27 replies to this topic

[Lexx]

I think we are seeing far too many mechs carrying multiple AC/5s and AC/2s. With their current fire rate they have almost as much DPS as an AC/20 making carrying multiples of them the best weapon option in the game right now.

The smaller caliber autocannons aren't meant to be the high DPS weapons they are in MWO. They are meant to do less damage than the AC/10 and 20 but make up for that with longer range, less heat, and more ammo per ton.

What I propose is a small change that should help balance the game. The fire rate on the AC/2 should be slowed down to 1 second per volley. The ROF on the AC/5 should be 2. AC/10 should be at 3 seconds with the AC/20 at 4 seconds. I also feel the heat on the AC/2 and AC/5 should be cut down to about half what they generate now with the 10 and 20 staying the same.

This would make it better to mount a singe AC/2 or 5 on a hot running energy build and give more incentive to use the larger caliber guns.

[Khobai]

Autocannons need to fire in bursts. What makes autocannons so powerful is that they do all their damage at once to the same location. But if you split the damage up with burstfire they would be balanced.

[LordJops]

I think they are pretty balanced when you consider how heavy autocannons are, how few mechs can stack them, how much weight/space ammo takes up, etc. On builds where I've stacked, I've had to make some kind of major sacrifice to make it work either in the engine or armor department, sometimes both.

For the persistent pilot it can be a deadly build. I believe there are severe drawbacks however.

[General Taskeen]

But if Autocannons fire in really fast bursts (many bullets to "equal" the damage threshold of that cannon) then they fire like "lasers."

Just kidding guys/girls, that's an argument that just doesn't like to imagine a better Autocannon already done better in other Mech Warrior games. Oh and AC/2's being stupidly hot due to the heat system being poo since Day 1.

*Shrugs*

[Frankdark]

Sorry, everyone vote for not scaling done dps of AC/2 and AC/5 profe he knows nothing about balance.

As now AC dominate Battelfield in every asked.
More or less becouse of the broken Heat system.

It Should be more like

AC/2 1,2 sec
AC/5 2 sec
AC10 3 sec
AC20 4 sec

But i would prefer a total overhole of AC mechanic.

Including the factor that Ultra and Rotary are comming in future

Normal AC
Long Burst Long Reload
Ultra
Short Burst, short Reload, 10-20% mehr dps than normal AC
Rotary
Permanent Stream of Bullets ( like AC/2 now = Rotary AC/5 )
Lb-X.
One Shoot but Shootgun like

[MadcatX]

Khobai, on 17 December 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Autocannons need to fire in bursts. What makes autocannons so powerful is that they do all their damage at once to the same location. But if you split the damage up with burstfire they would be balanced.

So make AC's run off the same mechanic as laser (spreading the damage), LB 10x's? I agree that pinpoint damage is an issue, but not sure if this is necessarily the best course of action,

[Khobai]

Quote

So make AC's run off the same mechanic as laser (spreading the damage), LB 10x's? I agree that pinpoint damage is an issue, but not sure if this is necessarily the best course of action,

How else are you going to fix ACs. You have to reduce the pinpoint damage.

[Bhael Fire]

They should just get rid of all the weapons.

If its not one weapon, it's another hurting somebody's feelings.

We need to end this madness; get rid of all the weapons. Now.

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this

[StompyRobot100]

admitedly i love autocannons. but i really dont see how they are broken.

-they are heavy as hell and require ammo that can exploade and kill you.
-AC/2 are nothing more than heaters and even though they do something like 3.85 DPS its not that easy to hold them on target for more than a couple seconds when youre not face hugging
-AC/5s are hardly ever used because of the UAC/5 being great but that thing jams like crazy and throws you out of the fight for like 5 seconds wile it clears.
- 20s take up SO MUCH SPACE and the cycle time is already 4 seconds and they weapon speed is only like 900 even if they hit like a truck.
- Gauss Rifles have that stupid charge thing now AND a 5 second recycle time.

i cant see any reason why they are not baanced. most mechs can only carry one or two TOPS and the ammo puts you at a disadvantage already

AC-40 Jagers are anoying sure but Autocannons hardly need a rework.... pulse lazers on the other hand.....(i wan MW2 pulse lazers....)

[MadcatX]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

How else are you going to fix ACs. You have to reduce the pinpoint damage.

Ghost heat, JJ shake... all the BS we currently have implemented is to reduce pinpoint damage. And it's not working.

When/if AC's get "fixed", the next build will simply come along that has the next highest pinpoint damage.

As for convergence, there are chassis that can avoid it.

[Firewuff]

Ac are perfect as they are. The ac2 heat is a great balancer.. You can do massive DPs if you can stay on target but heat will be an issue. I have my wolvie with a twin ac2 build and it works a treat. There are really only a couple of mechs that can do 2 or 3 ac5's and either you have zero backup weps or low ammo which leaves you out of the fight pretty quick.... Its pretty balanced right now. If convergencewas slowed or modified ( no cconvergence on torso weps) then dual ac20 pinpoint would no longer be an issue either.

[psihius]

Problem is in the amount of ammunition they can carry for AC/2 and AC/5 (AC/10 is more or less balanced and does not need a lot of adjustment) and AC/20 is fine - you have to conserve your ammo when using it.

For the most part you can rely on your autocannons exclusively because you can take a lot of ammo with you. You do not need lasers or other type of weapons unless you specifically want a high peak DPS mech'.

Edited by psihius, 21 December 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Kataiser]

The trouble is range. If ACs had decreased range, they wouldn't be so stupidly powerful. I mean, the max range on the AC/2 is 2160 meters. Sure, it's basically scratching your paint at that range, but it's ridiculous.

AC/5s are 1700 meters, AC/10s 1350m, and AC/20s 810. Why not just bring these ranges down so that they aren't strictly better under most circumstances?

I'd like to see the optimal ranges dropped from 720/620/450/270 to 480/412/300/180, with max ranges dropped from 2160/1700/1350/810 to 1440/1236/900/540, with damage dropoff being slightly slower early on with these values. That'd justify the insane power of ballistics without losing the canonical damage and without resorting to burst fire, because I know lots of people oppose that.

I think that Gauss is OK, because it is supposed to be long range. Without the AC/2 to shake up Gauss users, though, it may need tweaks afterwards, or maybe PPCs/ERLLas would just see use for countersniping.

[fandre]

I suggest the following modifications for autocanons:

AC: slower fire rate, shorter range but still single bullet per shot with pinpoint damage. I like the big gun feeling of the AC20.
UAC: higher fire rate with current range but with burst fire per "shot"
RAC: highest fire rate with continous fire, current range, dmg dependent on fire rate and "caliber", chance to jam. It should have be the feeling of some kind of machine gun with higher dmg and slower but still continous firing.

For RAC fire rate could be even higher, when we get firing cones for the weapons.

Gauss should be reverted to klick and fire instead of the current charging mechanism. PPC should become weapons with splash dmg instead of pinpoint dmg.

Targeting should be affected by JJ, making it harder to jump snipe.For me, it is reasonable that using JJ would make weapon fire/targeting less accurate.

Edited by fandre, 21 December 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[ThreeRun]

hes right though. AC2/s and AC5/s do way more DPS than they should. THeyre supposed to trade range for DPS, since an AC20 cant exactly return fire. Free small damage vs no damage. On the other hand, now they're free large damage vs no damage. It's not very good design.

[Noth]

ThreeRun, on 21 December 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

hes right though. AC2/s and AC5/s do way more DPS than they should. THeyre supposed to trade range for DPS, since an AC20 cant exactly return fire. Free small damage vs no damage. On the other hand, now they're free large damage vs no damage. It's not very good design.

You do realize that AC2 would not be used at all if they were like in TT right? The only thing that makes them decent is their rate of fire.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd consider increasing the cooldown for AC/2s to 0.60 to help make them run cooler, if only tweaking between those two mentioned.



Otherwise, I think we need more variety with ballistic weapons at least.

Spoiler

[Sybreed]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this

really? again? Jesus, man.

[Sandpit]

Sybreed, on 22 December 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

really? again? Jesus, man.

Really? Really again? again? sweet baby jesus! ANOTHER DUPLICATE THREAD???

http://mwomercs.com/...istic-vs-laser/
http://mwomercs.com/...cs-overpowered/
http://mwomercs.com/...-vs-ballistics/
http://mwomercs.com/...visions-thread/
http://mwomercs.com/...ow/page__st__20
http://mwomercs.com/...or-and-physics/
http://mwomercs.com/...u-balance-them/
http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/
http://mwomercs.com/...meta-right-now/
http://mwomercs.com/...-vs-true-range/
http://mwomercs.com/...-vs-true-range/

and that's just digging as deep as the second page of a search for "ballistics"

So yes, again.