215 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

van Uber, on 20 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'll give you the benefit of doubt. I'm not here to claim you're lying. I'm possibly inclined to say you're wrong. But to make that assessment, I need to know what you actually are comparing MWO to. You claim it is on the same lever of complexity, yet you also claim it in some aspects are based on real environments. That is what I take issue with, because real environments, to me, indicates possibly a high level of detail, not the complexity of bending and shaping crowd behaviour.

So based on what you have revealed of this AAA game, I can only assume you compare apples and oranges. Now if I would know what actual game you compare with, that assumption could change.

Also, it would be nice if you could address my claim that DICE is on a somewhat comparable pace with PGI, rather than yours. Frankly I was under the impression that this pace was the industry norm, based on what I know and have seen from Swedish developers like DICE and Massive. That and the fact that it fits quite well with the pace of other developers and titles. Wargaming comes to mind: World of Tanks had a similar pace of releasing maps in beta. Why do you think that is?

They are not moving slow as far as im concerned. The roadmap they made for this year has major updates almost every month. That's a fine pace for game deving

[BLOOD WOLF]

Alistair Winter, on 15 December 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Ill never get over this, too funny

[Zolaz]

I so believe everything PGI tells me. They are very nice people who never lie or misrepresent the truth. They are always forthcoming with information and never say a mean word about anyone. You can tell by their actions how much the game means to them and how it comes before money every time. PGI is super industrious with their noses to the grind stone foregoing things like vacations because they promised something.

So get on out there island dwellers, dont let consumables or third person view or Community Warfare in 90 days or ghost heat or Founders' package money that went to a totally different game or 500 dollar mechs or outrageously over priced clan packages or a lackadaisical timetable only a year and a half behind schedule get you down.

Give PGI some more money ... they deserve it.

[Roadkill]

van Uber, on 20 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

real environments, to me, indicates possibly a high level of detail, not the complexity of bending and shaping crowd behaviour.

Perhaps I'm just pessimistic, but I don't believe that PGI has spent very much time on the "complexity" of bending and shaping crowd behavior. The existing maps look, to me, like pretty basic maps that have had only minor tuning passes done on them. Something that a decent level designer could have laid down on the first pass. (I actually like most of the maps, so I'm not at all saying they're bad. Just that I don't see a high degree of crowd behavior tuning in them.)

You are correct that real-world maps don't require this tuning pass, but it seems like you're missing the fact that real-world maps require massively more effort to match the real-world environment they're replicating. Time wise, in my experience, precisely duplicating something that actually exists is much more time consuming than creating something from scratch. Especially when the fans of the franchise are, well, fanatical about detail.

Quote

Also, it would be nice if you could address my claim that DICE is on a somewhat comparable pace with PGI, rather than yours. Frankly I was under the impression that this pace was the industry norm, based on what I know and have seen from Swedish developers like DICE and Massive. That and the fact that it fits quite well with the pace of other developers and titles. Wargaming comes to mind: World of Tanks had a similar pace of releasing maps in beta. Why do you think that is?

Pace != cost. I think their pace is fine... it's their cost that I question. I know that maps and Mechs can be produced for less cost than they've claimed. Whether or not you want to produce them faster is an entirely different (and almost unrelated) question.

[GrumpyGhost]

If you don't enjoy the game. Stop playing. Don't like the price then don't pay it. Anyone remember Diable 3? We waited more than 2 years from the original announce release date and Blizzard is beloved by all........

I enjoy the game and donate my money to help develope and spend my time playing because its the only MW platform available. If you play and don't spend money, then how about you say thank you to the rest of us and shut up. We will keep playing and donating to a product we enjoy and won't have to you trying to screw it up.

We all know who you are........as you are the db's that interupt in game chat to tell us how aweful the game you are playing is. Partiipate or go design your own platform. If it is better, we will come play it.

Go back to your WoW account that you spent you paycheck on and leave us alone.

[TruePoindexter]

GrumpyGhost, on 01 March 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

If you don't enjoy the game. Stop playing. Don't like the price then don't pay it. Anyone remember Diable 3? We waited more than 2 years from the original announce release date and Blizzard is beloved by all........

I enjoy the game and donate my money to help develope and spend my time playing because its the only MW platform available. If you play and don't spend money, then how about you say thank you to the rest of us and shut up. We will keep playing and donating to a product we enjoy and won't have to you trying to screw it up.

We all know who you are........as you are the db's that interupt in game chat to tell us how aweful the game you are playing is. Partiipate or go design your own platform. If it is better, we will come play it.

Go back to your WoW account that you spent you paycheck on and leave us alone.

I did support the game once upon a time. I published videos to help players with complex mech builds. I brought on friends to try the game out. I played my heart out with thousands of games logged since closed beta. I dedicated time to teaching people how to play as much as I could both in game and out. I sponsored the founders program and because of my work schedule which kept me from grinding CBills I purchased a fair amount of MC to get mechs at a reasonable pace.

After all that PGI wants me to buy $500 gold mechs from them now which implies that they spent/are spending time developing these things and not the CW/match maker that I actually want. Plus there's a history of them either not delivering on promised features or flat out lying about what they were going to deliver.

I stopped paying at the overlord packages but kept playing a little. At this point I haven't touched the game in months and come back periodically hoping to see some glimmer of hope. Some spark that maybe - just maybe - my favorite game franchise could deliver on the magic that I used to revel in back in MW2/MW3/MW4. Then I find out that despite months passing almost nothing has changed for the better regarding gameplay but hey - you can buy this new thing here!

You'll have to excuse those of us who fall into that group for being a bit upset.

[Sephlock]

Roadkill, on 20 February 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

What difference does it make? You (or someone else) would just claim that I'm lying, much as you're implying that I'm doing right now.

It was very successful multiplayer AAA game. Our 3D models were highly customizable, including both cosmetic (visual) and performance (non-visual) mods, though not in exactly the same way as MWO Mechs. If anything, fans of that franchise are more fanatical than fans of MWO because there's actually competition for their attention within the genre. There isn't a real alternative to MWO.

If you need more than that then telling you the name of the game won't actually convince you of anything because you've already made up your mind.

You're a Japanese guy who worked on the Armored Core series?

[PaintedWolf]

Never mind the Gold Mech is purely cosmetic.

[Colonel Fubar]

And that post certainly does speak for itself and this MWO member.
A passage from "Bloodname (Book Two) from the Way of the Clans Trilogy" I think sum's it up best in regards to PGI Golden Clan Mechs.

"Nor would warriors give their Mechs glamorous refurbishing designed to produce a breath taking and radiant Battlemech whose purpose was more to impress than to fight with efficiency."

[Nick Makiaveli]

Just to reiterate, that article is poorly written, and full of misinformation. My guess is that Forbes wanted a gaming column and grabbed the nearest intern, or the CEO's nephew needed a job.

[color=#000000]You could never grind your way to the best looking mechs for sale, meaning to ever get from the tier you’d have to spend anywhere from $5 to $30 or[/color][color=#000000] more in real life money.[/color]

I mean the grammar above is atrocious.

The he goes on to say that the Clan pack "amplified" this problem which is nonsense since all those mechs will be available for C-bills later on.

It's ignorant and irresponsible journalism like this that exacerbates the ignorant and irresponsible nonsense that is rampant on the forums.

I mean seriously, stop the whining. If you are poor, then fix it. Grow a pair and work to better yourself and your chances of making more money. Trying to remove opportunities from those that can afford them doesn't help anyone. You still don't have the new toys, or they are no longer anything special. I mean I own ALL THREE LOCUSTS!!! How ******* special am I!!! When the DHS upgrade costs as much as the mech, it's not exactly a big deal. So if the gold mechs cost $5 they wouldn't exactly be a big deal.

[Dawnstealer]

As a heads up, that section of Forbes is a lot like the op-ed section of a newspaper. Huffpo has the same thing. Basically ANYONE can go on there and write an article and there isn't much checking, editing, or even vetting of the author beyond "I want to write an article and it has something to do with money." "Okay."

[Nick Makiaveli]

Dawnstealer, on 10 March 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

As a heads up, that section of Forbes is a lot like the op-ed section of a newspaper. Huffpo has the same thing. Basically ANYONE can go on there and write an article and there isn't much checking, editing, or even vetting of the author beyond "I want to write an article and it has something to do with money." "Okay."

Well that explains a lot. So in other words, some douchebag from the forums went over there and posted his rant.

[Rebas Kradd]

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

After all that PGI wants me to buy $500 gold mechs from them now...

No, they don't. Those are collectors' items and nobody's expecting the majority of players to purchase those, or even to shell out a thin dime for this game. Stop being sensational.

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

...which implies that they spent/are spending time developing these things and not the CW/match maker that I actually want.

Yeah, God forbid they should work on the things that get their families fed. This isn't a charity.

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Plus there's a history of them either not delivering on promised features or flat out lying about what they were going to deliver.

There is no such history. Falling short of deadlines and changing philosophies midstream are both common hallmarks of complex software projects. It was always going to be that way, and if you're one of the people who shelled out when the devs were overexciting themselves back during 2011, all I can say is "buyer beware".

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

At this point I haven't touched the game in months and come back periodically hoping to see some glimmer of hope. Some spark that maybe - just maybe - my favorite game franchise could deliver on the magic that I used to revel in back in MW2/MW3/MW4.

God, I hope they don't do that. MW2 was a repetitive clickfest and completely bonkered in terms of balance. MW4 was a hill-humping contest. I'm more and more convinced that some people's definition of balance is completely screwy.

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Then I find out that despite months passing almost nothing has changed for the better regarding gameplay

Except, you know, 12v12, new maps, new mechs, and a new game mode, arty/artillery, balance changes to several weapons as well as NARC, new modules, normalizations of hill climb and jump jets, turrets, etc.

TruePoindexter, on 03 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

You'll have to excuse those of us who fall into that group for being a bit upset.

Not really. You're misrepresenting the game's issues to the point of flat-out lying, completely failing to put anything into context (yes, they're going to monetize things), and projecting your disagreement with 3PV, consumables, etc. into areas where such dynamics don't belong at all. I have no control over whether you play or pay anymore, but you and your ilk are spreading disinformation about the game and I wish you'd stop.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 10 March 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Fut]

Rebas Kradd, on 10 March 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

No, they don't. Those are collectors' items and nobody's expecting the majority of players to purchase those, or even to shell out a thin dime for this game. Stop being sensational.

Technically though, it's not a collector's item because you cannot purchase these anywhere other than the original supplier, and you cannot sell them to other collectors (imagine a baseball card, undeniably a collector's item, that you cannot sell to anybody,ever.. not much of a collectible).

Also, people had better take screen caps of their precious Gold Mechs... If MWO ever goes belly up, their beloved collectible will cease to be.

So really, they're just wishful thinking on PGI's part.
Honestly, I can't think of anything else, with regards to these Gold Mechs, besides the fact that the Devs must be sitting around holding their breath, praying that a few people will be foolish enough to purchase them.

Edited by Fut, 10 March 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Rebas Kradd, on 10 March 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

No, they don't. Those are collectors' items and nobody's expecting the majority of players to purchase those, or even to shell out a thin dime for this game. Stop being sensational.

Yeah, God forbid they should work on the things that get their families fed. This isn't a charity.

There is no such history. Falling short of deadlines and changing philosophies midstream are both common hallmarks of complex software projects. It was always going to be that way, and if you're one of the people who shelled out when the devs were overexciting themselves back during 2011, all I can say is "buyer beware".

God, I hope they don't do that. MW2 was a repetitive clickfest and completely bonkered in terms of balance. MW4 was a hill-humping contest. I'm more and more convinced that some people's definition of balance is completely screwy.

Except, you know, 12v12, new maps, new mechs, and a new game mode, arty/artillery, balance changes to several weapons as well as NARC, new modules, normalizations of hill climb and jump jets, turrets, etc.

Not really. You're misrepresenting the game's issues to the point of flat-out lying, completely failing to put anything into context (yes, they're going to monetize things), and projecting your disagreement with 3PV, consumables, etc. into areas where such dynamics don't belong at all. I have no control over whether you play or pay anymore, but you and your ilk are spreading disinformation about the game and I wish you'd stop.

Where to begin....

• Yes, I think we all understand that the $500 mechs are not expected to be purchased by everyone. Vanity products like these exist for people with more money than sense. That doesn't mean the rest of us don't find it an insult to ask for that much money on a digital product.
  
• We understand that. Obviously we don't have a problem with that (see the founder tags). We have a problem with being told that they are working on something (Community Warfare and others) only to find out two years later they haven't actually started working on it at all. That's kinda the issue here. Heck they finally delivered UI 2.0 and it's frankly worse than the old UI so go figure.
  
• As a developer myself I completely sympathize with missing deadlines. I know I've defended them on these forums myself when things slipped a couple of weeks, maybe even a month or two. You don't miss a deadline by two years though. That's a "you were never going to make this date" deadline. I'm reminded of a consulting job I was negotiating where the client told me they wanted something equivalent to Amazon in 2 months. Yeah I didn't accept that one.
  
• Also drop the buyer beware cr@p. Don't tell me in one breath that devs have to eat and then say "Well you're fault for spending money!" If we didn't spend the money then the devs wouldn't have been able to keep working on the game and this entire conversation would be moot.
  
• Whoa hold up there partner. I wasn't referring to game balance - I was referring to a game's ability to be exciting. Back in MW3/MW4 their simplistic match making enabled a vibrant competitive scene to spring up. MWO's random match making actively fights against this and with no CW there's really no point to play once you have the mechs you want.
  
• I'm sorry but one game mode that most people don't like doesn't count for much. It's not even an original idea - it's Domination from back in the UT/Quake days just without respawns. I would trade every single new mech for CW in a heartbeat because that would give you a reason to play (competing for territory). 12 vs 12 is pointless as it just makes matches an even larger random fest. Here's a fun experiment. Find a video from MWO's closed beta days to one of the most recent NGNG videos and see how different the game is. Hint - it's not at all.
  
• Whoa whoa whoa! Where did I say anything about 3PV or consumables? I think you're confusing me with someone else because I personally couldn't care less about those. I care about a game that we can play at a competitive level. I care about a game that new players can actually get into and grow with. I care about a game that takes a franchise I adore and champions it for a new generation of players.

Here's a bonus just for fun. Here's a video that I shot October 18th, 2012 just when the NDA was dropped from the closed beta. This was back when SSRMs could miss and knockdowns were still in game.


And here's a video from NGNG from March 7th, 2014.


There's some new shineys and a new game mode... which in the end meant nothing as they had a kill win. It may as well have been classic Assault. The game has barely changed at all.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 11 March 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

TruePoindexter, on 11 March 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Where to begin....

• Yes, I think we all understand that the $500 mechs are not expected to be purchased by everyone. Vanity products like these exist for people with more money than sense. That doesn't mean the rest of us don't find it an insult to ask for that much money on a digital product.
  
• We understand that. Obviously we don't have a problem with that (see the founder tags). We have a problem with being told that they are working on something (Community Warfare and others) only to find out two years later they haven't actually started working on it at all. That's kinda the issue here. Heck they finally delivered UI 2.0 and it's frankly worse than the old UI so go figure.
  
• As a developer myself I completely sympathize with missing deadlines. I know I've defended them on these forums myself when things slipped a couple of weeks, maybe even a month or two. You don't miss a deadline by two years though. That's a "you were never going to make this date" deadline. I'm reminded of a consulting job I was negotiating where the client told me they wanted something equivalent to Amazon in 2 months. Yeah I didn't accept that one.
  
• Also drop the buyer beware cr@p. Don't tell me in one breath that devs have to eat and then say "Well you're fault for spending money!" If we didn't spend the money then the devs wouldn't have been able to keep working on the game and this entire conversation would be moot.
  
• Whoa hold up there partner. I wasn't referring to game balance - I was referring to a game's ability to be exciting. Back in MW3/MW4 their simplistic match making enabled a vibrant competitive scene to spring up. MWO's random match making actively fights against this and with no CW there's really no point to play once you have the mechs you want.
  
• I'm sorry but one game mode that most people don't like doesn't count for much. It's not even an original idea - it's Domination from back in the UT/Quake days just without respawns. I would trade every single new mech for CW in a heartbeat because that would give you a reason to play (competing for territory). 12 vs 12 is pointless as it just makes matches an even larger random fest. Here's a fun experiment. Find a video from MWO's closed beta days to one of the most recent NGNG videos and see how different the game is. Hint - it's not at all.
  
• Whoa whoa whoa! Where did I say anything about 3PV or consumables? I think you're confusing me with someone else because I personally couldn't care less about those. I care about a game that we can play at a competitive level. I care about a game that new players can actually get into and grow with. I care about a game that takes a franchise I adore and champions it for a new generation of players.

Here's a bonus just for fun. Here's a video that I shot October 18th, 2012 just when the NDA was dropped from the closed beta. This was back when SSRMs could miss and knockdowns were still in game.



And here's a video from NGNG from March 7th, 2014.


There's some new shineys and a new game mode... which in the end meant nothing as they had a kill win. It may as well have been classic Assault. The game has barely changed at all.

It is a fact that they haven't done anything in pass year they only made it worse that new UI is soo bad I don't have words to explain it. Just imagine them sitting at table and deciding to implement it I wish I could saw that because I would laugh a lot. How long do we use smurfy 2 years and after all that time this is what devs come up with ? Yet they have guts to sell over priced packs and gold mechs.