14 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Talking about Clans is fine, but what about balancing the weapons we have currently? Why can't we have the SRMs just as viable to use in matches, as the PPCs? Why can't we have Pulse Lasers just as popular as regular version? Why is multiple 10-20 tons worth of weapon system still getting cockblocked by 1.5 tons of equipment? Then there is the LBX...

SRM/Pulse Laser/LRMs vs. ECM -- these issues have been around for better part of the year and we still see no change. Instead of extrapolating about Clan weapons, shouldn't Paul be scratching his brains over current weapon balance? How is he going to even make the Clan weapon system work when the IS weapon system (supposedly much easier to balance) is far from balanced?

Anyone care to comment?

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2013 - 01:34 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

New mechs can be sold, but I've never been able to spend a penny on balance changes. If I read on one of those Clan packages. "50 % of the profits will be spend on hiring a larger design time that will work on analysing, modelling game balance and getting it right"...

Maybe that's what would happen, but maybe it's just that the profits go to a new artist so they can sell the next mech package...

[Zyllos]

We have tried to tell PGI.

But I think part of the problem is that the community is completely fractured on what exactly the issue is.

Some say it's just purely a numbers issues.
Another groups thinks mechanical changes are needed.
Others think it's mechanics not tied to specific weapons (pin point convergence) that is the issue.

I think if the entire community could come up with something we can all agree on and tell PGI, unilaterally, this is the issue, something MIGHT happen.

But at this point, I feel tired even talking about it constantly with no action on the issues. And I have been saying there was a problem back in Closed Beta...

My only hope is that after DX11 and UI2.0 with CW comes out, they finally take a step back and see that there are HUGE issues with their systems.

Edited by Zyllos, 16 December 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Apnu]

El Bandito, on 16 December 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

...but what about balancing the weapons we have currently? Why can't we have the SRMs just as viable to use in matches, as the PPCs? Why can't we have Pulse Lasers just as popular as regular version? Why is multiple 10-20 tons worth of weapon system still getting cockblocked by 1.5 tons of equipment?

SRM/Pulse Laser/LRMs vs. ECM -- these issues have been around for better part of the year and we still see no change. Instead of extrapolating about Clan weapons, shouldn't Paul be scratching his brains over current weapon balance? How is he going to even make the Clan weapon system work when the IS weapon system (supposedly much easier to balance) is far from balanced?

Anyone care to comment?

I can't answer all your questions but pulse lasers vs lasers in this game will never line up. That's because the main advantage with a pulse laser on the table top is the -1 to hit value it gives. Its easier to hit things with a pulse laser than it is a normal laser. The way MWO is, how can that be implemented? With the beam duration its really easy to hit mech with lasers (do damage to one spot with them, not so much). That makes lasers kings of the pulse lasers. Plus they take up less tons and that makes boating them more attractive. But that's also in the TT as well. The HBK-4P was my favorate mech in the game because I got to throw a stupid amount of dice on the table which increased my odds of hitting something.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

As long as people keep buying mechs then they have no incentive to "fix" the game.They will keep on slowly introducing new content as the one person working on it gets it sort of finished.
Meanwhile the majority of the staff will carry on making mechs which = $.

[3rdworld]

Zyllos, on 16 December 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

We have tried to tell PGI.

But I think part of the problem is that the community is completely fractured on what exactly the issue is.

Some say it's just purely a numbers issues.
Another groups thinks mechanical changes are needed.
Others think it's mechanics not tied to specific weapons (pin point convergence) that is the issue.

I think if the entire community could come up with something we can all agree on and tell PGI, unilaterally, this is the issue, something MIGHT happen.

But at this point, I feel tired even talking about it constantly with no action on the issues. And I have been saying there was a problem back in Closed Beta...

My only hope is that after DX11 and UI2.0 with CW comes out, they finally take a step back and see that there are HUGE issues with their systems.

People don't agree on fixes, but there is a pretty decent consensus that many of the weapons are {Scrap}

The fact that nothing is really being done on that front is the more telling issue.

[Zyllos]

3rdworld, on 16 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

People don't agree on fixes, but there is a pretty decent consensus that many of the weapons are {Scrap}

The fact that nothing is really being done on that front is the more telling issue.

True, it can be clearly seen that issues exist, even without a consensus.

[Trauglodyte]

I don't know. I'd say that there are mainly two areas that need to get handled and everyone agrees on those:

• Coding issues: This include missiles in all of their awfulness sans Streaks, HSR interaction with projectiles (ACs not hitting mechs at point blank range) and missiles, and the current jamming issues with the UACs (ie, how a single UAC is awful and jams when you don't double fire but how multiple UACs circumvent the issue).
  
• Usefulness issues: This includes LBs, pulse lasers, etc. In other words, these weapons are fine in that they work but aren't fine because they're too limited in how they work.

[kapusta11]

El Bandito, on 16 December 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Anyone care to comment?

What's the point?

[Jman5]

On the one hand, I think it's important to have some inkling of where you want to take clan weapon balance before you start making a ton of changes to IS weapon balance.

On the other hand, I'm not prepared to sit around for 6 months with poor weapon balance until clan tech fixes all the holes.

There are serious problems on a macro level with the game's balance. Short range builds are at best comparable at short range to many long range ballistic builds. However, once you leave that 270-ish meter range the short range builds become next to useless.

Just as I'm useless past 270 meters, you should be pretty vulnerable at short range. Now to their credit there are weapon system that follow this logic. LRMs, PPCs, and the gauss are pretty vulnerable in a brawl. Unfortunately you've got a whole host of autocannons with extreme range and absolutely no issues close up. Have you seen what a quad AC/5 mech does to you when it unloads? You just melt in seconds. Are ballistics supposed to be the good at everything bad at nothing weapon? Is it fair to zero out energy weapons at 2x range, zero out missiles at 1x range, but extend ballistics all the way out to 3x range? When my four 270m range medium lasers hit 540, they zero out. When my ac/20 hits 540m they are still cooking mechs for 10 damage a shot. Are SRMs supposed to be ok at face-hugging range against slow targets, but useless anytime else?

You're creating an inherent imbalance between variants that have jump jets + ballistics and mechs that don't. The only wiggle room I see are goofball 1-dimensional builds like the ECM raven with 2 ER large lasers. They work great when you have zero weight limits and the other team is in all slow mechs. (which only happens because matchmaking doesn't match weight very well).

Edited by Jman5, 16 December 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I also think that one of the things that really plagues them, in terms of balance, is their inherent refusal to move a weapon recycle time to 5s or beyond. ACs, just to reinforce your thoughts Jman, are all on 4dps recycles. That means that if you get someone with multiple ACs, even if they're just AC2s, in your face, you're going to lose in a hurry. At most, ACs should be at 3-3.5 dps and that includes the Gauss. And there are no counters to weapons in that heat isn't a deterrent by any means.

I guess that I'm stuck in this cycle of not being able to avoid the damage once it is incoming and no way of upping my damage outside of adding more weapons. One weapon, by itself, is never a problem but it becomes exponentially, and not additionally, more potent the more of them you have. Heat and armor, on the other hand, is so linear that is lags behind incoming damage.

[Captain Stiffy]

They are probably already balancing against {Scrap} that won't be available until the end of June which is probably why everything seems so messed up.

[El Bandito]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 December 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

They are probably already balancing against {Scrap} that won't be available until the end of June which is probably why everything seems so messed up.

Perhaps, but that's non-sense. How is a weapon such as the LBX, considered non-viable by IS standards, is going to match against Clan weapons in current form anyway? There is absolutely no reason why some balancing should be done right now. Does PGI not know that more weapon selection will keep the game more interesting and will have better player retention?

[Captain Stiffy]

El Bandito, on 18 December 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Perhaps, but that's non-sense. How is a weapon such as the LBX, considered non-viable by IS standards, is going to match against Clan weapons in current form anyway? There is absolutely no reason why some balancing should be done right now. Does PGI not know that more weapon selection will keep the game more interesting and will have better player retention?

The LB10x is the most powerful weapon in the game by far right now.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Here's what I'd like to see:

SRMs

• Group them to reduce the number of missiles needed to be tracked by the server. Groups of two should work since that is 4 damage each group. So 3x SRM 6 would fire 9 clusters instead of 18 individual missiles for example.
  
• Boost their Speed, maybe with HSR, the server is thinking that missiles 'miss' due to their current speed even if the client shows a hit. Go from 300 to 425 or even 450 m/s at a starting point to see if that helps.
  
• If those don't help, then what about allowing Artemis to provide SRMs with lock-on capability? SSRMs seem to be better in registering hits in comparison, so why not give that 1 ton investment be a greater incentive for players? And with the current 'bones' system the damage will be spread, but registering with greater frequency. And the can still be fired without lock-on.
  
• Lastly, consider increasing ammo per ton since SRMs have not gotten a boost as other weapons have, and an extra 20 missiles for a new total of 120 might be enough, (would help out lights and mediums some).

Pulse Lasers

• Reduce beam duration and provide a short burst before the regular cooldown. So with the LPL for example instead of a single beam doing 10.6 damage over 0.60 seconds, what about starting with two beams that deal 5 damage each over 0.25 seconds with a 0.10 delay between them before cycling to normal cooldown.
  
• Reduce heat to match HPS value of their equivalents. So for LPLs maybe have them match ERLLs or match their HPS directly to LLs, since they are heavier and shorter range. The same for MPL, lower the heat to match the HPS of MLs.

LRMs

• Group them like SRMs to reduce the number of missiles needed to be tracked by the server. Groups of five like in BT can work so 2x LRM 20 would fire 8 clusters instead of 40 individual missiles.
  
• Apply the SSRM 'bone' system so that their CT seeking nature is replaced, and to assist in getting more missiles to hit.
  
• If that is not enough then consider boosting their speed. 250 m/s could a decent starting point to see how they respond, and adjust as necessary.

ECM

• Allow for mechs protected by ECM to be bracketed by the hollow triangle and/or red square, if the Crosshair is held on them long enough, but prevent proper Targeting, any updating of their paper doll and lock-on without TAG as currently set, if outside of 200m (I think that is the current range) also that information cannot be shared with allies. If line of sight is lost or the crosshair moves off of the ECM protected mech, then the hollow triangle and/or red square bracketing needs to be reacquired. Hope that makes sense in what I'm trying to describe.

Ballistic Weapon variety

• I'd like to have different types of ballistic weapons available. Burst-fire, fully automatic and even tweak some of our existing ACs to semi automatic for example.
  
• So using the AC/20 as an example, we could see different variants.
  
• As a burst fire AC it would rapidly fire four to ten projectiles where each would do either 5 or 2 damage, with a short delay between each before getting a regular longer cooldown.
  
• Fully auto, each projectile could deal 2 damage, for example, and be like a short range AC/2 on steroids.
  
• As semi-auto, it would keep it's current single projectile of 20 damage, but the cooldown will be made longer to lower DPS, and would require a trigger pull for each shot.
  
• Ammo, heat, rate of fire are adjusted accordingly to maintain their current damage per ton, DPS and HPS also. I've got more examples here.

So that's what I'd like to test out at least.