259 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 22 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I don't ahve anything against it. I play it form time to time. I enjoy it when I do. I just don't understand hating on other modes now or saying tactics are invalidated in the other modes

A lot of it though, for pugs, is perception.

On Assault there's no way to be sure which of your teammates will hide and cap, who will hang back, what anyone else on your team is really planning. There aren't a lot of options - the threat of capping or being capped is constant. You're not on the same page.

On Conquest it's similar but a little more dynamic. Do you split up and cap or stick together and cap. Those are your two options but at least there's a little fluidity moving between them.

On skirmish though there's a sense of 'all in the same boat'. You know the general plan - kill all the other guys - but after 5 matches in skirmish the vulnerabilities of the typical 'we'll just blob and wander around' kicks you in the teeth. You need coordination, mobility, flexibility and mutual support. You see the value of scouting because you don't ignore mechs off alone and assume they're just trying to cap.

It's the loss of the 'cheap trick' to save you too. You'll win or lose based on how well you deploy, how well you handle the battle, how well your team keeps each other alive. The more someone plays Skirmish the clearer and clearer this gets. For a pug it's surprisingly close to playing 12mans, just without having to pop on TS or get everyone together or wait for someone to have a smoke or put their kids to bed or make a pit stop or get their baked potatos out of the oven or take out the trash or.... well, you get the idea.

Common comms are horrible. No accountability and it drags out the worst in people. Most of us don't want it. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy teamwork and coordination. Skirmish rewards that in spades, promotes and supports it.

That's the main reason. Try to coordinate a pincer movement with pugs on Assault. Never happen - if you're behind the enemy you go cap and get some to rush back to base. If you're in a light there's a sense that you're most useful capping or counter-capping. Lights and mediums come into their own when they have no choice but to find and fill a niche for their team. Flanking, harassing and wolfpacking for loners being the best of this.

Drop Skirmish exclusively for 20 matches while pugging, then do the same for assault/conquest and tell me if you don't seen and feel the difference. I expect attack/defense will be similar - very much looking forward to it. Capping though.... capping was a crutch for bads and an excuse to troll both your team and the other. Pug skirmish and play like you are in 12mans without comms. You'll get what I mean. The vibe will be familiar and if you enjoy that it's pretty awesome.

[Asmudius Heng]

Sandpit, on 22 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I don't ahve anything against it. I play it form time to time. I enjoy it when I do. I just don't understand hating on other modes now or saying tactics are invalidated in the other modes

I dont know if it is hatred for those game modes from most people.

I quite enjoy conquest, but i felt assault limited tactical movement so much it was not my cup of tea. I also felt that PGI wanted assault to be played differently that it actually was in some ways.

What most people were annoyed at is that skirmish was NOT an option for so long. It was so easy to implement but the unfounded claims of greifing were listened to and those who like TDM were denied this and many areas of the maps went totally unused.

So not hatred for the game modes (though they have said they will revamp assault showing it needs something to help it) its more annoyance at PGI for resisting this idea for so long.

The hatred seems to flow from the other side against Skirmish it seems to me ...

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Some interesting discussion here. If I could bring myself to boot the game up I might be swayed that mobility still has some role to play in this mode.

Nevertheless, conceptually I still don't understand why mobility, especially light mechs, should matter when Skirmish is played in a 12-man competitive context. Sure in PUG games there may open up opportunities for fast mechs to isolate stragglers, but in 12-mans where the team stays tight, there's no reason why 12 highlanders should ever be able to be beaten in a Skirmish match by a team of comparable skill pilots in lighter machines. The poptarts can just go set up in the best ridge position and snipe the **** out of anything that draws near from any direction.

Lots of talk about "flanking" in this thread but honestly flanking is pretty useless in competitive 12-man Mechwarrior because the heaviest mech once elited can still turn quickly and bring all its guns to bear in seconds. The only exception from my personal experience was one 8 man when I was able to get behind a bunch of tunnel vision 3D poptarts with my ac20 jager and take a couple of them out until the rest noticed me, turned on me and blew me away, and went back to sniping the rest of my team. Flankers by definition are outnumbered by the blob so will die when a voice communicating blob notices them.

Seems to me that a slow sniper blob of top tier players should theoretically rule in 12-man skirmish even more than any other game mode. There's no way to break them up or draw them out like there is in the other two modes.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 23 December 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Sandpit]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 23 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Some interesting discussion here. If I could bring myself to boot the game up I might be swayed that mobility still has some role to play in this mode.

Nevertheless, conceptually I still don't understand why mobility, especially light mechs, should matter when Skirmish is played in a 12-man competitive context. Sure in PUG games there may open up opportunities for fast mechs to isolate stragglers, but in 12-mans where the team stays tight, there's no reason why 12 highlanders should ever be able to be beaten in a Skirmish match by a team of comparable skill pilots in lighter machines. The poptarts can just go set up in the best ridge position and snipe the **** out of anything that draws near from any direction.

Lots of talk about "flanking" in this thread but honestly flanking is pretty useless in competitive 12-man Mechwarrior because the heaviest mech once elited can still turn quickly and bring all its guns to bear in seconds. The only exception from my personal experience was one 8 man when I was able to get behind a bunch of tunnel vision 3D poptarts with my ac20 jager and take a couple of them out until the rest noticed me, turned on me and blew me away, and went back to sniping the rest of my team. Flankers by definition are outnumbered by the blob so will die when a voice communicating blob notices them.

Seems to me that a slow sniper blob of top tier players should theoretically rule in 12-man skirmish even more than any other game mode. There's no way to break them up or draw them out like there is in the other two modes.

when was the last time you played?

[StaIker]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 23 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Some interesting discussion here. If I could bring myself to boot the game up I might be swayed that mobility still has some role to play in this mode. Nevertheless, conceptually I still don't understand why mobility, especially light mechs, should matter when Skirmish is played in a 12-man competitive context. Sure in PUG games there may open up opportunities for fast mechs to isolate stragglers, but in 12-mans where the team stays tight, there's no reason why 12 highlanders should ever be able to be beaten in a Skirmish match by a team of comparable skill pilots in lighter machines. The poptarts can just go set up in the best ridge position and snipe the **** out of anything that draws near from any direction. Lots of talk about "flanking" in this thread but honestly flanking is pretty useless in competitive 12-man Mechwarrior because the heaviest mech once elited can still turn quickly and bring all its guns to bear in seconds. The only exception from my personal experience was one 8 man when I was able to get behind a bunch of tunnel vision 3D poptarts with my ac20 jager and take a couple of them out until the rest noticed me, turned on me and blew me away, and went back to sniping the rest of my team. Flankers by definition are outnumbered by the blob so will die when a voice communicating blob notices them. Seems to me that a slow sniper blob of top tier players should theoretically rule in 12-man skirmish even more than any other game mode. There's no way to break them up or draw them out like there is in the other two modes.

There is a lot of mixed meaning when people talk about flanking, some mean it to be just a scout mech on the enemy flank, some mean it to be a split force with one part attacking from a flank and some mean it to mean the main body of the force striking the enemy flank to achieve a decisive effect.

It is difficult to explain the many variables involved in a flanking attack (where the main force is attacking the enemy flank) however the basic concept is to disrupt the defenders firing position by forcing them to change their firing arcs. Positions that are ideal to cover a north facing attack for example, will more than likely be unsuitable to defend against an east facing attack. The change of direction will force many of the blob to reposition to maintain lines of fire and if the attacker has manoeuvred with skill, the defending blob will be forced into highly unfavourable positions from which they cannot win the exchange of fire. The defenders are left with the decision to stand and fight in a losing battle or to retreat under fire, both of which will probably result in their loss of the game.

It requires much more skill and coordination than you might expect on the part of the stationary team to defend against a well executed flanking attack. Most positions cannot be held in the face of a flank attack and the best course of action is usually to withdraw early and prevent any damage from combat.

Manoeuver is everything when it comes to forcing a decisive engagement on the enemy, the players and teams that master it will inevitably master their opponents as well.

[Thorn Hallis]

Roland, on 18 December 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

This never happens.
It was an imagined "danger" of TDM which doesn't happen in reality.

It does happen.

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't really see a difference between Assault and Skermish. Both end with one side dead. Usually.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 December 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I don't really see a difference between Assault and Skermish. Both end with one side dead. Usually.

You don't find that fights tend to sway towards area's that would normally be completely ignored due to having to defend caps? I've only done like 8 or 9 Skirmishes and I can already see a different style.

[Lyoto Machida]

Thorn Hallis, on 23 December 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

It does happen.

Well, I'm saying it doesn't...see how that works?

Joseph Mallan, on 23 December 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I don't really see a difference between Assault and Skermish. Both end with one side dead. Usually.

Since I've been playing Skirmish, I've had more matches end via timer in the other modes than in Skirmish (which is 0 in probably 30+ Skirmish games)...again, anecdotal evidence but the devs could clear this up. Also see different parts of the match used in Skirmish, which is refreshing in itself.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 December 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

You don't find that fights tend to sway towards area's that would normally be completely ignored due to having to defend caps? I've only done like 8 or 9 Skirmishes and I can already see a different style.

Skirmish games use different parts of the map that are untouched in other modes. Maybe people REALLY don't like change and thus complain about something that is different.

[MischiefSC]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 23 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Some interesting discussion here. If I could bring myself to boot the game up I might be swayed that mobility still has some role to play in this mode.

Nevertheless, conceptually I still don't understand why mobility, especially light mechs, should matter when Skirmish is played in a 12-man competitive context. Sure in PUG games there may open up opportunities for fast mechs to isolate stragglers, but in 12-mans where the team stays tight, there's no reason why 12 highlanders should ever be able to be beaten in a Skirmish match by a team of comparable skill pilots in lighter machines. The poptarts can just go set up in the best ridge position and snipe the **** out of anything that draws near from any direction.

Lots of talk about "flanking" in this thread but honestly flanking is pretty useless in competitive 12-man Mechwarrior because the heaviest mech once elited can still turn quickly and bring all its guns to bear in seconds. The only exception from my personal experience was one 8 man when I was able to get behind a bunch of tunnel vision 3D poptarts with my ac20 jager and take a couple of them out until the rest noticed me, turned on me and blew me away, and went back to sniping the rest of my team. Flankers by definition are outnumbered by the blob so will die when a voice communicating blob notices them.

Seems to me that a slow sniper blob of top tier players should theoretically rule in 12-man skirmish even more than any other game mode. There's no way to break them up or draw them out like there is in the other two modes.

Hey 5th! Haven't seen you in forever. Swing by and we'll run Skirmish together, it'll be a blast, like hold times.

Here's the difference with the Highlanders - where are you going to set up that can't be flanked? The other team, if it's faster and more mobile, will set up on 2 sides of you and retreat if you try to (slowly) advance on one of them. I've watched it happen a couple of times. There's no way to force the other team to fight when or where you want. They have 15 minutes to maneuver you into a bad position and you get 12 poptarts with PPCs inside of 90 meters getting shot from two sides and it gets bad fast. Most of them have almost no rear armor in favor of more front armor.

I'm curious to see how Skirmish works in 12mans. I can say that in pugs people who try to 'dig in' tend to get done poorly by. Airstrikes, artillery, being shot from multiple directions making cover inconsistent, the most successful groups I've seen are ones that keep in the 70s-90s for speed and stay on the move. One of the only 12-0 stomps I've been in was on Alpine. I literally walked backwards, helping 2 other pugs guard our trailing left flank as we circled right on the other team. They were mostly slow and heavy and the cataphracts and highlanders went down early. Setting up to snipe takes time and we were always gone by the time he was in position to get more than 1 shot at any one target, suddenly he's getting shot in the back and side and had to run off again.

On the whole though my 'average' Skirmish match has been as good as 'great' Assault matches used to be and the 'great' matches are phenomenal. Win or lose have both been fun, even the 'rolls' because the tactics that led to it are clearer. You can say 'You snuck 4 mechs into a blind spot on our left flank and while we did say 'flank on left' nobody responded, we took fire from two directions and got chewed. Well played'. You can't do that on Assault most games. Blobs don't win so much and when they do you'll find them more of a 'line' or an 'L' as they pin the enemy, deprive them of cover and chew them up.

Joseph Mallan, on 23 December 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I don't really see a difference between Assault and Skermish. Both end with one side dead. Usually.

Night and day for me. I admit I haven't grouped since Skirmish has come out but the pugging experience for me is amazing.

[PropagandaWar]

aniviron, on 17 December 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I agree, nothing says "This is Battletech" quite like a Jenner hiding somewhere in Tourmaline, undiscoverable and shutdown for ten minutes. Good times.

I'm guessing what you are experiencing is patch-day euphoria. Don't worry, it will wear off. It turns out that normally, one-legged Jenners don't kill Atlases very often. This is happening mostly because today is one of the two days every month when people come back to see if anything worthwhile has changed.

Call them out talk mass {Scrap} .They say its tactics well if your down 5 mechs and your in a light I say its cowardly wuss mode. Report me I dont care. In skirmish there is only one thing and that is to fight. My team has done it twice. Nobody likes those guys. Aside from that Skirmish rocks. It ultilizes more of the map and has constant positioning struggles. When Assault mode gets turrets and or we get Attack/Defend Ill go back to that mode or at least add it in. Conquest is still Bleh to me.

[Roland]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 23 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Seems to me that a slow sniper blob of top tier players should theoretically rule in 12-man skirmish even more than any other game mode. There's no way to break them up or draw them out like there is in the other two modes.

But you can simply surround them and pound on them from advantageous positions.

There's not really any one magical spot where you are just perfectly positioned against any assaulting location.

[Lyoto Machida]

PropagandaWar, on 23 December 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Call them out talk mass {Scrap} .They say its tactics well if your down 5 mechs and your in a light I say its cowardly wuss mode. Report me I dont care. In skirmish there is only one thing and that is to fight. My team has done it twice. Nobody likes those guys. Aside from that Skirmish rocks. It ultilizes more of the map and has constant positioning struggles. When Assault mode gets turrets and or we get Attack/Defend Ill go back to that mode or at least add it in. Conquest is still Bleh to me.

I'm sure it's happened a couple times here and there but not like the Chicken Littles around here are making it sound...just haven't seen it happen (successfully) myself.

[IceNinja]

I like all the game modes, but Skirmish is my favorite. Hope they don`t nerf it because of all the whiners who don`t like it. It`s rather simple though , if you do not like a game mode ,simply don't play it..sheeeesh.

[NRP]

Skirmish is just as much of a cluster f%@k as Assault. Which isn't surprising I guess, as it's the same damn game mode.

We need different game modes, not Deathmatch V1, Deathmatch V2, Deathmatch V3, etc.

[Brother MEX]

IceNinja, on 25 December 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

I like all the game modes, but Skirmish is my favorite. Hope they don`t nerf it because of all the whiners who don`t like it. It`s rather simple though , if you do not like a game mode ,simply don't play it..sheeeesh.

I HATE skirmish mode because of some "features" which make is last the full time with no way to end it earlier if someone hides and powers down

I think skirmish mode should be restricted to teams with 12, and not be available for teams with 4 or less !
Another way to circumvent the problems with hidden powered down players would be to treat powered down mechs like discontinued mechs ( except that they can power up again if not all remaining players on one side have powered down ).

Servus, MEX

PS: From my point of view skirmish is a CRIPPLED assault mode as it doesnt offer anything that cant be played in assault mode !

Edited by Brother MEX, 29 December 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Ens]

Brother MEX, on 29 December 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

I HATE skirmish mode because of some "features" which make is last the full time with no way to end it earlier if someone hides and powers down

PS: From my point of view skirmish is a CRIPPLED assault mode as it doesnt offer anything that cant be played in assault mode !

this!

[Nick Makiaveli]

MischiefSC, on 17 December 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

capping is just an act of boredom.

Really? So you don't try to RTB, you just give up? And you find no enjoyment out of actually thinking about tactics so you can fight and still cover your base? Not interested in drawing off some of the enemy line to give your team an edge?

Yes much better to just rush to the center (well rush is a relative term since everyone brings Assaults now) and duke it out.

Sorry but I prefer the version of MWO where you can still see evidence that it was once a thinking man's shooter.

[MischiefSC]

Brother MEX, on 29 December 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

I HATE skirmish mode because of some "features" which make is last the full time with no way to end it earlier if someone hides and powers down

I think skirmish mode should be restricted to teams with 12, and not be available for teams with 4 or less !
Another way to circumvent the problems with hidden powered down players would be to treat powered down mechs like discontinued mechs ( except that they can power up again if not all remaining players on one side have powered down ).

Servus, MEX

PS: From my point of view skirmish is a CRIPPLED assault mode as it doesnt offer anything that cant be played in assault mode !

Huh. I've still never seen this on Skirmish, though I do see it from time to time on Assault. I find Assault to be Skirmish with training wheels on. To each their own.

Nick Makiaveli, on 29 December 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Really? So you don't try to RTB, you just give up? And you find no enjoyment out of actually thinking about tactics so you can fight and still cover your base? Not interested in drawing off some of the enemy line to give your team an edge?

Yes much better to just rush to the center (well rush is a relative term since everyone brings Assaults now) and duke it out.

Sorry but I prefer the version of MWO where you can still see evidence that it was once a thinking man's shooter.

I've covered this, repeatedly, elsewhere, but here you go again -

The point of Assault is you have to think less. Caps provide magic boxes that let you control and predict the battles. Without them you have to adapt on the fly or plan further in advance as well as coordinate with your team to control the time and place of engagements.

Skirmish is the thinking mans shooter because there is no magic trick to let you win regardless of how well you and your team fought. Capping trumps any and all other tactics in Assault - you fight as an adjunct to capping as capping is the easiest way to victory. It ties both teams to two specific points, dramatically limiting tactical flexibility and options.

Skirmish is Assault with no training wheels. You want to split the other team up? Do it by drawing fire, playing the wounded robin and having allies in an ambush position. Do it by artillery or LRM fire suppressing the area separating the slower from faster mechs while your team moves into to exploit the divide. You can not count on the enemy going through particular routes or areas or specific locations. The fight has no reason to be tied to the approximate middle of the map or within sprinting distance of either cap.

No cheap tricks, no tying either team to a location. Battlefield tactics, you'll win based on how well you fight, coordinate and maneuver. Not by standing in a box for ~60 seconds or keeping them from standing in yours but by out-maneuvering, flanking and fighting the enemy.

Skirmish still is the thinking mans shooter. I can see where that might not appeal to everyone though.

[990Dreams]

• Skirmish Mode: A battle. This is when you get paid to beat the tar out of your enemy.
  
• Assault: Secure a transport route, as an example.
  
• Conquest: Secure a mining plant or HPG Station, as an example.