47 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

I'm so tired of every time (because this exact same suggestion was made when PP was announced) a new package hits there's some that feel like for some reason they deserve it for free because they bought an earlier package. This dates all the way back to CB and founders clamoring for free {Scrap} because they "deserved" it.
You bought a completely different pack, mech, etc. for a completely different price point.

[Ryvucz]

Greyboots, on 17 December 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

There's a difference between "forced" and "want to" of course but...

Look, I don't really see the help or the harm in the situation. When clan launches, presumably there will be enough mechs to choose from to put together teams. I'm betting on the initial release following the structure of the clan package with an early release followed by the Uller, Black Hawk, Thor and Daishi all available for cBills all together shortly after.

But... There's been people waiting on the clans for a long time too. While I don't think a "trade-in" is warranted? I can certainly see a Founders bonus being worthwhile. Make a "founders" variant of each of the first 4 mechs and give them to them.

Let them get off to a running start on the clans as a nod and a wink.

Sure, I can understand that.

But our nod and wink were the C-Bills boosts, and choice of which mech, if you went above the Veteran mark.

People have 6 months to save up for a Clan package. - June 17th 2014. (not including the rest of this month)

I think that's more than enough time.

The packages are the "founders" for the Clans. Just like Phoenix was in the same regard.

Sure, everyone would love to choose and pick which mechs they want instead.

They might have done it this way to prevent all matches consisting of nothing but Timber Wolf mechs. (Speculation)

[Nasty McBadman]

Sandpit, on 17 December 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

I'm so tired of every time (because this exact same suggestion was made when PP was announced) a new package hits there's some that feel like for some reason they deserve it for free because they bought an earlier package. This dates all the way back to CB and founders clamoring for free {Scrap} because they "deserved" it.
You bought a completely different pack, mech, etc. for a completely different price point.

I understand your point of view and your fatigue, it has been a long grind. I do not think that my idea is the same though (perhaps my own delusion). If the clans are to be completely distinct and seperate from IS units, there are going to need to be a sizable number of clan players (I am not going to be one of them). I am sure there are players that from DAY ONE were supporting this game to be those clan players. They have backed this game with IS packages just waiting for the time when the clans invade. Maybe they will not mind the rather steep paywall, maybe they will not mind the now unusable IS mechs in their mechbays. I am not making a plea for free content or "entitlement", I am only positing and idea that I think would gain PGI/IGP some possible traction in the uphill PR / player retention battle they need to face. I want to see the game do well and I personally want to face good clan mechwarriors.

[Nasty McBadman]

Ryvucz, on 17 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

They mentioned you will not be forced to play a "side" exclusively.

So, no.

I must have missed this information, any details or source you could point me towards would be appreciated, thanks.
My idea was working on the premise that a clan player would be using a completely different set of resources and technology than IS. If it will be playing Mix-N-Match and I will have a possible clan lance in my drop or worse still, if I am able to use clan tech and mechs as an IS mechwarrior that will be HORRIBLE.

[Sandpit]

Nasty McBadman, on 18 December 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I understand your point of view and your fatigue, it has been a long grind. I do not think that my idea is the same though (perhaps my own delusion). If the clans are to be completely distinct and seperate from IS units, there are going to need to be a sizable number of clan players (I am not going to be one of them). I am sure there are players that from DAY ONE were supporting this game to be those clan players. They have backed this game with IS packages just waiting for the time when the clans invade. Maybe they will not mind the rather steep paywall, maybe they will not mind the now unusable IS mechs in their mechbays. I am not making a plea for free content or "entitlement", I am only positing and idea that I think would gain PGI/IGP some possible traction in the uphill PR / player retention battle they need to face. I want to see the game do well and I personally want to face good clan mechwarriors.

I understand what you're saying and the idea behind it, I just don't agree with it. I'm not pointing a finger at you directly but there's a huge sense of entitlement that runs rampant through this community. Someone always feels they "deserve" something for free because they've been "loyal" by buying a few things or because they spent money, so that every time a new pack comes out we inevitably get the "I should get some of this for free because I bought something a year ago"
I think it would be great if PGI would actually give a nod to those that have spent money and supported the game and actually have events and such as a way for all players (free and paid both) to win a little MC every now and then or colors, camos, etc.
PGI's customer service, care, communication, etc. are the biggest problem I really have with the company. Sometimes it really feels like we're here to serve them instead of the other way around. The entitlement mentality runs both ways. Sometimes they seem to think WE owe THEM something for making a Btech game and that we should be grateful that they are giving us something as opposed to being a business that is producing a game for customers and commercial consumption.

[Nasty McBadman]

Sandpit, on 18 December 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I understand what you're saying and the idea behind it, I just don't agree with it. I'm not pointing a finger at you directly but there's a huge sense of entitlement that runs rampant through this community. Someone always feels they "deserve" something for free because they've been "loyal" by buying a few things or because they spent money, so that every time a new pack comes out we inevitably get the "I should get some of this for free because I bought something a year ago"
I think it would be great if PGI would actually give a nod to those that have spent money and supported the game and actually have events and such as a way for all players (free and paid both) to win a little MC every now and then or colors, camos, etc.
PGI's customer service, care, communication, etc. are the biggest problem I really have with the company. Sometimes it really feels like we're here to serve them instead of the other way around. The entitlement mentality runs both ways. Sometimes they seem to think WE owe THEM something for making a Btech game and that we should be grateful that they are giving us something as opposed to being a business that is producing a game for customers and commercial consumption.

I have seen a big bunch of this "entitlement" so I understand exactly what you are saying. Maybe it is a bit of that same "entitlement" that I am expressing (I will have to think about that). Maybe I am being selfish in wanting the game to have a sort of a resurgence. I want there to be a real "clan invasion" to fight against. Maybe I am being too pessimistic about people not wanting to "hop that paywall" to get into clan mechs. I guess I just want PGI to be able to turn the tide of public opinion too. I have not heard much being said nice about them lately. It may not be that I think early pledge package buyers "deserve" or are "entitled" to have a swap, it just makes sense to me to have a large number of players (half? one third?) as clan in order to make the invasion formidable. If many long time backers are not willing to go all in (again) to switch from IS to clan, I am uncertain as to the longevity of MWO if the clan invasion is a bust.

[Sandpit]

Nasty McBadman, on 18 December 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Maybe I am being too pessimistic about people not wanting to "hop that paywall" to get into clan mechs.

If PGI hadn't "screwed the pooch" on development deadlines they wouldn't be able to keep up with the clan pack orders in my opinion. Trust me, there are TONS of players that would be all over that package if they had more confidence in the company at this point and had received more of the game and a finished product. There would be no "paywall", there might be a "omg we're rich and I can go buy that lambo and hummer now" from Russ because people would be throwing money at them for those sexy clan mechs.
Wallets are closing because of they way PGI has handled the game and customers, not because of the price point. $10/mech is a great deal in my opinion. $240 for an incomplete game developed by a company that has repeatedly engaged in deceitful and underhanded business practices when dealing with their customers is not.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm so tired of every time (because this exact same suggestion was made when PP was announced) a new package hits there's some that feel like for some reason they deserve it for free because they bought an earlier package.

Not because we bought an earlier package. Because PGI screwed up and needs to restablish good faith with their long-term supporters. A free gift accomplishes that at minimal cost to PGI (minimal compared to what good faith is worth when its in short supply)

I got everything I paid for with founders and phoenix. Im perfectly happy with those purchases. But im not happy about PGI continually missing their deadlines and ive completely lost faith in them. A free gift could help restore that faith. Thats what devs are supposed to do when they screw up, admit they screwed up, then bribe their players with free stuff... thats how the industry works.

The cost of giving everyone whos stuck with the game a free mech, like a vulture, is trivial compared to the upside of restoring good faith and mending the relationship between publisher/developer and customer. Without a show of good faith theres no reason to believe anything IGP/PGI tells us. Its what any sane dev would do in this situation.

Edited by Khobai, 18 December 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Rhaythe]

PGI now owes Phoenix Package owners loyalty points and in-game badges, but nothing else. PGI owes Founders nothing.

Being a Founder or Phoenix owner or buying MC or Sara's Mech or whatever does not make you a shareholder. It makes you a client. Anything PGI dotes out for free (such as the 1 free day of premium a few weeks back) is icing, and nothing more.

Clammoring for free stuff because of <insert random justification here> just sounds petty and disgruntled. I'm sorry.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI now owes Phoenix Package owners loyalty points and in-game badges, but nothing else. PGI owes Founders nothing.

Agreed but they DO owe everyone whos paid money for this game a show of good faith. That includes everyone from founders to phoenix pack owners to everyone whos ever bought any MC.

[Rhaythe]

I will agree with you that it's frustrating to see deadline after deadline pass by without UI2.0 or DX11 or whatever else feature we've all been expecting come to fruition. However, these are self-imposed deadlines that are mostly drawn in the sand. Features slip. Plans change. UI2.0 was said to be 4 weeks out, and then when the first public test hit, the community outlash was furious. And rightly so. It sucked.

But that was a deadline drawn in the sand and announced at a launch event.

While I'd love to see these products come alive, and will probably not spend any more money on this game until a few do, expecting PGI to start dishing out merchandise (let's be honest - for a virtual product, MC and mechs and camos and expendables and whatever else are exactly that. Merchandise) is silly.

[Hop per]

Its an expansion. You have been playing it, you have used it. You dont get to swap your car out when a newer model comes out.

They need to make money, we need them to make money so they keep creating content. But I think I am with Rhaythe on this. I will keep playing, but I think I am done spending money until there is some clear advances in the game. We know they can make Mechs, and they have even improved on them. We know they can create maps. What they have not proved is that they can take us to the next level of game experience. And although I think they can, I am in a place that I need to see it, and not just hear about it.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Agreed but they DO owe everyone whos paid money for this game a show of good faith. That includes everyone from founders to phoenix pack owners to everyone whos ever bought any MC.

I don't think they OWE any players anything. I do, however, think it would be smart on their part to pony up a bit and say "Hey, we want your money, we know we've screwed up and that many of you aren't giving us your money now because of the history of events. We value your patronage, input, and loyalty and to show that here's a free weekend of premium and a custom camo to all players that have joined prior to December 1 2013 and have logged in at least once in the past 6 months"

That right there? That's how you promote, being to repair your image, and show your customers they are valuable to you. It's not they "owe" me anything but they DO need to show me more than a few written words on a screen saying they're "sorry" again. I've been there done that with them. I appreciate Russ' candid post but at this point I just simply do not believe the sincerity.

At launch they said "Hey, we're sorry its' taken so long but CW is 90 days away!" (Knowing this to be completely and utterly false)

At OB they said "Hey, we're sorry it's taken so long but CW is 90 days away! We needed to launch to open beta because of "player fatigue" but please believe we will have this stuff done soon"(knowing this to be completely false)

At CB they said "Hey, we're sorry it's taken so long but CW is 90 days away!" (Knowing this to be completely false)

As far as I'm concerned at this point, "Hey we're sorry it's taken so long but here's a REAL time frame for CW" is just another "Hey, we promise we're gonna do better this time and we're sorry but hey buy our Clan pack because we really mean it this time"

They did the exact same thing for PP. They increased their communication a bit. They acted like everything was hunky dory with progression rates. The reality is they weren't even pushing production on things like CW because they didn't know what was going to happen with the license and they gave this facade of giving a {Scrap} and of communication to placate the player base so they would feel more comfortable with buying PP.

Even if all of what I just wrote is completely inaccurate, that would be completely irrelevant at this point. Many share the same exact view and perception of PGI at the moment, regardless of accuracy. My perceptions and opinions dictate my spending habits.

[Rhaythe]

And you would be perfectly in your right to not give them another penny. Heck, I encourage that. While I find the N.O.P.E. drive in a few players' sigs amusing, I fully endorse the notion. You vote with your wallet.

That said...

Sandpit, on 18 December 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't think they OWE any players anything. I do, however, think it would be smart on their part...

That right there is PR. Not business. You can argue one incorporates the other, but *expecting* a recompense because of perceived afronts makes no sense.

Again, dont' get me wrong. I think it would a long way to pacifying this community if some small token was given out. But let's be honest here. No one is deserved anything, and really, people would keep griping and complaining no matter what was given out.

[Sandpit]

Rhaythe, on 18 December 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

And you would be perfectly in your right to not give them another penny. Heck, I encourage that. While I find the N.O.P.E. drive in a few players' sigs amusing, I fully endorse the notion. You vote with your wallet.

That said...


That right there is PR. Not business. You can argue one incorporates the other, but *expecting* a recompense because of perceived afronts makes no sense.

Again, dont' get me wrong. I think it would a long way to pacifying this community if some small token was given out. But let's be honest here. No one is deserved anything, and really, people would keep griping and complaining no matter what was given out.

exactly

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't think they OWE any players anything

Two different threads with 400+ pages of complaints says otherwise. Players feel upset, betrayed, and outraged. PGI screwed up, denying that is impossible. And the cheapest way for PGI to earn back good faith is to throw free stuff at their players. There is nothing shameful about it, other devs do it all the time when they screw up, its quite common.

[Rhaythe]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Two different threads with 400+ pages of complaints says otherwise. Players feel upset, betrayed, and outraged. PGI screwed up, denying that is impossible. And the cheapest way for PGI to earn back good faith is to throw free stuff at their players. There is nothing shameful about it, other devs do it all the time when they screw up, its quite common.

Rhaythe, on 18 December 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Again, dont' get me wrong. I think it would a long way to pacifying this community if some small token was given out. But let's be honest here. No one is deserved anything, and really, people would keep griping and complaining no matter what was given out.

[Sandpit]

Sandpit, on 18 December 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't think they OWE any players anything. I do, however, think it would be smart on their part to pony up a bit and say "Hey, we want your money, we know we've screwed up and that many of you aren't giving us your money now because of the history of events. We value your patronage, input, and loyalty and to show that here's a free weekend of premium and a custom camo to all players that have joined prior to December 1 2013 and have logged in at least once in the past 6 months"

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Two different threads with 400+ pages of complaints says otherwise. Players feel upset, betrayed, and outraged. PGI screwed up, denying that is impossible. And the cheapest way for PGI to earn back good faith is to throw free stuff at their players. There is nothing shameful about it, other devs do it all the time when they screw up, its quite common.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nasty McBadman, on 17 December 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I am not convinced that PGI would not take the "High Road" on this and allow package holders to convert their investment in the game to clan equivalents. Otherwise those that would choose to switch to clans would have wasted investment in the game in the shape of IS mechs.

I asked to be able to have a Battlemaster(read: one) instead of My (F)Atlas come Feb. They denied me politely.

[Sean von Steinike]

No. I particularly laugh at Founders with Phoenix packages since you have no excuses about knowing which way this game is going.