61 replies to this topic

[Kali Rinpoche]

IMO:
Leave tonnage as is.
Leave range or slightly reduce it, but increase heat.
CLRM behave exactly like IS LRMs.
Limit amount of SSRM launchers fired to 2 per 8 secs. Launch all missiles at once. (Say you are sporting 4 SSRM 6's, you can fire two, but all 4 launchers are greyed out for 8 secs.)
Leave charge up mechanic on clan gauss, remove charge time on IS gauss.
ER PPCs 13 instead of 15 damage.

Just be thankful that this is Clan Tech not the utterly ludicrous WoB era, Jihad silliness!

Could you imagine trying to game balance this?
Bionics, cyber-implants, celestial battlemechs, stealth armor, iC3 networks, Improved targeting computers, hyper-velocity ACs, variable speed lasers, snub-nosed PPCs, MML, SDS, rotary AC40 with sound seeking nuclear tipped shells. (j/k)

The Jihad was the worst thing to every happened to BT. Clan tech was a close second in terms of balance.

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 20 December 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Outlaw]

The flaw with the numbers game, and or nerfing Clan tech is that IS mechs will continue to be more "Omni" than Clan mechs. This will make any advantages Clan tech has moot as the IS mechs can be 100% optimized for combat situations, while Clan mechs are stuck with a set speed and armor the allocation of which will be totally at the mercy of the Devs.

Honestly I say release em at Canon values, keep it 12v12 and see how it works, and then adjust things accordingly. Preemptively nerfing Clan Tech is a bad idea IMO as there are a lot of issues that open customization of IS mechs has brought to the game thus far.

In their current state, and the current state of the Meta most Clan mechs are going to be Glass Cannons. Yes if released at canon values they will have a lot of firepower at thier disposal, most of which will be unusable due to PGI knocking DHS down to 1.4 heat disappation and Clan energy weapons being ENTIRELY Extended Range. Add to that the un-optimized armor and they will be shut down half the match, with their armor being completely ripped apart by the Twin PPC, AC 20 meta.

Bear in mind, this is not table top. Most engagements seem to happen around 400-500m, and since it is more fluid it means that the range advantage can be bypassed almost completely. Add into the fact that most of the stories you hear about the Clans being unstoppable in the novels is because IS mechs were running mostly 3025 era tech early in the invasion and you will see that the gap was closed fairly quickly around 3052-3055. Right now in game almost every mech is running recovered SL era tech, and are using it in a completely optimized manner, making them far more efficient than their Canon relatives.

Edited by Outlaw, 20 December 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[J0anna]

Clan light mechs are significantly inferior to their Inner Sphere counterparts if they can't adjust armor/engines - they are very slow and lightly armored.

Many clan mechs aren't worth playing if you can't change armor values (the Summoner and Hellbringer (when it comes out) come to mind). PGI is dropping the ball here big time.

I remember a quote from last summer where PGI stated, "You'd have to be braindead to think we don't want to sell players Mad Cats." Well these aren't Mad Cats (really Timberwolves), perhaps we should amend the quote to be, "You'd have to be braindead to buy these imitation Mad Cats....."

[CyclonerM]

Moenrg, on 20 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

"You'd have to be braindead to buy these imitation Mad Cats....."

Excuse me, at the moment the meaning of your words escapes me. Why should this be an imitation of a Timberwolf?

[Gremlich Johns]

Moenrg, on 20 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

"You'd have to be braindead to buy these imitation Mad Cats....."

This is short-sighted. Without the specs, we cannot truly know what the Timberwolves will be like other than non-canon. That does not make them imitation. If PGI makes them the equivalent of a Golden Boy, then okay.....

[TibsVT]

We don't have Mad Cats, we have Timber Wolves.

Moenrg, on 20 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Clan light mechs are significantly inferior to their Inner Sphere counterparts if they can't adjust armor/engines - they are very slow and lightly armored.

The current selections do. Just wait until the others come out.

Edited by KelesK, 20 December 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Keyman1848]

PGI needs to balance the clan tech beyond the Omnimech. The 2nd line Clan Mechs will create another set of problems. Since they're not Omnimechs do they follow IS mech rules? If so, they'll be superior to Omnimechs because you'll only be limited to hardpoints while enjoying all the other benefits of clan tech. The IIC clan version of IS mechs will be preferred chassis to pilot. Who is going to want to pilot a Dire Wolf when they can do nearly anything they want with a Stone Rhino chassis?

Battletech canon has plenty of examples of mixed IS/Clan tech units - Wolf's Dragoons being the best example. Let's also not forget Archer Christifori's IS mech fielding multiple Clan ER lasers. Saying you can't mix clan and IS weapons is silly. There are plenty of novels describing it.

Changing the weights of the clan weapons means we're not going to get clan mechs that are canon. The Mad Cat loadout may end up being a Rakasha loadout instead. No one wants this.

I think PGI needs to look at what World of Tanks has done. All the tanks are put into tiers. More advanced tanks are in upper tiers. Only tanks with similar tiers are put together in a battle. This prevents WWI tanks from having to fight early 1950's era tanks. For MWO the clan mechs would be in the upper tiers so lower tech players will mainly see similar tech mechs and not get blasted off the map by the clan mech pilots.

[Corralis]

Moenrg, on 20 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Clan light mechs are significantly inferior to their Inner Sphere counterparts if they can't adjust armor/engines - they are very slow and lightly armored.

Many clan mechs aren't worth playing if you can't change armor values (the Summoner and Hellbringer (when it comes out) come to mind).  PGI is dropping the ball here big time.

I remember a quote from last summer where PGI stated, "You'd have to be braindead to think we don't want to sell players Mad Cats."  Well these aren't Mad Cats (really Timberwolves), perhaps we should amend the quote to be, "You'd have to be braindead to buy these imitation Mad Cats....."

Moenrg, on 20 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Clan light mechs are significantly inferior to their Inner Sphere counterparts if they can't adjust armor/engines - they are very slow and lightly armored.

I would be very surprised if at least one of the variants does not have the max allowable engine (or at least very close to it), all you need to do is swap your hardpoints around to make your ideal light mech. I don't really pilot light mechs' though so that doesn't really matter to me.

Edited by Corralis, 20 December 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Keyman1848]

Kali Rinpoche, on 20 December 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

IMO:
Leave tonnage as is.
Leave range or slightly reduce it, but increase heat.
CLRM behave exactly like IS LRMs.
Limit amount of SSRM launchers fired to 2 per 8 secs. Launch all missiles at once. (Say you are sporting 4 SSRM 6's, you can fire two, but all 4 launchers are greyed out for 8 secs.)
Leave charge up mechanic on clan gauss, remove charge time on IS gauss.
ER PPCs 13 instead of 15 damage.

Just be thankful that this is Clan Tech not the utterly ludicrous WoB era, Jihad silliness!

Could you imagine trying to game balance this?
Bionics, cyber-implants, celestial battlemechs, stealth armor, iC3 networks, Improved targeting computers, hyper-velocity ACs, variable speed lasers, snub-nosed PPCs, MML, SDS, rotary AC40 with sound seeking nuclear tipped shells. (j/k)

The Jihad was the worst thing to every happened to BT. Clan tech was a close second in terms of balance.

Actually, Dark Age was the worst thing that happened to BT.

[Corralis]

Keyman1848, on 20 December 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

PGI needs to balance the clan tech beyond the Omnimech. The 2nd line Clan Mechs will create another set of problems. Since they're not Omnimechs do they follow IS mech rules? If so, they'll be superior to Omnimechs because you'll only be limited to hardpoints while enjoying all the other benefits of clan tech. The IIC clan version of IS mechs will be preferred chassis to pilot. Who is going to want to pilot a Dire Wolf when they can do nearly anything they want with a Stone Rhino chassis?

Battletech canon has plenty of examples of mixed IS/Clan tech units - Wolf's Dragoons being the best example. Let's also not forget Archer Christifori's IS mech fielding multiple Clan ER lasers. Saying you can't mix clan and IS weapons is silly. There are plenty of novels describing it.

Changing the weights of the clan weapons means we're not going to get clan mechs that are canon. The Mad Cat loadout may end up being a Rakasha loadout instead. No one wants this.

I think PGI needs to look at what World of Tanks has done. All the tanks are put into tiers. More advanced tanks are in upper tiers. Only tanks with similar tiers are put together in a battle. This prevents WWI tanks from having to fight early 1950's era tanks. For MWO the clan mechs would be in the upper tiers so lower tech players will mainly see similar tech mechs and not get blasted off the map by the clan mech pilots.

If you matched game by tech level then all clan pilots would ever see is other clan pilots, who would want that? If your talking about allowing IS pilots to use Clan Tech then all you'll see is IS Mechs' using Clan Tech fighting each other due to the issues that we have discussed regarding the customization of Clan Mechs'.

[Deathz Jester]

Ed Steele, on 20 December 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

It is "naive" to not be able to comprehend what I said. The Inner Sphere mechs, not being able to use the 2 crit slot / 2.0 dissipation clan heatsinks along with the clan weaponry, would effectively have a heat penalty.



Yes

I comprehended what you said, you're assuming they would adhere to table-top rules word for word with non-removable heatsinks, if they did, they'd also have to adhere to the engines being non-removable. So i wouldn't question my reading comprehension, nice try

[TibsVT]

Iron Harlequin, on 21 December 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I comprehended what you said, you're assuming they would adhere to table-top rules word for word with non-removable heatsinks, if they did, they'd also have to adhere to the engines being non-removable. So i wouldn't question my reading comprehension, nice try

PGI have said that internals will likely remain static.

[CyclonerM]

Keyman1848, on 20 December 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

The 2nd line Clan Mechs will create another set of problems.

Do you seriously think they will include in the game 2nd line Clan BattleMechs? Even if they did, what would be the problem? They are BattleMechs like the Inner Sphere's models, just fitted with Clan tech..

[Keyman1848]

CyclonerM, on 21 December 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Do you seriously think they will include in the game 2nd line Clan BattleMechs? Even if they did, what would be the problem? They are BattleMechs like the Inner Sphere's models, just fitted with Clan tech..

Yes, I think we'll see second line clan mechs being offered. PGI likes to sell us mech packs and they currently have more artists than engineers. There are several 2nd Line Clan mechs than many poeple think are cool - the Stone Rhino being one of them.

If PGI is not going to allow us to change engines, armor values, and internal structures for omnimechs, they'll actually be less versatile than the IS mechs. The 2nd Line Clan mechs are not Omnimechs and many of them are just clan refits of IS mechs. Why pilot a Puma that you can't change the engine size, remove the flamer, or change the armor if there is a Jenner IIC that has all the clan tech but has the same customization options as the Jenners we currently have?

Edited by Keyman1848, 21 December 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Keyman1848, on 21 December 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

If PGI is not going to allow us to change engines, armor values, and internal structures for omnimechs, they'll actually be less versatile than the IS mechs. The 2nd Line Clan mechs are not Omnimechs and many of them are just clan refits of IS mechs. Why pilot a Puma that you can't change the engine size, remove the flamer, or change the armor if there is a Jenner IIC that has all the clan tech but has the same customization options as the Jenners we currently have?

This reinforces my point. Ironically, OmniMechs might become obsolete after the introduction of 2nd line 'Mechs.
However, there are still several OmniMechs which could be implemented.

[J0anna]

Corralis, on 20 December 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I would be very surprised if at least one of the variants does not have the max allowable engine (or at least very close to it), all you need to do is swap your hardpoints around to make your ideal light mech. I don't really pilot light mechs' though so that doesn't really matter to me.

Looking at my 3050 Technical Readout:

Adder (Puma) Variants A thru D (so 5 variants including the 'prime' variant) all have a 210XL engine so at max skills welcome to your 106.9 kph "jenner", you have Endo and Ferro but are only carrying 6 tons of armor i.e. 216/238 armor - not bad except all the armor shaved off is on your legs.....

Kit Fox (Uller) also has 5 variants, all have an XL180 engine (once again 106.7 kph w/max skills) so there's your 107 khp "spider", Again you have Endo and Ferro, and are carrying 4 tons of armor or 144 out of 210 points of armor, and while legs aren't too bad (15 out of 28 armor points) the majority is removed from your center and side torso's (24/52) and (23/32) - welcome to your mobile coffin.

I know it isn't final, but if we don't speak up, the omnimechs (certainly the light ones) will wind up significantly worse than their inner sphere counterparts.....

[Corralis]

Moenrg, on 21 December 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Looking at my 3050 Technical Readout:

Adder (Puma) Variants A thru D (so 5 variants including the 'prime' variant) all have a 210XL engine so at max skills welcome to your 106.9 kph "jenner", you have Endo and Ferro but are only carrying 6 tons of armor i.e. 216/238 armor - not bad except all the armor shaved off is on your legs.....

Kit Fox (Uller) also has 5 variants, all have an XL180 engine (once again 106.7 kph w/max skills) so there's your 107 khp "spider", Again you have Endo and Ferro, and are carrying 4 tons of armor or 144 out of 210 points of armor, and while legs aren't too bad (15 out of 28 armor points) the majority is removed from your center and side torso's (24/52) and (23/32) - welcome to your mobile coffin.

I know it isn't final, but if we don't speak up, the omnimechs (certainly the light ones) will wind up significantly worse than their inner sphere counterparts.....

I guess in tabletop, 106kph is fast enough. When translated to MW:O it's suddenly not even close. The more I think about it, we are gonna be in for one hell of a challenge trying to find good builds out of these omni-mechs.

[Kell Commander]

The whole idea to try and balance clan tech is to prevent the game from becoming "everyone get clan weapons." I am almost positive that no matter how clan tech is handled, the end result will be the same. All mechs will in the end have clan weapons. At this point, why even bother trying to balance them when the end result won't change?

[Strum Wealh]

Moenrg, on 21 December 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Looking at my 3050 Technical Readout:

Adder (Puma) Variants A thru D (so 5 variants including the 'prime' variant) all have a 210XL engine so at max skills welcome to your 106.9 kph "jenner", you have Endo and Ferro but are only carrying 6 tons of armor i.e. 216/238 armor - not bad except all the armor shaved off is on your legs.....

Kit Fox (Uller) also has 5 variants, all have an XL180 engine (once again 106.7 kph w/max skills) so there's your 107 khp "spider", Again you have Endo and Ferro, and are carrying 4 tons of armor or 144 out of 210 points of armor, and while legs aren't too bad (15 out of 28 armor points) the majority is removed from your center and side torso's (24/52) and (23/32) - welcome to your mobile coffin.

I know it isn't final, but if we don't speak up, the omnimechs (certainly the light ones) will wind up significantly worse than their inner sphere counterparts.....

Because that's the way OmniMechs worked in TT/canon - the engine (both rating & engine type), structure (both type & locations of crits), armor (both armor type & locations of crits, as well as distribution of armor points), and a few other things (including fixed mounts for items that would otherwise be mounted in OmniTech pods - like the Flamer on the Puma and the first five Jump Jets on the Thor) are fixed and immutable, leaving a fixed tonnage and distribution of criticals as "pod space".

• The Daishi has 50.50 tons of pod space available (50.5% of total mass) & carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
  
• The Gladiator has 26.50 tons of pod space available (27.9% of total mass) & carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
  
• The Masakari has 32.50 tons of pod space available (38.2% of total mass) & carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Man O' War has 21.50 tons of pod space available (26.9% of total mass) & carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
  
• The Mad Cat has 27.50 tons of pod space available (36.7% of total mass) & carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).
  
• The Thor has 22.50 tons of pod space available (32.1% of total mass) & carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum).
  
• The Loki has 28.50 tons of pod space available (43.9% of total mass) & carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum).
  
• The Vulture has 28.00 tons of pod space available (46.7% of total mass) & carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum).
  
• The Ryoken has 23.00 tons of pod space available (41.8% of total mass) & carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Black Hawk has 16.00 tons of pod space available (32.0% of total mass) & carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum).
  
• The Fenris has 9.50 tons of pod space available (21.1% of total mass) & carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum).
  
• The Dragonfly has 8.50 tons of pod space available (21.3% of total mass) & carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Puma has 16.00 tons of pod space available (45.7% of total mass) & carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum).
  
• The Uller has 16.00 tons of pod space available (53.3% of total mass) & carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum).
  
• The Koshi has 7.50 tons of pod space available (30.0% of total mass) & carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum).
  
• The Dasher has 6.50 tons of pod space available (32.5% of total mass) & carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum).

Moreover, it is the specific characteristics and locations of the locked-down base components (and the resulting overall characteristics of the base 'Mech) that provides the needed differentiation for when when there will be multiple OmniMechs of the same mass/weight - that is what provides the reason beyond "smallest profile/smallest or most-broken hitboxes" for choosing a Fenris over a Shadow Cat or vice versa (as both are 45-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing a Night Gyr over a Mad Cat or vise versa (as both are 75-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing a Nobori-nin over a Black Hawk or vice versa (as both are 50-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing an Uller over a Hankyu or vice versa (as both are 30-ton Clan OmniMechs).

Fenris, base OmniMech: 9.5 tons of pod space, ~30 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: x1 Endo-Steel, x1 open slot
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
LA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x8-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
RA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x7-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
LL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots
RL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots

Shadow Cat, base OmniMech: 17 tons of pod space, ~22 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: MASC (x2 criticals), no open slots
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x3 Ferro-Fibrous, x5 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x4 Ferro-Fibrous, x4 open slots
LA: x2 Endo-Steel, x7-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
RA: x2 Endo-Steel, x6-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
LL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots
RL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots

With that, there would be loadouts on one OmniMech of a given weight that generally could not be duplicated easily or exactly (if at all) on another OmniMech of the same weight.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 21 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[J0anna]

Kell Commander, on 21 December 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

The whole idea to try and balance clan tech is to prevent the game from becoming "everyone get clan weapons." I am almost positive that no matter how clan tech is handled, the end result will be the same. All mechs will in the end have clan weapons. At this point, why even bother trying to balance them when the end result won't change?

But we should ask ourselves why? Why balance clan tech at all? When the next generation of weapons come out are we going to 'balance' them against 3050 standards? So you want a heavy laser that has ghost heat if you use two? Or perhaps you want it's heat boosted to 20? How should we nerf an MRM 40? Or rotary autocannons?

Here's my balance suggestion.

1) Clan mechs cannot swap individual weapons, but can swap pods (i.e. arms/legs perhaps even side torso's)

2) Clan mechs may not change endo/ferro, they either have it or they don't

3) IS mechs can use clan weapons in their mechs, but not clan engines, ferro or Endo (only the IS version)

4) If a team has a Clan mech and the other team doesn't, it is limited to 10 members

5) Clan pilots don't live long, therefore clan mechs NEVER get double basic skills, also and IS mech that has completed Master level gets a 50% boost on Elite skills.

6) Clan mechs can change engines and/or armor (but not armor type) just like IS mechs.

While not finalized, lets start from here. I think we'd find the mechs would still have unique flavor, but not be significantly better than IS mechs. PGI is failing because they want to keep clan weapons on Clan Mechs - as soon as they let go of this notion, the game will remain balanced.