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Balance Analysis Of Paul's Clan Design Perspective [My thoughts]


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#1 Jun Watarase

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:20 AM

Ignoring the fact that most of Paul's balance decisions have been atrocious (see : Paul economy that has made countless players quit), this is a analysis of Paul's post here in which he discusses how to balance clan tech.

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The other titles that had multiplayer components became arms races to get Clan Tech and once achieved, nothing changed from that point on.


What Paul fails to mention is that past MW titles either revolved around med laser boating (due to taking all stats straight from the tabletop (TT) version), or sniper loadouts, which was not a result of clan tech being superior, but the nature of pinpoint alphas in a game based off a TT game where pinpoint damage was impossible. He makes no mention of the fact that for more than half a year, MWO has been dominated by sniper loadouts and poptarting, which is honestly no different than MW4. There is a reason why more than half of every high ELO match is simply victors/highlanders with PPC/Ballistics and JJs.

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We are aiming to make sure that all types of gameplay are available while keeping all current BattleMechs viable on the battlefield.


And yet no attempt has been made to balance terrible mechs like the HBK-4G since closed beta started, 1.5 years ago. When was the last time you saw someone try and use a HBK-4G competitively? No, the 3 MG joke loadout does not count. Oh and we STILL have dual AC20 jagermechs. There are right now so many mech variants in the game but only about 10% of them are competitive, the rest are inferior choices. You have entire mechs that no sane person would use competitively. Funningly enough, this includes the Griffin (i have to seriously laugh at people who bought that).

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What the above changes allows to happen is that the Clan ER Large Laser still gets a reach buff, still gets to have higher damage, still gets the tonnage and space reduction but requires the player to hold targets longer and it will generate much more heat when Alpha’d. i.e. The weapon still keeps its Clan properties/feel but requires better skill and heat management to operate.


There are a few major problems with this comparison. Firstly, IS ER large lasers are pointless currently. They generate a ton of extra heat and their only advantage is extra range. Extra range is pointless unless you are sniping with it, but if you are sniping you would be using PPCs instead. Again, there is a reason why the most competitive build now is PPC/Ballistic victors/highlanders poptarting with JJs.

Secondly, holding the beam longer does not imply or require a "higher skill level" as Paul claims it does. It is INCREDIBLY easy to have your beam stay centered on an enemy CT unless it is a light mech going at 150 kph, using JJs or you are playing wtih 300 ms ping where the game actively refuses to have your shots hit (Paul, you really should try that once to see what the game is like). The only thing that a beam duration does is make it worse as a sniping weapon, since it forces you to be exposed, unlike PPCs. Also another reason why no sane person snipes with large lasers right now.

Thirdly, Paul makes zero mention of the fact that energy weapons are largely junk now compared to ballistics, because of the heat problem. Nobody will use clantech ER large lasers due to this. They will be mounting IS large lasers instead. Hell, right now you dont even see any sane person mount IS ER large lasers because of the increased heat for marginal benefit.

This design decision pretty much shows that Paul has no idea what goes on in current MWO matches. Otherwise he would not even be attempting to balance off the currently useless IS ER Large Laser.

Now let's look at how Paul wants to balance clan streaks.

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  • Allow only 2 projectiles to leave the launcher at any given time. SSRM-4 will fire 2 volleys of 2 missiles. SRM-6 will fire 3 volleys of 2 missiles. This will stagger the incoming missiles allowing AMS to take down more if the targeted Mech has AMS.
  • Increase the cooldown period of refire on the larger launchers and allow the above staggered shots to happen during this time.
Ok...first of all Paul is comparing IS Streak-2s with Clan Streak-4s and 6s. I have no idea why. It is a known fact that the SRM-2 and Streak-2 is a joke weapon in TT. Obviously any missle launcher that can fire more missles in the same time is going to be better, particularly at brawling range. The difference between Clan and IS Streak-2s is much lower.

Secondly Paul says that a advantage of Streaks is that it always hits. This completely ignores two things : The damage is VERY spread out, to the point that if you have 4 streak launchers firing 8 missles, at least 2 will always hit the legs. The current meta, has been snipers doing 40 pinpoint alphas to the CT for more than 6 months. Why? Because it is the most effective. Streaks literally have no purpose except to kill lights right now (and the only reason for THAT is because of terrible hit detection and lag compensation in the game). A mech loaded with streaks goes up against a mech loaded with pinpoint weapons...the latter will core the former with all his armor intact (albeit, sandblasted). Paul assumes that larger sized streak launchers will be OP....for the completely wrong reasons.

So Paul's solution is to make it easier for AMS to shoot down streaks. This has a couple of problems which he clearly missed :

1. Assuming streaks do become OP, it simply forces people to mount AMS to counter the OP streaks while screwing over every build without one.

2. Streak missles already do terrible damage unless boated and shooting at light mechs. Making it easier to shoot them down will make them even worse.

3. Most importantly of all, staggering the firing creates MORE cockpit shake. Oh boy, you thought a CPLT-A1 chain firing Streak-2s to stun lock you was bad? Now imagine 6 streak-6 launchers, chainfiring them in staggered volleys of 2 streaks each. I'm guessing Paul has never dropped in a match and gotten stun locked to death without being able to fight back. This will simply force people to mount AMS to try and counter stun locking (see point 1 above).

This is excluding the problems with Streaks that are well documented on the board, such as the inability to fire without a lock (easily exploitable by running in circles around a building to break LOS and constantly reset the lockon timer), the **** poor damage, the inability to do pinpoint damage in a meta entirely focused on pinpoint damage, easily neutralised by the typical ECM spam, etc....

Once again we see that Paul has no idea how Streaks work in the current meta and is making very incorrect assumptions about it. Doesn't look like a good future for clan streaks.

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The fact that the Clan version of LRM-20s have no minimum range is a huge problem. What you effectively now have is a Streak SRM-20 available to you if we cut minimum range to 0. The fact that this weapon weighs half as much and takes up 1 less slot makes this a significantly over powered system.
The following will probably be applied to this weapon system:


Actually, no it's not. Paul is making a number of incorrect assumptions here (again).

1. The fact that LRMs are unable to do pinpoint damage in a meta entirely focused on doing pinpoint damage is already a huge disadvantage.

2. Not all 20 missles hit currently, even if AMS is not around and the mech is out in the open. This is especially true for fast mechs.

3. Having a streak SRM-20 means nothing if they are easily countered like regular streaks.

4. It doesn't matter if a mech can mount 120 clan LRMs with no minimum range, they will still be unable to do anything to victors/highlanders hiding behind buildings and sniping. Because all the missles will impact uselessly into the building.

5. LRMs currently do so little damage that even Cicadas can tank 150+ Artemis LRMs in the open. Yes, i tested this.

However Paul is correct in that compared strictly to IS LRMs, clan LRMs would be OP. But he ignores the fact that IS LRMs are worthless in the current sniper meta. He's making the huge mistake of comparing two single weapon systems without considering how they work in the actual game with all choices available.

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Now the weapon system still keeps it “no-minimum” range property and it still keeps a weight reduction and generates a little more heat. Again, this will translate into better piloting skills, fire timing and heat management to take full advantage of the Clan LRM-20.


Im wondering where Paul is getting the idea that this would somehow translate to better skills or heat management. No LRM boat currently relies on any of these. It's not like LRMs are a heat intensive weapon or anything, considering that it has 1000m range and you should be firing it indirectly, where you can safely wait to cool down.

Now let's look at Paul's omnimechs.

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Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:
  • The engine type and rating
  • The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  • The amount and distribution of armor
  • The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  • The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  • Enhancements such as MASC
  • The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration
Ok first of all, being able to switch out hardpoints, is a cool and fluffy idea. The problem is in the restrictions. Many clan mechs have absolutely terrible loadouts....in regards to engine type, rating, number and placement of heatsinks, amount and distribution of armor....you see where i'm going with this. Let's look at some of the clan mechs that are being released :

Uller (Kit Fox) Prime :

#2 Alcom Isst

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:35 AM

View PostPaul Inouye said:

However, it doesn’t have any missile hardpoints and you really want to be able to fit a Narc Beacon to help out your teammates with their LRMs.


...and the nerve of the guy to suggest that NARC Beacons are at all helpful.

#3 Accurs3D

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostAlcom Isst, on 15 December 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:


...and the nerve of the guy to suggest that NARC Beacons are at all helpful.


Whoa are you suggesting that he actually knows anything about the game?

#4 Henry Morgan

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:52 AM

Posted Image

#5 MisterPlanetarian

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:13 AM

90% of your post is just impotent rage. Not one of your outtakes come with a serious conter proposal. Pauls Clan stuff needs quite a bit of tuning to say the least and i agree with you on that. But I am quite sure he will litsen to feedback since he mentioned no less than twice that it was not final by a long shot, why does it not suprise me that you missed that bit?


My advice: Take a break, go watch the hobbit or something and come back after the holidays when you get your DX11 UI2.0. Thats exactly what I am doing.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 15 December 2013 - 05:13 AM.


#6 Stormyblade

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:13 AM

I see the same problems as you do with what Paul is proposing as balance. I also see him getting worried that those people with extra money floating around in their pockets would be able to perform the dreaded "Pay 2 Win" action by purchasing any of the Clan 'mech packs and then they would completely obliterate everyone else with the superior Clan tech. The playerbase would immediately drop to those willing to fork out *insanely* high prices for more 'mechs (good Lord, $500 for a gold 'mech?!? Seriously??) and those who just casually play would stop buying anything, dropping the revenue to a trickle. I hate the idea that Clan tech is going to be butchered just so that we can appease the masses and keep everyone happy and not drive away potential revenue.

I'll also point out that there are several of us that have poured plenty of money into this game and still don't have the game we were promised months and months ago. I'm sure that is akin to beating a dead horse to many, but it needs to be said over and over until the game has progressed to anywhere beyond where it is now.

#7 nonplusultra

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:41 AM

I suggest: Do the balancing with tonnage limit.
For example if u playing a clanmech your tonnage will be multiplied by a factor x, lets say 1,5.
So the overall tonnage of the company who has a clanmech in it would decrease.
Example: 700t against 675t (with one clan mech in the company).

#8 HATER 1

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:46 AM

Way back in closed beta, I made a singular decision to keep my money when the first foolish choices were made- single shot AC's, lasers with excessive beam durations, and small weapons that out damaged their heavier counterparts over time..... all for the sake of dumbing this game down for the masses that won't pick this game up.

Now, the detuning continues, and it is done (again) in a manner that makes no sense (gauss desynch, ppc-ECM interaction, now those evil clans!). All for the sake of balance. In a simulator. That is made on the bones of a first person shooter.

I keep hoping I will come across a group that wants to correct mod save this game.

The thought of mixed IS and Clan tech team mates together on a regular basis is warning enough for me of the foolishness about to take place.

Edited by HATER 1, 15 December 2013 - 05:48 AM.


#9 ZippySpeedMonkey

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:39 AM

View PostMisterPlanetarian, on 15 December 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

90% of your post is just impotent rage. Not one of your outtakes come with a serious conter proposal. Pauls Clan stuff needs quite a bit of tuning to say the least and i agree with you on that. But I am quite sure he will litsen to feedback since he mentioned no less than twice that it was not final by a long shot, why does it not suprise me that you missed that bit?


My advice: Take a break, go watch the hobbit or something and come back after the holidays when you get your DX11 UI2.0. Thats exactly what I am doing.



Listen to the man...PGI to date has stuck almost perfectly to their stated goals for both feature and time of implementation.......oh wait........

#10 Viges

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:55 AM

I don't mind the design critique but that kind of the person critique is a really mean thing...

#11 St4LkeRxF

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 07:35 AM

They make 7.1 surround from Catapult because they think it was needed, nothing will stop them to put umbrella on Timberwolf missile bay to protect it from sun and rain so why you think they will listen to anyone about how to balance clans

#12 Fate 6

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 07:51 AM

Yeah, we honestly need hardpoint sizes like in MWT. Then they can make Clans be true Omni (which is basically what the MWT mechs are). We also need to not have variants simply to increase the time it takes us to grind to Master XP. Clans only have one version of every mech, thanks.

#13 Lucian Nostra

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 07:52 AM

I disagree with you ER LL assumption, your right that you don't see them in 12 mans because they don't fit the current meta to a T there but they are still heavily used and are pretty good weapons (1.5 more heat isn't boatloads) 4 ERLL Stalkers and Battlemasters are very strong, just not dual PPC/AC poptart strong.

But I agree with the Streak problem, it's relying to much on AMS to counter it and ignoring the earthquakes the ripple firing is going to cause and ignoring how they splatter everywhere on the mechs. Really not sure what else they can do though with Clan streaks.

Armor and Engines I have to agree with my friend was pointing out lastnight that a lof the clan mechs coming run about 80% of the max armor which DOES sound good until you realize that nothing is maxed out with less on the legs like just about every mech in MWO has.

The Kit Fox will really suffer with it's 18 CT armor and 16 leg armor, and a 97.2 kph top speed. IE a little less armor than a locust while going less than half the speed but carrying more weapons. hmmm..

Ammo storage is going to be another nightmare like you said as well since it will be in the torso's and arms unlike all our IS machines running it safely in the legs and Head.

So on about fixed crits not allowing fits to work well. OH you want that weapon there? sorry but there's a FF critical in the way.

and sub-optimal upgrades like you said again on the Summoner, FF on it but not endo. How many Sphere mechs came with FF and not endo and we promptly swapped it out?

edit: They did say it was subject to change but for the moment a lot of the ideas are short sighted, they sound good at first but when you really look into them you see where it falls apart pretty fast

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 15 December 2013 - 07:57 AM.


#14 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:04 AM

I can agree with most of the concerns, though I am personally not a fan of personal attacks.

I have to disagree that beam duration is irrelevant for precision. It is irrelevant on stationary targets or at least targets that don't torso twist, but most people cannot hold their beam steady for the entirety of the duration. You can check it yourself with your profile stats - compare the potential damage output (shots fired x damage per shot) with the actual damage inflicted, and you'll probably see that your lasers results are worse than with pinpoint weapons if rate of fire of the weapons are not very different (E.g. you'll probably have worse results with AC/2s and Ultra AC/5s compared to LLs or MLs, but AC/20s and AC/10 will be better than LL, ER LL and ML.)

#15 Lefty Lucy

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:04 AM

Regardless of how missiles stack up against ballistics/PPCs, half-weight, no-minimum-range LRM launchers are still just straight up more powerful than the IS version, which is where the crux of the issue lies. When they announced that they were going to break canon in order to keep IS and Clan tech balanced I assumed they were serious. Right now they're just talking half-measures.

These half-measures are going to leave the game in a place where several hundred dollars gets you early access to mechs that are straight-up more powerful.

Edited by Lefty Lucy, 15 December 2013 - 08:06 AM.


#16 FupDup

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostLefty Lucy, on 15 December 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Regardless of how missiles stack up against ballistics/PPCs, half-weight, no-minimum-range LRM launchers are still just straight up more powerful than the IS version, which is where the crux of the issue lies. When they announced that they were going to break canon in order to keep IS and Clan tech balanced I assumed they were serious. Right now they're just talking half-measures.

These half-measures are going to leave the game in a place where several hundred dollars gets you early access to mechs that are straight-up more powerful.

The weapons seem stronger from what we've been told so far, but the customization is a complete downgrade from IS Battlemechs. Virtually every single Omnimech ever made has very poorly distributed armor, such as having maxed leg armor on heavies and assaults or only 16 leg armor on the Kit Fox. They also have unfavorable engine sizes at times (Clan lights, I'm looking at you!) and other hardwired disadvantages like the Puma's head-mounted Flamer (which it utterly fucklng useless in MWO because Flamers only output 0.2 heat per second on the target, which is the same as removing one enemy DHS).

Basically, they have superior technology but inferior mechs. The only question is, will the tech be borked enough to make up for the lack of customization? Only time will tell.

Edited by FupDup, 15 December 2013 - 08:11 AM.


#17 AlexEss

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostAlcom Isst, on 15 December 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:


...and the nerve of the guy to suggest that NARC Beacons are at all helpful.


I think it was intended as a light-hearted joke. Seriously people do you work hard at being offended or does it come naturally.

#18 3rdworld

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:12 AM

Paul should be banned from balancing the game, not because of his thoughts on Clan tech. But the state of MWO.

It is awful.

Edited by 3rdworld, 15 December 2013 - 08:15 AM.


#19 Mcgral18

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:16 AM

Don't forget extra ghost heat!

And 2.5 damage SSRMs, and 2.0 SRMs...LOGIC.

#20 Khobai

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:45 AM

Quote

I disagree with you ER LL assumption, your right that you don't see them in 12 mans because they don't fit the current meta to a T there but they are still heavily used and are pretty good weapons (1.5 more heat isn't boatloads) 4 ERLL Stalkers and Battlemasters are very strong, just not dual PPC/AC poptart strong.


The problem is PPCs are better. The solution to that is simply to nerf PPCs. Make them do splash damage so they spread damage in a similar but different way than lasers. Then lower PPC heat back to sane levels. And get rid of ghost heat.





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