61 replies to this topic

[Corralis]

So I was talking last night to a few guys from my gaming group regarding Clan Tech and there were a few issues that we came across that we feel need to be answered as a matter of some urgency.

The first question is specifically related to Clan Weapons and the Clan LRM 20 in particular. According to the Dev post, the Clan LRM 20 is currently being designed to be increased in weight from 5 to 7 tons. While this still makes them far lighter than IS tech LRM 20's it does raise an interesting point regarding the Clan Mech variants. Take for example the Timber Wolf. This Mech has 2 Clan LRM 20's as standard and if they are being increased in weight by 2 tons, where is the extra 4 tons coming from to be able to fit them in? What are we losing to make them fit?

The second question which I feel is the most important is that if the Omnimech's are being designed according to the Dev post where you can't change your Engine/Armor/Internals etc., will it be possible for IS Mech's to be able to fit and use Clan Tech weapons? In my opinion, I see no reason why they should not be allowed to as other Mechwarrior games have allowed any mech to fit any weapon they want to. Now if IS Mech's can fit Clan Tech, then by simply running a Clan Mech you are basically going to be gimping yourself due to the lack of customizing options available to you. Basically speaking, Clan Tech on IS Mech's will be far more efficient than Clan Tech on Clan Mech's, especially if you can also fit Clan DHS's to IS Mech's.

I just want to point out here that I applaud PGI for their attempt to balance Clan Tech, due to the very nature of Clan Tech being the most over-powered thing in the galaxy. I feel like you are certainly heading in the right direction with what you have talked about so far and yes I am fully aware that the figures you have shown us are not final but they are the only thing I can relate to and as such must use those figures in any questions I may have.

Finally I want to say that I do not want this thread to turn into yet another flame PGI thread. I don't care about the price of the Clan Package, I don't care about the price of the gold Mech's and I really don't care about any opinion you may have unless it specifically relates to those two questions above.

Thank you.

P.S. there will not be a tl;dr so don't ask for one.

Edited by Corralis, 18 December 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[CyclonerM]

I understood that they were thinking about increasing the CLRM20's weight.. If they do i can only assume they will replace them with CLRM15s

Canonically, Clan weapons are mounted on "Omni-pods" so Clan and IS tech are totally incompatible. It took several years to spheroid scientist to reverse-engineer the OmniMech technology.

On the other hand you could mount an Inner Sphere weapon on a Clan OmniMech but it would be a fixed weapon making it effectively a standard BattleMech.

From Twitter i think they will choose to not allow mixtech ( ) but they are thinking about letting IS players buy Clan 'Mechs via a black market.. I sincerely hope they do not.

[Corralis]

CyclonerM, on 18 December 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

On the other hand you could mount an Inner Sphere weapon on a Clan OmniMech but it would be a fixed weapon making it effectively a standard BattleMech.

Why would you ever want to do this?

CyclonerM, on 18 December 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

I understood that they were thinking about increasing the CLRM20's weight.. If they do i can only assume they will replace them with CLRM15s

And this is the thing they really should be trying to avoid at all costs.

CyclonerM, on 18 December 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

From Twitter i think they will choose to not allow mixtech ( ) but they are thinking about letting IS players buy Clan 'Mechs via a black market.. I sincerely hope they do not.

I can see that happening for the House Units but how are you gonna tell a Merc that they can not buy a Clan Mech?

[Goldhawk]

Only if the Clan mechs are insanely expensive both for House Units and for Mercs. They must be at least 2x times the cost of an IS mech of the same class. Hell, seeing an Uller for about 36,000,000 would not bother me at all.

[Source Control]

IMO they should throw caution to the wind and leave Clan Tech as it is. Yes, it's overpowering, but since when in war is there ever an even fight? There is always a side that has some advantage in some way, weather it be technology, geography, ect.

To balance teams, pit more IS mechs vs Clan Mechs.. 12 vs 8 or make scenarios in which Clan Mechs are the invaders attempting to seige an enemy base (geography favoring IS); the home team (IS) has the advantage, perhaps with Drop-ship support or weapon batteries to boot. This would make game play enjoyable for both sides and the scenario would be cannon to the story. If we were ever to have this style game play, I would be happy to be on either team since both side would have their strengths.

In addition, he game could offer certain bonuses to defenders (an incentive) or something like that. I say, don't change the Mech, change the scenario or game play.

[Karl Streiger]

Source Control, on 18 December 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

IMO they should throw caution to the wind and leave Clan Tech as it is. Yes, it's overpowering, but since when in war is there ever an even fight? There is always a side that has some advantage in some way, weather it be technology, geography, ect.

Well - i wouldn't have any problem if they made clan tech twice as good....

give me enough mines artillery and numbers - > so for example: 16 vs 5 Mechs + 16 Artillerie Strikes for the IS side + NPC VTOLs with inferno srms and minefields

But I don't think that this game is designed around imbalance - you need different numbers - terrain and start points that favours a side - and leave the other in a worser starting location.

But while i expect that battles will be mixed (clans and IS) mechs in the same drops - and fighting 12 vs 12 they have to balance clan tech - in a workable fashion.....

(or they bring the Celestial Package 2 months after the Clan package)
Malack - 20$
Grigori - 40$
Seraph - 60$ - including - neural interface
Preta - 80$ - including neural interface + 1 weapon of mass destruction
Deva 100$ - including neural interface + 2 weapons of mass destruction
Archangel 120$ - including neural interface + 3 weapons of mass destruction
Omega 200$ -- including neural interface + 4 weapons of mass destruction

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 December 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Corralis, on 18 December 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Why would you ever want to do this?

I do not want to do it indeed. I only said it is possible in the lore IIRC.

Quote

And this is the thing they really should be trying to avoid at all costs.

Oh, i agree, but try to give me a better solution if they make CLRMs weigh more without changing any canon build..

Quote

I can see that happening for the House Units but how are you gonna tell a Merc that they can not buy a Clan Mech?

"You have all the nice stuff, contracts, planetary assaults, Dropships, custom decals (probably), your own ranks etc. etc. but you could hardly have the resources to make work, maintain efficient or even salvage Clan 'Mechs so you are not going to have them, stravag!"

[Corralis]

Source Control, on 18 December 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

IMO they should throw caution to the wind and leave Clan Tech as it is. Yes, it's overpowering, but since when in war is there ever an even fight? There is always a side that has some advantage in some way, weather it be technology, geography, ect.

To balance teams, pit more IS mechs vs Clan Mechs.. 12 vs 8 or make scenarios in which Clan Mechs are the invaders attempting to seige an enemy base (geography favoring IS); the home team (IS) has the advantage, perhaps with Drop-ship support or weapon batteries to boot. This would make game play enjoyable for both sides and the scenario would be cannon to the story. If we were ever to have this style game play, I would be happy to be on either team since both side would have their strengths.

In addition, he game could offer certain bonuses to defenders (an incentive) or something like that. I say, don't change the Mech, change the scenario or game play.

I think the Clan Command Chair post has already said that making the team imbalanced would not happen as it just wouldn't be as much fun. As I said in my original post, I like what PGI are trying to do. Keeping Clan Tech better but requiring more skill to use is a good idea. I'm just worried more about the points I have raised in my original post. I'm not trying to start another 'how to balance the Clans' thread.

[Corralis]

CyclonerM, on 18 December 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Oh, i agree, but try to give me a better solution if they make CLRMs weigh more without changing any canon build..

"You have all the nice stuff, contracts, planetary assaults, Dropships, custom decals (probably), your own ranks etc. etc. but you could hardly have the resources to make work, maintain efficient or even salvage Clan 'Mechs so you are not going to have them, stravag!"

Well that's the whole point of this thread, I can't think of a better solution other than to keep weapons exactly the same as Lore. Increasing the weight of any weapon would be a bad idea IMO as it would ruin nearly all the variants of Clan Mech's. Weight has to stay the same but either reduce damage or increase heat or some other way to compensate for the inherent advantage that Clan Tech brings. I personally like the idea of keeping Clan Tech as is but making it require more skill to use is probably the best idea here.

As for the second point, I think your trying to keep Clan mech's exclusive which I don't really agree with cause I'm in a Merc Corp and I wanna use Clan mech's. However I am in a big Corp with lots of members and resources so we can afford to do anything we want... Even maintain Clan mech's if we so choose

[CyclonerM]

Corralis, on 18 December 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

As for the second point, I think your trying to keep Clan mech's exclusive which I don't really agree with cause I'm in a Merc Corp and I wanna use Clan mech's. However I am in a big Corp with lots of members and resources so we can afford to do anything we want... Even maintain Clan mech's if we so choose

So good luck finding replacement for destroyed limbs or equipment , spent ammo or even software for your salvaged Clan 'Mechs

[NocturnalBeast]

If an IS player buys a clan pack, can that person put the clan weapons on their IS mechs?

[Steven Dixon]

I'm also not a huge fan of changing the weights of the weapons, but as of right now they are just considering it and I do understand that for some reason the original designers decided to make clan LRMs significantly lighter than IS LRMs. They might pull the weight by removing the machine guns or removing heat sinks perhaps. My guess is that they will only increase the weight of the LRMs if they feel that they can keep the same feel of all of the clan builds with the increased weight.

They might allow you to purchase clan tech via the black market. My guess is that to purchase it, it will cost a huge amount of money (it is the black market) and it will probably be a high level 'unlock'. For example: perhaps you have to reach rank 2 in wolfs dragoons to purchase a clan medium laser and rank 4 to purchase a clan large laser, ect and you have to max out all other factions to even unlock wolf's dragoons.

Ed Steele, on 18 December 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

If an IS player buys a clan pack, can that person put the clan weapons on their IS mechs?

No, they have said via twitter that as of right now you can't mix tech.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 18 December 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Maybe we should collect all the questions regarding Clanmechs into one topic? I'd add the following:

- who can use Clanmechs and equipment (i.e. mixed lances of Clan & IS Mechs possible yes/no)?
- built-in CASE at no cost for ammunition?
- how does the targeting computer work?

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 18 December 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Tombstoner]

The clan damage bonus can be treated as raw damage exactly like TT with issues or as increased ammo per tone. 50% damage can be translated into 50% more ammo. energy weapons would have lower heat generation. possible lower damage drop off at max range. also higher rates of fire.

range bonuses can be damage drop off for LRM's missles have a chance to run out of fuel.
energy weapons better damage drop off at max range.

PGI has lotes of options to translate clan tech reasonably well and still preserve the over all clan tech advantage without it being OP.

Weight changes are problematic because it will change standard load outs for all clan mechs. this should not be done. it too big a change. same for volume changes.

What i'm hoping for is that PGI will listen to the community for a change. toss us a thanks once in a while.
say your thoughts have been tabulated and passed onto paul for review. please keep it up your input is valuable to use... contrary to public opinion.

Edited by Tombstoner, 18 December 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Davers]

No where in the sale did it mention that you had to be a Clanner to buy those mechs. In fact, there is currently no Clan factions at all. It is pretty obvious that Clan and IS mechs will be on the same teams. When Clans become playable factions they will be able to use IS mechs. Clan tech would have to remain incompatible with IS mechs, or every IS weapon would become extinct.

[VanillaG]

For the Clan LRMs, increase the recycle time and decrease amount of ammo per ton. For example, one ton of CLRM ammo is 120 instead of 180. Clan mechs would have to carry more ammo which equates to more weight for the entire system (launcher + ammo) and with a slight longer recycle time you get them close (but slightly better) to the DPS of IS launchers.

[Corralis]

Ed Steele, on 18 December 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

If an IS player buys a clan pack, can that person put the clan weapons on their IS mechs?

It looks as though that's a big no. No Clan Tech on IS Mechs'. It's a shame but it would essentially make IS Mechs' far more powerful than Clan Mechs' due to the customization limitations on Clan Mechs'.

Davers, on 18 December 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

No where in the sale did it mention that you had to be a Clanner to buy those mechs. In fact, there is currently no Clan factions at all. It is pretty obvious that Clan and IS mechs will be on the same teams. When Clans become playable factions they will be able to use IS mechs. Clan tech would have to remain incompatible with IS mechs, or every IS weapon would become extinct.

Well I certainly don't think they will stop Clan and IS units mixing because they would be p*ssing off a lot of their customer base if they did that.

[Corralis]

Tombstoner, on 18 December 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Weight changes are problematic because it will change standard load outs for all clan mechs. this should not be done. it too big a change. same for volume changes.

What i'm hoping for is that PGI will listen to the community for a change. toss us a thanks once in a while.
say your thoughts have been tabulated and passed onto paul for review. please keep it up your input is valuable to use... contrary to public opinion.

Well your first point is basically now the number one question that needs to be answered by the Dev's at this point.

As to your second point, well, I'm pretty sure that no one of any import actually reads these forums, their too busy on their Twitter account to listen to their own forums but you never know, one day one of these guys is gonna surprise us.

[TibsVT]

VanillaG, on 18 December 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

For the Clan LRMs, increase the recycle time and decrease amount of ammo per ton. For example, one ton of CLRM ammo is 120 instead of 180. Clan mechs would have to carry more ammo which equates to more weight for the entire system (launcher + ammo) and with a slight longer recycle time you get them close (but slightly better) to the DPS of IS launchers.

No Canon Clan Omni I know of in the invasion was able to carry more then 1 tonne of ammo per weapon. This would be a ludicrous idea. They simply do NOT have the tonnage or space.

Edited by KelesK, 18 December 2013 - 11:50 PM.

[akkelemvor]

It has been a while since I took a long look at the clan mechs and the lore, since I honestly always prefered 3025 as setting and for playing battletech, but isn't the clan endo steel and ferro-fiberous armor better? Don't their XL engines weight less as well and take up fewer slots?? if thats the case a clan mech will always be able to mount more weapons, armor, and be faster than any intersphere varient.

So going back to your original post, a clan mech with clan tech, should always be better than an intersphere mech with clan tech.

And another point clan mechs always carried more weapons, which would translate into more hard points. I know I'm dreading the 12 medium laser nova already...

or... I'm completely off base here and I tender my regrets for putting out yet more false info.