79 replies to this topic

[Daggett]

Ransack, on 09 January 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Late to this party, but since it jumped to the first page, I've got to ask how it is that you can honestly compare full games a lot with DLC added in to the price of a piece of digital addon in an incomplete game?

Well, i have not started with the bad comparisons, i just corrected the original one a bit.

But to explain my thoughts a bit:
What both (Limited Editions and digital bling-bling-items) have in common is that everything you get beside the game is exclusive stuff which don't add to the actual gameplay.

Granted, the limited editions have physical objects which are better than virtual items.
But on one hand, producing this stuff is relatively cheap and by far not worth hundreds of dollars.
On the other hand all this stuff (regardless of physical or not) is nothing needed for the game itself, it's just a bonus for the collectors out there. Whoever just wants to play the game will never buy an expensive limited edition or a gold mech.

So if you deduct the game price and production cost of the physical stuff from the price of collector editions, you are often still paying 100+ dollars just on collectors stuff whose function is almost the same as MWO's gold mechs.
And in my eyes this is kinda comparable.

BTW, while we are at bad comparisons: MMO's are NEVER finished, they are always incomplete and evolving. So it's a bit unfair to compare a game which is always incomplete by definition to a 'full game'.

And incomplete or not: Which game have most of you put more time into last year? A solid AAA title like Assassins Creed 3 or MWO? For me it's MWO by a far amount. I played this game way more than all other games together (except maybe M:TG).

And i did this knowing that i really miss some things like CW. It still makes fun and that's all what matters, as incomplete as the thing is.

And i payed the same 50 bucks an average 'full' game would cost me. So personally i don't feel milked or betrayed by PGI. I just wish that PGI gets a bit more professional so i don't have to wait so long for the really good stuff.

Edit: And only very few (if any) games add interesting content DLCs to their collector editions. Most of this content is average at best and no reason to buy a limited edition. The really big DLCs like XCOM's Enemy Within or the Civ5 Expansions are almost always produced after the release of the limited edition and are sold seperately for quite some money.
Day-0 DLCs are most often useless {Scrap} to squeeze more money out of the game.

Edited by Daggett, 09 January 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[WM Jeri]

Dracol, on 09 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I appreciate the thought out response. One question, what is the average yearly spending of a client? $100 to $200 or a couple thousand?

The reason I ask is because it seems to me, when it comes to video games, there is a limit to the amount of money an average gamer will spend. I totally agree with you that if a customer leaves and the company loses a couple thousand dollar then retaining that customer should be a top priority.

But, if PGI generates more income per new player verses retaining an existing player, it would make logical sense for PGI/IGP to continue to develop their game in a way to generate new players, verses retaining players who would spend less from this point forward.

The negative aspect of this approach would be existing players feeling slighted, which turns into bad PR, which negatively affects new player signups and retention.

I would agree with what your to a degree saying that new player churn is critical to the game but...only if they spend something. In terms of the financial viability I would agree with the original post in that its a core player base in the case of the OP the 20% that represents the major source of revenue for PGI in terms of revenue per player. Where we disagree is that the 20% is all willing to continue spending.

It all breaks down to the amount per player spent. How many players does it take who spend something small to replace the revenue lost from what you could consider Whales. I don't know what that number is, but they need BOTH player types spending money to stablize the revenue stream. Least thats my oinion.

And we totally are in agreement on the word of mouth aspect of slighted players especially if you apply the Iceberg analysis to an unhappy customer. For each unhappy customer you know about there are 9 more you don't and in gaming social media discontent can easily and quickly reach a critical mass that can affect perception.

Edited by WM Jeri, 09 January 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Daggett]

Dracol, on 09 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

But, if PGI generates more income per new player verses retaining an existing player, it would make logical sense for PGI/IGP to continue to develop their game in a way to generate new players, verses retaining players who would spend less from this point forward.

The negative aspect of this approach would be existing players feeling slighted, which turns into bad PR, which negatively affects new player signups and retention.

I guess PGI will have a hard time should they follow such an approach not just because of the negative aspect you mentioned.

Let's face it: Battletech and therefore MWO is a niche thingy. The main audience is 30+ and will get older.
Sure there is some fresh blood out there, but the BT-Veterans are crucial for the success of this game.

If this would be a game like Candy Crush Saga there is not much need for player retention. If they don't pay within the first hours they probably never do and it's better to focus on getting new players. MWO however needs every player and whale it can get and can't afford to scare anyone away.

And that's what make me sad when i see PGI doing so many things to upset the veterans. But as i wrote earlier i don't think they do this because they want to grab as much money they can. No one would create a complex niche game just to make cash, there is always some passion involved.

Any sane and greedy dev would rather create an easily produce-able mass-audience casual game like Candy Crush Saga.

So i think PGI is simply too inexperienced and overwhelmed with the big task of creating a complex MMO and i really hope they get the curve and establish a more professional workflow and community management.

Edited by Daggett, 09 January 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Daggett, on 09 January 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

No one would create a complex niche game just to make cash, there is always some love for the thing involved.

Any sane and greedy dev would rather create an easily produce-able mass-audience casual game like Candy Crush Saga.

So i think PGI is simply too inexperienced and overwhelmed with the big task of creating a complex MMO and i really hope they get the curve and establish a more professional workflow and community management.

This is indeed a simpler explanation for everything than PGI being con men. If the Clan mechs were a cash grab, they could be doing a waaaaay better job of it.

Similarly, the grab-bag MVP niche games made under the name Jarhead Games ("Marine Sharpshooter, etc.") aren't the kind of thing you do to make lots of money. They're the kind of thing you do to build your resume and get experience.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 09 January 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Ransack]

Still not even close

Think on this.
Top tier Founders package. $120
Top Tier Phoenix package $80
Sabre $40
now clan $500
All for the SAME GAME.

fallout review says NOT WORTH THE EXTRA MONEY!!
Dead space included

Quote

• The Dead Space game
  
• Special Ultra Limited Edition packaging
  
• Dead Space Downfall Animated Movie (DVD)
  
• Bonus content DVD
  
• Exclusive custom lithograph art illustrated and signed by Ben Templesmith
  
• 97-pg Dead Space art book written and illustrated by the development team
  
• 160-pg Graphic novel
  
• Ishimura crew patch

The Last of us Post-Pandemic Edition
There is more in the first 10 minutes of that game than there is in this game by a lot.
comes with

• 12 inch premium statue by Project Triforce
  
• Steelbook edition of the game
  
• The Last of Us - American Dreams #1 Comic (Variant Cover)
  
• Survival DLC Pack & Sights and Sounds DLC pack
  
• Naughty Dog Sticker sheet

Assassins Creed Master Assassin Edition

Assassin's Creed 2 Master Assassin Edition comes with the following: - 8.5 inch Collectible Ezio Statue - Artbook: The Art of Assassins Creed - Premium Collectible Metal Case - Two Exclusive, in-game maps: Palazzo Medici and Santa Maria Dei Frari - Additional content DVD: Behind the scenes of Assassin's Creed and Assassin's Creed II Soundtrack

Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 Prestige Edition

• Modern Warfare 2 for PlayStation 3
  
• Steel book with metallic finish
  
• Artbook
  
• Game manual
  
• Token to download the original Call of Duty
  
• Night Vision Goggles that is capable of seeing up to 50 feet
  
• Collector's stand to hold your goggles that is individually numbered

Those are for the Game PLUS more. This is the more that still costs more than most of your examples. It's apples to bowling balls.

[Whatzituyah]

I think you forgot even more games like that

[xX_Nero_Xx]

i have no problem buying the to clan package right now, if we had private matches, dont give a {Scrap} about clan wars tbh,that so far off might never show up but if i could bid a match and actually play agaist other teams were i can post results on rd party leagues.
so why waste my money,hell i rember when they took out collisions in cbt said it be fixed soon hahahahahahahahaha .
miss running over thoose dam light mechs and alpha them that was enjoyable gone.

[Asmudius Heng]

Niko Snow, on 16 December 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Though keep in mind that, just like with our previous PreOrders, these Mechs are still offered at a significantly reduced price compared to normal MC unlock prices and come with a number of other value-added bonuses.

Sales and Pre-orders should not be regarded as the normative price and the value on such offers may vary with each different iteration.

I dont care about the prices - I care about how clans will fit into CW.

Encouraging people to pay for clan mechs without knowing what they will be like and how they will fit into community warfare is unethical as they do not know what they are getting.

With the phoenix pack you kind of knew what you were getting just without the detail. Clans and clan tech and their relationship with the IS are so different that it bears careful explanation to people lest you receive a ton of bad feedback if implemented poorly.

You are profiting form the nostalgia of battletech/mechwarrior fans on this one mostly and you may not be able to cater to all the subgroups in that market segment and will lead to disappointment by many.

[BlackWindKaze]

been looking at this and you can buy just one mech and its variants but seriously $55.00 that's bs. that quite overpriced how about making it $20 I guarantee you sales will be higher hell of a lot easier to come up with $20.00. bit depressed though as even if it was 20.00 the mech I want isn't available anyways all I want is the mad dog. I suppose timber wolf would be ok till mad dog but no way in hell am I paying 55.00. hell there shouldn't even be other variants of clan mechs they are Omni mechs.

[NextGame]

Personally, the cost isn't really a problem, I think that's something that's going to be different for everyone depending on their financial circumstances and disposable income. That said, if you objectively compare it with the cost of other things in computer gaming, $55 for a mech chassis is wildly expensive and it would be reasonable to suggest that PGI don't really live in the real world regarding their pricing policy as well as a few other things.

That said, if they want me to buy these mechs, they better produce something beyond team deathmatch on a handful of maps for me to use them in, otherwise I am no longer interested in spending money on their game.

If PGI are comfortable with dismissing people similar to myself as not being worthwhile customers (1 founders pack, 2 phoenix packs (1 for the wife), multiple hundreds of $ on mc, and responsible for bringing others to the game who have bought at least 1 founders pack and 2 phoenix packs between them), then this game has no future and it would be best to kill it now and move on to something else rather than wait till 2020 for the license to run out. Chalk it up with not being able to handle this type of business model, or inexperience or whatever, but don't waste everyone's time with lies and empty promises about features such as community warfare.

The handful of white knights won't save it or help it grow to its full potential. Paying customers will, but after 2 years, which is pretty much where we now are, there has to be product to justify the cost.

Edited by NextGame, 14 January 2014 - 02:57 AM.

[Fais]

I dont care how many fan boys this game still has. Having spent between $400-$500 on this game on a lot of empty promises. Releasing another package (clan) while the Phoenix pack has not been fufilled (ie Loyalty points/first stage of CW). Crossed the line for me.

Edited by Fais, 14 January 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Imperius]

$120 founders, $110 overlord with saber, $100 in MC and champion mechs. $500 gold Timberwolf. Why? Cause good things cone with patience.

I can't wait to reap the salty tears from the scam artist behind star citizen. By the time that game comes out (if it comes out) who's going to care? Ships that blow up forever? Insurance? Let alone all the game is right now is check the ship hanger out simulator 2014

[RG Notch]

Imperius, on 14 January 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

$120 founders, $110 overlord with saber, $100 in MC and champion mechs. $500 gold Timberwolf. Why? Cause good things cone with patience.

I can't wait to reap the salty tears from the scam artist behind star citizen. By the time that game comes out (if it comes out) who's going to care? Ships that blow up forever? Insurance? Let alone all the game is right now is check the ship hanger out simulator 2014

I can't wait to reap the salty tears of the rubes who gave another $500 to the scam artists behind MWO. By the time CW comes out (if it comes out) who's going to care? faction grindfest? nerfed Clan tech? Let alone all the game is right now is the same pointless arena shooter it's been since CB.

[Fais]

Imperius, on 14 January 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

$120 founders, $110 overlord with saber, $100 in MC and champion mechs. $500 gold Timberwolf. Why? Cause good things cone with patience.

I can't wait to reap the salty tears from the scam artist behind star citizen. By the time that game comes out (if it comes out) who's going to care? Ships that blow up forever? Insurance? Let alone all the game is right now is check the ship hanger out simulator 2014

What does Star Citizen have to do with MWO? I have been paying/playing customer of MWO since June of 2012, and it still can't deliver its original promises.

Edited by Fais, 14 January 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[Blurry]

Dracol, on 16 December 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

The 80/20 ratio is found throughout business theory.

80% of a business's revenue comes from 20% of their clientel.
80% of retail sales happen the 20% of the year right before Xmas.

So, when it comes to the Clan pre-sale....

The majority of the money gained in presales will only be from 1/5th of the player base
The majority of discretionary spending happens before Christmas, and there would be no other time for PGI to sell the clan pre-package except now.

Those of you waiting for features, protesting balance, or just playing the game for free are not the targets of the clan prepackage sale.

No, the Clan pre-package was released for those who are patient, enjoy playing the game, and have a desire to spend money on it. These people, the 20%, will receive the majority (80%) of PGI's attention.... since they will be providing 80% of the sales.

Edited: Corrected a misspelling

They already have your money - they proved your a sucker they are looking for the next one. That is all you need to know.
Otherwise the game would have delivered what was promised in the relevant time line.

I am a sucker too and feel horrible for it. But they are always chasing NEW MONEY and not old money. The old money is a bridge burned and players not coming back. SO they can and will continue to raise prices until no money comes in.

Then they will pull a jimmy swaggart and I have sinned but seen the light speech and try and milk those burnt bridges for more money. When that fails they close shop and move on to the next IP to pump and dump.

They way of the world in 30 sec or less.

[Blurry]

Imperius, on 14 January 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

$120 founders, $110 overlord with saber, $100 in MC and champion mechs. $500 gold Timberwolf. Why? Cause good things cone with patience.

I can't wait to reap the salty tears from the scam artist behind star citizen. By the time that game comes out (if it comes out) who's going to care? Ships that blow up forever? Insurance? Let alone all the game is right now is check the ship hanger out simulator 2014

but they have done more, produced more, and far exceeded all expectations of the community and themselves. They have been rewarded over and over again by the community and frankly have the trust of the vast majority of the players.
SC started far later too you do know that right? what does MWO have as an excuse? They had the funding and the players.

What do we have here? Lowered expectations, constant mechs sales, unable to meet any deadline and 0 communication.
Dont even talk about trust.

Edited by Blurry, 14 January 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Blurry]

Dracol, on 09 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I appreciate the thought out response. One question, what is the average yearly spending of a client? $100 to $200 or a couple thousand?

The reason I ask is because it seems to me, when it comes to video games, there is a limit to the amount of money an average gamer will spend. I totally agree with you that if a customer leaves and the company loses a couple thousand dollar then retaining that customer should be a top priority.

But, if PGI generates more income per new player verses retaining an existing player, it would make logical sense for PGI/IGP to continue to develop their game in a way to generate new players, verses retaining players who would spend less from this point forward.

The negative aspect of this approach would be existing players feeling slighted, which turns into bad PR, which negatively affects new player signups and retention.

The issue with that is simple.
It is significantly harder to continue to find, cultivate and convince new players to spend money especially at rapidly increasing prices. You already have a whale who is willing to spend money. That is who you cater to. But it isnt the case here why is that?

[General Taskeen]

Its more of the F2P curse.

Publishers and Developers are trying out this F2P Method of paying for a unfinished version with active stores.

And its spreading, and as old gamer, its frustrating to see it happening. Its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation, especially since this is the only 'active' developed FPS Mech Warrior game, with no actively allowed competition, which is sad. So its more like a monopoly on an aging franchise.

There are other models for Kickstarters that are just about paying for an unfinished game, but you don't continually buy something while the game is in some sort of alpha/beta state. You are just paying for the alpha/beta to assist with the development, with no active 'buy things' store, and when the game is complete it, you already paid for it, so no further spending is required.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 January 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Fais]

General Taskeen, on 14 January 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Its more of the F2P curse.

Publishers and Developers are trying out this F2P Method of paying for a unfinished version with active stores.

And its spreading, and as old gamer, its frustrating to see it happening. Its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation, especially since this is the only 'active' developed FPS Mech Warrior game, with no actively allowed competition, which is sad. So its more like a monopoly on an aging franchise.

There are other models for Kickstarters that are just about paying for an unfinished game, but you don't continually buy something while the game is in some sort of alpha/beta state. You are just paying for the alpha/beta to assist with the development, with no active 'buy things' store, and when the game is complete it, you already paid for it, so no further spending is required.

I totally agree with your dammed if you do, dammed if you don't analogy. But for me they sold the Phoenix pack dangling "loyalty points" out there like some carrot of things to come. Then they have the launch party/tourney and tell us all these great ideas. They tell us the first stage of CW is right around the corner. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me. I can't trust to pay someone for another package when I dont think they have delivered the one I just bought.

[Windies]

Niko Snow, on 16 December 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Though keep in mind that, just like with our previous PreOrders, these Mechs are still offered at a significantly reduced price compared to normal MC unlock prices and come with a number of other value-added bonuses.

Sales and Pre-orders should not be regarded as the normative price and the value on such offers may vary with each different iteration.

So in other words, the drastically inflated prices will be even more inflated once they are no longer a pre-order? Anything else need to be said?

Edited by Windies, 14 January 2014 - 11:37 AM.