36 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Currently... without a shadow of a doubt the strongest builds in todays mwo are all focused on high alpha and jump sniping. Usually combined between the two of them. Where as I understand the idea of high alpha being part of mech warrior simply due to the nature of it and the fact that your a walking mobile tank, the concept of jump sniping is rather crossed with the idealology of most mechwarrior concepts and ideals. If I were to go purely off canon I dont believe there are many mechwarriors reknown for there ability to jump multiple times next to a hill while firing a ppc....

That said obviously you cant just take out a huge part of the game which a portion of people who play within it know and adore.... but neither should it be easy to just slap a few ppc and autocannon onto a mech and go jumping around like a kangaroo. For that reason I propose a change which would greatly alter the current meta and also give more value to jump jets as a whole.

Currently cockpit shake only occurs on the way up while using jump jets. Given however the sheer violent nature of propelling that many tons into the air and the awkwardness of a mech itself I would suggest it shake on the way down as well.... accept when one uses the appropriate amount of jump jets to properly stabilize said mech... Most jump sniper builds are only utilizing one jump jet right now.... maybe two at the most. Utilizing a simple system you can force pilots who truly want to jump snipe to invest more tonnage into jump jets to do such.

I propose the following system...

6 Jump Jets - No screen shake on the way down.
5 Jump Jets - 5-10% shake on the way down.
4 Jump Jets - 10-15% shake on the way down.
3 Jump Jets - 15-20% shake on the way down.
2 Jump Jets - 20-25% shake on the way down.
1 Jump Jet - 25-30% shake on the way down.

Utilizing this it would allow mechwarriors to pick and choose abit. They may want to only invest up to a certain level and hell 10% cockpit shake might not be too bad... perhaps they want to risk it... but they it will effect there long distance shooting more as well. This will overall create a new meta in addition since mechs with higher jump jet amounts will be more prized in certain situations.

While many may look at this off the bat and say "HEY YOUR GONNA NERF ME!" I will say that after crunching the numbers there are...

2 Mechs which can mount 6 Jump jets and negate all cockpit shake on the way down.
7 mechs which can mount 5 and negate most of the shake...
and 16 that can mount 4 and still be mostly viable and still at least shoot over hill tops but not fire distance.

This also could perhaps give more of a reason to use the new module, perhaps change it and alter it so it prevents a portion of jump jet shake.

In addition to all of this it would also have an added side benefit of giving mechs not often used alot more play overall.

I greatly encourage any feedback on this.


Lastly I will note since there is a few posts just smashing on jump sniping that I think jump sniping, just like any other role is an integral part of the game, I simply feel it needs to be cut down on the sheer number out there. This is simply a fix for that.

Edited by Varent, 16 December 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Reitrix]

A better change, i think, is to change ACs and PPCs to be stream weapons rather than direct single shots. You can still Jumpsnipe as much as you like ... But you're going to spray your shots all over the target.

For PPCs though, that might make them a bit too similar to Lasers .. though someone here did once suggest for teh shot to arc around the target area rather than behave as an energy bullet.

[Foxfire]

Better solution is an exponential return for the number of JJ's you have equipped. 1 JJ, barely get off the ground.. max? Full performance.

No need to add arbitrary systems and mechanics... fix JJ's to where they need to be.

[nemesis271989]

I propose opposite system
6 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
5 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
4 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
3 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
2 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
1 Jump Jet - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon

In real world shooting in air will produce a force that flips your mech upside down and land like a Christmas tree (upside down)

Pop tarding problem solved

NEXT!!!

Edited by nemesis271989, 16 December 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Reitrix]

nemesis271989, on 16 December 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I propose opposite system
6 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
5 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
4 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
3 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
2 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
1 Jump Jet - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon

In real world shooting in air will produce a force that flips your mech upside down and land like a Christmas tree (upside down)

Pop tarding problem solved

NEXT!!!

Except that would ruin the use of Jump jets on pretty much every 'Mech ever that WASN'T using them to poptart.

Like running past that K2 on my 3D and jump twisting to fire downwards at him because he cant shoot up very far.
Your 'solution' would relegate JJs to going over small obstacles and thats it.

[Artgathan]

nemesis271989, on 16 December 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

In real world shooting in air will produce a force that flips your mech upside down and land like a Christmas tree (upside down)

This would only affect weapon systems that generate recoil. I am not 100% sure if PPCs do (lasers don't).

Edited by Artgathan, 16 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 16 December 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Better solution is an exponential return for the number of JJ's you have equipped. 1 JJ, barely get off the ground.. max? Full performance.

No need to add arbitrary systems and mechanics... fix JJ's to where they need to be.

While valid I think that would probly deserve its own thread regarding jump jets in general. Keep in mind as well some mechs only have 2 jump jet slots in general, you dont want to arbitrarily nerf them and not allow them to even use there capabilities.

Reitrix, on 16 December 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

A better change, i think, is to change ACs and PPCs to be stream weapons rather than direct single shots. You can still Jumpsnipe as much as you like ... But you're going to spray your shots all over the target.

For PPCs though, that might make them a bit too similar to Lasers .. though someone here did once suggest for teh shot to arc around the target area rather than behave as an energy bullet.

This would just be an arbitrary nerf to those weapons. Which would be pointless in and of itself.

Artgathan, on 16 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

This would only affect weapon systems that generate recoil. I am not 100% sure if PPCs do (lasers don't).

Also a 80-90 ton mech firing a weapon system wont feel much recoil, just sheer mass keeping it in place.

[OneEyed Jack]

nemesis271989, on 16 December 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I propose opposite system
6 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
5 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
4 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
3 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
2 Jump Jets - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon
1 Jump Jet - 20-25% screen shake on the way up and down ​can't fire any weapon

In real world shooting in air will produce a force that flips your mech upside down and land like a Christmas tree (upside down)

Pop tarding problem solved

NEXT!!!

But what do we do about the tards that think we need screen shake when weapons can't be fired? Ancient societies would take them out into the wilderness and leave them, but they won't let us do that, anymore.

BTW... how the hell would lasers flip a multi-ton mech?

[Black Templar]

i don't necessarily agree with your suggested solution, but you are right on one thing: jump jets need a change in the way they work. "kangaroo" pretty much nails it
giving jets the shake on the way down wouldn't make much sense to my mind. the real problem with jump snipers is that:

1.) the jets have a very low cooldown/ recharge very quickly,
2.) they only require minimum tonnage + thrust to bring your weapons on target and
3.) generate little to no heat.

the JJ spam needs to stop. i suggest decreasing the recharge rate on the JJs. as well as increasing the maximum height of the jumps tremendously. this will expose snipers for a longer period of time while they try to shoot you. after the jump, the longer recharge cycle will prevent a group of snipers from denying whole areas of the map by constantly jumping.

this is essentially the way MWLL handled JJ...sniping was possible and viable, but it came with a risk. in addition the charge on the gauss rifle could possibly be removed to ease out the nerf.
Ghost Heat needs to go. Even for PPCs. instead i would suggest a system where jumping and shooting PPCs/Gauss decreases the maximum speed and acceleration of the mech for the duration of the weapon reclye time...maybe.

i would at least like to see some of these suggestions tested on the PBE before we throw them on the public servers. sniping is fun and rewarding, but currently way too strong. nearly every competitive team out there runs nothing but mechs with PPCs, ACs and JJs. this alone should worry PGI enough to see that it impacts PUG play too.
finally these changes mean nothing, if the brawling weapons like Pulse Lasers and SRMs don't get a buff/fix soon. effective counterplay to jumpsniping is currently absent from the game. artillery and airstrikes help, but this seems like a bandage on a broken system.

Edited by Black Templar, 16 December 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[nemesis271989]

Artgathan, on 16 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

This would only affect weapon systems that generate recoil. I am not 100% sure if PPCs do (lasers don't).

Your recoil can be
Electromagnetic shock (ppc/gauss/lasers)
Heat (difference in heat produces opposite forces for example outside temperature and your laser barrel)

Remember reactive motion/rocket motion, drop hose on the ground and give it max water pressure and see what happens.
Those forces are everywhere even when your mad girlfriend smacks your face (*****ch slap) there a lot is going on between your face and your GF's hand, not only pain and anger.

[xCico]

What with lets say blackjack who use ac20 and 3 ml? You would kill all mechs that are capable for JJs, why just no put charge up on PPC? Bring back the gauss before charge up, we have new mwo, hell yeah!

[Varent]

Black Templar, on 16 December 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

the JJ spam needs to stop. i suggest decreasing the recharge rate on the JJs. as well as increasing the maximum height of the jumps tremendously. this will expose snipers for a longer period of time while they try to shoot you. after the jump, the longer recharge cycle will prevent a group of snipers from denying whole areas of the map by constantly jumping.

The only major issue I see with this is it still can be worked around in just about every way. All you would need to do is find a hill side larger which would actually make a higher jump about a bonus. The added recharge rate could be nice.. but at the same time Jump jets in and of themselves arent super strong and that would just be nerfing jump jet capable mechs in general for really no good reason. It would hurt brawlers trying to cross ridges and hurt missle boats trying to make escapes. The method I have proposed specifically focuses on making it more difficult to fire a weapon while in air unless you pay for it with weight and slots.

[OneEyed Jack]

Varent, on 16 December 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Also a 80-90 ton mech firing a weapon system wont feel much recoil, just sheer mass keeping it in place.

Oh, there would be recoil. At least from some weapons. But how it affected the mech would vary greatly, especially depending on weapon placement. A gun fired from waist-level might spin the mech and/or push it back. Might even tilt it. But it would be unlikely to "flip it on it's head." Especially when there's a rapidly-spinning gyro helping to counter the force.

But, of course, that's all assuming that real-world physics mean anything in a game of stompy giant robots with particle-projection cannons and weaponized lasers that can burn through armor built to stop conventional tank shells.

[Varent]

On a sidenote I will say that making these changes to jump jets would also allow them to un-nerf gause rifle as well since it would be a cost benefit weight wise. Wich would help direct fire supports not focused on jumping and change the meta more.

[OneEyed Jack]

nemesis271989, on 16 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Your recoil can be
Electromagnetic shock (ppc/gauss/lasers)
Heat (difference in heat produces opposite forces for example outside temperature and your laser barrel)

So... Ghost Recoil from Dimension X?

PPCs.... maybe. They've never been described quite in a way to really be able to apply solid math to them, especially when they're only accelerating the particles to 1200mps.......

Lasers, not a chance. For recoil to apply, it has to be able to exert force significant to 20+ tons (usually much more) with gyro-stabilization. Heat from the barrel? Not even close.

[Black Templar]

check this video out. ignore the "improved JJ" part for now.



this is what i imagined.
increased jump-height.
fast launch, long exposure.
jumping generates heat.
no refill while midair.
landing stops any momentum.
after the landing there is a two-three second cooldown phase before the fuel recharges (slowly).

[3endless8oogie]

Black Templar, on 16 December 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

check this video out. ignore the "improved JJ" part for now.



this is what i imagined.
increased jump-height.
fast launch, long exposure.
jumping generates heat.
no refill while midair.
landing stops any momentum.
after the landing there is a two-three second cooldown phase before the fuel recharges (slowly).

Excellent you just killed the jenner

[Xmith]

Varent, on 16 December 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Currently... without a shadow of a doubt the strongest builds in todays mwo are all focused on high alpha and jump sniping. Usually combined between the two of them. Where as I understand the idea of high alpha being part of mech warrior simply due to the nature of it and the fact that your a walking mobile tank, the concept of jump sniping is rather crossed with the idealology of most mechwarrior concepts and ideals. If I were to go purely off canon I dont believe there are many mechwarriors reknown for there ability to jump multiple times next to a hill while firing a ppc....

That said obviously you cant just take out a huge part of the game which a portion of people who play within it know and adore.... but neither should it be easy to just slap a few ppc and autocannon onto a mech and go jumping around like a kangaroo. For that reason I propose a change which would greatly alter the current meta and also give more value to jump jets as a whole.

Currently cockpit shake only occurs on the way up while using jump jets. Given however the sheer violent nature of propelling that many tons into the air and the awkwardness of a mech itself I would suggest it shake on the way down as well.... accept when one uses the appropriate amount of jump jets to properly stabilize said mech... Most jump sniper builds are only utilizing one jump jet right now.... maybe two at the most. Utilizing a simple system you can force pilots who truly want to jump snipe to invest more tonnage into jump jets to do such.

I propose the following system...

6 Jump Jets - No screen shake on the way down.
5 Jump Jets - 5-10% shake on the way down.
4 Jump Jets - 10-15% shake on the way down.
3 Jump Jets - 15-20% shake on the way down.
2 Jump Jets - 20-25% shake on the way down.
1 Jump Jet - 25-30% shake on the way down.

Utilizing this it would allow mechwarriors to pick and choose abit. They may want to only invest up to a certain level and hell 10% cockpit shake might not be too bad... perhaps they want to risk it... but they it will effect there long distance shooting more as well. This will overall create a new meta in addition since mechs with higher jump jet amounts will be more prized in certain situations.

While many may look at this off the bat and say "HEY YOUR GONNA NERF ME!" I will say that after crunching the numbers there are...

2 Mechs which can mount 6 Jump jets and negate all cockpit shake on the way down.
7 mechs which can mount 5 and negate most of the shake...
and 16 that can mount 4 and still be mostly viable and still at least shoot over hill tops but not fire distance.

This also could perhaps give more of a reason to use the new module, perhaps change it and alter it so it prevents a portion of jump jet shake.

In addition to all of this it would also have an added side benefit of giving mechs not often used alot more play overall.

I greatly encourage any feedback on this.


Lastly I will note since there is a few posts just smashing on jump sniping that I think jump sniping, just like any other role is an integral part of the game, I simply feel it needs to be cut down on the sheer number out there. This is simply a fix for that.

I got a better idea. Communicate to your team about the snipers and keep under cover.

[Black Templar]

nope i didn't. if you have watched the whole video you will notice that small jumps are still possible and also let your fuel recharge quicker. however small jumps won't take you high enough to snipe effectively. light mechs work great in MWLL (especially in packs). just play the game for yourself and check it out, if you don't believe me. be warned though. MWLL plays a lot more like a simulation than an arcade shooter ;P

Edited by Black Templar, 16 December 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[D04S02B04]

Do people who advocate the nerfing of JJs know how to poptart properly and effectively?

When you do, you'll realise your greatest enemy is brawlers. The reason why brawlers don't work is because of high heat on Medium Lasers and poor SRM hit detection and damage etc.

Therefore instead of nerfing JJs, buff close quarters battle...