50 replies to this topic

[FerrolupisXIII]

So, after being very excited about BAP countering ECM, i mounted it on most of my dedicated LRM mechs. and while it was nice sometimes, i and some friends in DWAR soon came to the same conclusion:

BAP is not worth the space it takes up on an LRM mech.

First, a few facts: http://mwo.gamepedia.com/BAP

That is the current iteration of the Beagle Active Probe. now, of note here are a few things.

• it counters 1 ECM within 150m
  
• it extends lock range by 25%
  
• 25% decreased target info acquisition time

these are what are relevant to an LRM mech. the extended lock range is nice but most of my time is spent inside tag range, and there is a module that gives a similar bonus, so this is merely a nice plus.



the second point is what i here people quote wrong a lot. BAP does NOT decrease lock time. it decreases the time it takes to get info on a target. i've lost count of the number of times someone says "but it decreases lock time!" no. you're wrong. it is a nice plus, but again there is a module that does it if you want it

Now, the big one! it counters 1 enemy ECM! within 150m

150m. 30m sorter than ECM's Disrupt range (180m). it is also inside LRM minimum range (180m), so we can not use our primary armament against ECM mechs within range.

Against fast ECM mechs (lights, the CIcada) you will not be able to keep out their range. so, on their way to you you will pass through 30m of ECM disruption to any lock you had. when they get inside 150, you will counter them but be reduced to using backup weapons to try and scare them away. so even with BAP im stuck shooting this Spider with some mediums, maybe a large or some streaks. terrific. if you do scare them off, they will jam you again for that 30m difference.

i could also choose, when i start countering, to continue with my business of LRMing something else, which leaves my back open to the light mech. taking defensive maneuvers makes it VERY hard to keep an LRM lock up, because you must stay pointed at that target. again, the BAP makes little difference as either im dead or not completing my primary task while im back to waving my lasers at a light.

against a D-DC, either you can keep range and use something like a TAG to counter his ECM, or you've utterly failed and have an atlas within BAP counter range and are probably a sack of scrap.

the ONLY time bap is nice is when youre stuck within 150m of an enemy ECM mech that is not moving, and you cant move either. then and only then is it nice. a not moving ECM light will probably die to your teammates shortly, an ECM atlas can be outrun.

that is why i no longer carry a BAP. it is so situational that i just cant justify it. instead of a BAP, take a TAG, or more ammo. just stay with your teammates. that light wont be able to hug you and shut you down with friends nearby. that D-DC was never really able to rush you anyways if you positioned yourself properly.
im sure there are many of you that disagree, how useful do you all find BAP?

[Ngamok]

I use BAP on mine only to counter lights that might circle me as I am shooting LRMs at something. I also carry an Advance Sensor Module that increases my BAP range by 25% as well as Target Decay Module on whatever LRM mech I am piloting (yes I have one of each and just switch them around as needed). But you are right in that BAP isn't required. It's just nice to have if you can fit it in.

[Cimarb]

I carry BAP for the extra sensor range, and as Ngamok said, it is good to disrupt enemies harassing you, who would otherwise be untargetable by your teammates. Really, though, ECM is overpowered regardless, so I don't use it as a counter. I instead enjoy the extra sensor range and anything else is a bonus.
EDIT: oh, and if I can tag someone, they can shoot me, which eliminates the whole advantage of LRMs in the first place, lol.

Edited by Cimarb, 12 November 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[Ngamok]

Cimarb, on 12 November 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I carry BAP for the extra sensor range, and as Ngamok said, it is good to disrupt enemies harassing you, who would otherwise be untargetable by your teammates. Really, though, ECM is overpowered regardless, so I don't use it as a counter. I instead enjoy the extra sensor range and anything else is a bonus.
EDIT: oh, and if I can tag someone, they can shoot me, which eliminates the whole advantage of LRMs in the first place, lol.

My LRM Stalker has 2xTAG (in the arms in case one side gets blown off at range, I still have TAG) as well as BAP. My BLR-1S has a TAG and no BAP, one of my TBTs has a TAG with BAP. Only LRM carrying mech with LRMs as primary weapons that doesn't is my ON1-VA and CLPT-A1. And neither have BAP also.

[Barantor]

Ngamok, on 12 November 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

I use BAP on mine only to counter lights that might circle me as I am shooting LRMs at something. I also carry an Advance Sensor Module that increases my BAP range by 25% as well as Target Decay Module on whatever LRM mech I am piloting (yes I have one of each and just switch them around as needed). But you are right in that BAP isn't required. It's just nice to have if you can fit it in.

This is why I carry it on mine. Yeah one ton of ammo is nice, but BAP can help me, help my team and if you are pugging it might be worth it.

If you aren't carrying advanced sensors on your LRM mechs... well... yeah....

[OneEyed Jack]

I always carry BAP for LRMs. It's more about keeping a harassing Light from being able to shut me down just by standing there, than for the other bonuses. Plus, on some LRM boats, I don't want to spend the module slot on Sensor Range. Specifically Stalkers, who only have 2, max, and priority goes to Target Decay.

You may not see the value, but I've played with LRMs enough to know that for me, it's worth it. But then, I play my LRM mechs differently than most, so YMMV.

[AlmightyAeng]

The BAP on an LRM 'mech isn't there to allow you to target an ECM mech. It's to counter an ECM 'mech circling you and preventing you from acquiring locks on OTHER distance-viable targets.

There was a time when sending a single ECM light to just SIT next to a couple of LRM-boats in the back was the most frustrating/amusing experience ever.

[FerrolupisXIII]

if a light is harassing you, you have to stop what you're doing anyways, shutting down your LRM's. if you're targeting other targets farther away, you're restricted in your maneuvering which will let the light just sit behind you and kill you because he knows you're ignoring him. very much a bad idea if you ask me. either way a BAP either isnt helping you much, or you're using it to try and get off a few more damage before that light kills you. i'd rather engage the light and keep myself alive to use the LRM's later.

the sensor range module stacks with BAP, not increases BAP range. a very big difference.

Yes, i understand that BAP counters that light mechs ECM so others can target it. but you shouldn't be so far away from your team that they cannot target it themselves. if that is the case you're way out of position.

[FireSlade]

Ghost Badger, on 12 November 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

The BAP on an LRM 'mech isn't there to allow you to target an ECM mech. It's to counter an ECM 'mech circling you and preventing you from acquiring locks on OTHER distance-viable targets.

There was a time when sending a single ECM light to just SIT next to a couple of LRM-boats in the back was the most frustrating/amusing experience ever.

This is why I have BAP on my C1. The whole point to LRM support is you are unseen hiding from the enemy while lobbing LRMs at the enemy that your team targets. So when an ECM light/Cicada decides to flank you team and puts you within their ECM bubble then you become useless to your team. Back before BAP countered ECM lights would just sit somewhere shutting down the teams LRM support without firing them firing a shot exposing them. This becomes a big issue because PUGs will tend to ignore what is happening around them even when you ask for help. Since putting BAP on my C1 I have less issues with this and I can target the ECM mech which will put a nice red arrow on my teams map which will get more attention than you writing something to warn them. It is funny too, even though I will put TAG on my LRM mechs a barely use it due to me sitting behind cover not exposing myself; although in PUGs this can be an issue since people will tend to forget that they can lock targets or will not even target their own target so I cannot lend support and thus must expose myself to even play.

[FerrolupisXIII]

I play a sort of Second Line LRM mech, stay with the team about 300-400m back from the front in a fairly quick mech, lock and bomb guys. 30+ ALRM + TAG tends to make a mess out of even assault mechs, plus im usually in range to use my mediums as well. i find this works much better than hiding and praying someone keeps locks up. any ECM mech immediately gains the ire of the entire team so usually wont stick around.

i rarely see a light mech that just sits there hiding near an LRM mech. they usually try and kill you. which even if they sit at max ecm range still puts them within medium laser range. *shrug* just my experience. i do swear about not having a BAP sometimes but %90 of the time i don't miss it a bit. usually if im ticked about it im probably screwed anyways, like when its late game and i just wanna take down that open assault/heavy before the light on my tail cores me out. im frequently one of the last few up so it wouldn't make all that much difference, just makes me feel good. lol.

as a side note, if you're playing non LOS LRM boat, you dont need Artemis or tag, which frees up the space for a BAP and an AMS on my C1 build. food for thought.

[Mercules]

BAP on my friend's Catapult means my couple of streaks on my Shadowhawk can seriously mess up the ECM light that comes to harass him. I tend to hang back with him and snipe with my 2 AC2s then deal with anything that tries to close with him. I've got 2 medium lasers and 2 streaks and I can tell you when that light's ECM cover goes away they tend to run especially if you have me plus two BAP LRM mechs back there with enough space between the two of them that one can dump LRMs onto anything that closes with the other. Since it adds in sensor range for them so they can target things out to the full range of the LRMs, and lets them figure out which part of the light or medium that just closed with them has no armor so they can use their close range weaponry more effectively, they don't mind spending the tonnage.

Edited by Mercules, 12 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Livewyr]

Feel free to leave your BAP in the armory.. I however will not be trolled by an ECM spider.

[Roadbeer]

BAP should be standard equipment on any mech that uses lock dependent missiles.
Just like paragraphs when posting.
Good LORD people.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I put BAP on damn near everything, but that's just me.

[Sug]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 12 November 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I put BAP on damn near everything, but that's just me.

Same.

[Suko]

OP, your POV is definitely one from a group mindset. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, I play with a group of two other guys or PUG and I can tell you that BAP is VERY nice. Sure, all the pros and cons you listed are spot on, but there is one you forgot: Within 150m, you can LOCK ONTO THE ENEMY. This means that your PUG teammates who're looking for an easy kill will know that you're getting arsed by a spider on your backside. Without BAP, your team wouldn't know you need help unless you spend the 10 seconds to type out the request and your location.

Do I put BAP on all my LRM mechs? No. But I think it is a much more useful tool in PUG play than group play. PUG matches almost require each mech to be completely self-reliant, because you sure as shat can't rely on your team mates to cover your butt.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 12 November 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

i fully admit to being a team player, so i can just tell my lance mates that there is an ECM light on me. true enough. i'll give you that point.

Roadbeer, on 12 November 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

BAP should be standard equipment on any mech that uses lock dependent missiles.
Just like paragraphs when posting.
Good LORD people.

i dont find BAP necessary when the only times it helps me i cant use my locking missiles on that ECM mech anyways, and personally i will not ignore a light mech near me to LRM another enemy unless i have a friendly light hunter with me. at which point, he can carry the BAP for his likely streak based armament.

i broke down points fairly well, at least it wasn't a solid Wall-O-Text. its a forum not Office 2013, leaves a little to be desired formatting wise.

[Roadbeer]

FerrolupisXIII, on 12 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

i fully admit to being a team player, so i can just tell my lance mates that there is an ECM light on me. true enough. i'll give you that point.

i dont find BAP necessary when the only times it helps me i cant use my locking missiles on that ECM mech anyways, and personally i will not ignore a light mech near me to LRM another enemy unless i have a friendly light hunter with me. at which point, he can carry the BAP for his likely streak based armament.

i broke down points fairly well, at least it wasn't a solid Wall-O-Text. its a forum not Office 2013, leaves a little to be desired formatting wise.

I wasn't bagging on you, just some of the follow up posts. You did make some very good points.
On my end, I just PREFER to have it, it's like a security blanket, and it does stack well with modules.
Its usefulness does exceed that of just being a close-range ECM counter. In my LRM builds, BAP goes on before defensive weaponry.

[Fut]

Roadbeer, on 12 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I wasn't bagging on you, just some of the follow up posts. You did make some very good points.
On my end, I just PREFER to have it, it's like a security blanket, and it does stack well with modules.
Its usefulness does exceed that of just being a close-range ECM counter. In my LRM builds, BAP goes on before defensive weaponry.

Agreed.
It's nice to be able to detect your opponents first while in an LRM Mech. It allows you to figure out the best firing position possible before they get too close.

All the other BAP effects are just gravy on top.

[TygerLily]

At 1.5 tons, the extra range and being able to fire LRMs when an ECM is near is MORE than worth it.