94 replies to this topic

[AEgg]

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

No you're missing the point.

You cannot make bold statements about the companies pricing model without any basis or insight into the company's fiscal model. You have no idea what the pricing mechanics are.

It may well be that the majority of players buy a couple of mech bays and C-Bill all their mechs and with your rampant slashing of revenue it drives up the cost of mech bays and kills that F2P population. Just as likely a scenario as yours.

I'm not suggesting they slash ANY revenue (Edit: I'm only saying that it's not a given whether clan packs providing early access will sell any more or any less of them. We can't know that.) Clan packs were not announced as early access, and neither was phoenix (as far as I know). With phoenix, pretty much everyone expected the mechs to be released for cbills at the same time. It still sold well. Not to mention the founders program.

Unless I'm missing something, PGI hasn't yet announced if cbill versions of clan mechs will be delayed or not. People are only assuming that they will delay them based on how pheonix went. That's why we're arguing over it now, before they make an announcement.

Of course we don't know if further alienating part of the playerbase is worth whatever percentage will buy exclusively because of early access. PGI has player and marketing data to help their decision, but from every players point of view, the obvious choice is to not alienate players. MWO has a small enough playerbase as it is. And F2P games live or die by the size of their playerbase.

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

I get your sentiment, and no one is saying that F2P players should be disregarded. But at the end of the day this is a registered corporation, not a registered charity. It's goal is to create a product that people will pay for to generate revenue / profits.

The premise behind F2P models is more like a % game. Hold 500% more customers for a year and the chances are good that you'll generate more revenue than from 100% paying up front. But that doesn't mean you cut off your future income from the 100% who you know are spending.

I don't think I would be alone that if PGI release Clan mechs any faster than the past practice, I will NOT be purchasing another pack. I'll just wait for a few months and buy it for C-Bills cause I can grind it out easily enough. If I can wait 6 months for Phoenix and Clans, I can wait 8 easily right.

Some people here are implying that Clan mechs are going to be P2W which is simply alarmist and a misrepresentation of what PGI have said is their goal. Assuming the deleiver their goal, Clan mechs will be balanced against IS mechs and there is NO REASON for gameplay to be affected.

Seeing as there is no change in game balance, there is no hinderance to the F2P player and they can continue to F2P with all their IS mechs current acquired at zero cost.

Hence, there is no reason for PGI to risk annoying their paying customer base.

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in the idea that most sales are people buying non-cosmetic items. Maybe that's true, maybe next to nobody buys that sort of thing. Of course neither of us can see PGIs sales figures, but the F2P games that do release those figures almost universally show that items that don't affect gameplay are where the money lies.

I hate to reiterate this over and over again, but unless clan mechs are identical to IS mechs (obviously impossible) then there's an advantage to having them. More options, even bad options, are power. All gameplay affecting items that are pay only fall into the same boat. You may think differently, but you'll have a hard time convincing an outsider that pay only mechs can't be better. Convincing them that neon green paint isn't better is a far easier sell.

If you're buying a clan pack exclusively for early access, you're buying it for the wrong reason. The whole point is that it circumvents the grind, comes with mechbays you'd have to buy anyway, and all the other extras. Early access isn't even confirmed yet.

Edited by AEgg, 03 March 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[Craig Steele]

AEgg, on 03 March 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting they slash ANY revenue (1) (Edit: I'm only saying that it's not a given whether clan packs providing early access will sell any more or any less of them. We can't know that.) Clan packs were not announced as early access, and neither was phoenix (as far as I know). With phoenix, pretty much everyone expected the mechs to be released for cbills (2) at the same time. It still sold well. Not to mention the founders program.

Unless I'm missing something, PGI hasn't yet announced if cbill versions of clan mechs will be delayed or not. People are only assuming that they will delay them based on how pheonix went. That's why we're arguing over it now, before they make an announcement.

Of course we don't know if further alienating part of the playerbase is worth whatever percentage will buy exclusively because of early access. PGI has player and marketing data to help their decision, but from every players point of view, the obvious choice is to not alienate players. MWO has a small enough playerbase as it is (3). And F2P games live or die by the size of their playerbase.



You seem to have an awful lot of faith in the idea that most sales are people buying non-cosmetic items. Maybe that's true, maybe next to nobody buys that sort of thing. Of course neither of us can see PGIs sales figures, but the F2P games that do release those figures almost universally show that items that don't affect gameplay are where the money lies.

I hate to reiterate this over and over again, but unless clan mechs are identical to IS mechs (obviously impossible) then there's an advantage to having them (4). More options, even bad options, are power. All gameplay affecting items that are pay only fall into the same boat. You may think differently, but you'll have a hard time convincing an outsider that pay only mechs can't be better. Convincing them that neon green paint isn't better is a far easier sell.

If you're buying a clan pack exclusively for early access, you're buying it for the wrong reason (5). The whole point is that it circumvents the grind, comes with mechbays you'd have to buy anyway, and all the other extras. Early access isn't even confirmed yet.

(1) My point is that by default you are arguing exactly that. Reason is that if everyone can get their mech of choice in 7 / 8 months, there is little reason to buy a pack 6 months earlier. If people will wait 6 months for paid content, they will wait 8 months for free content. Your argument is risking future revenue.

(2) PGI were quite open in their sales model on the Phoenix Hawk package when it was released. It contained the C-Bill release dates. Everyone who bought did so knowing that they were receiving early access to exclusive content.

(3) Has PGI published their active players? Can you link me please.

(4) Why? PGI have specifically said their goal is that they will be balanced. Why do you continue to insist that Clan mechs will be advantageous. The reality is that they will have advantages and disadvantages just like every other mech in the game (SHD vs GRF comparison?). What do you know that no one else does? Maybe if you can show me why Clans mechs will be P2W I can understand your stance, but all I see is another range of mechs with positives and negatives that I as a pilot need to unlock the best out of.

(5) Says who? I'll spend my money on whatever value proposition I believe in thank you and while you may discount some aspects that doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you.

[AEgg]

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

(1) My point is that by default you are arguing exactly that. Reason is that if everyone can get their mech of choice in 7 / 8 months, there is little reason to buy a pack 6 months earlier. If people will wait 6 months for paid content, they will wait 8 months for free content. Your argument is risking future revenue.

(2) PGI were quite open in their sales model on the Phoenix Hawk package when it was released. It contained the C-Bill release dates. Everyone who bought did so knowing that they were receiving early access to exclusive content.

(3) Has PGI published their active players? Can you link me please.

(4) Why? PGI have specifically said their goal is that they will be balanced. Why do you continue to insist that Clan mechs will be advantageous. The reality is that they will have advantages and disadvantages just like every other mech in the game (SHD vs GRF comparison?). What do you know that no one else does? Maybe if you can show me why Clans mechs will be P2W I can understand your stance, but all I see is another range of mechs with positives and negatives that I as a pilot need to unlock the best out of.

(5) Says who? I'll spend my money on whatever value proposition I believe in thank you and while you may discount some aspects that doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you.

1. It's not a given that delaying content will increase or decrease profits. You're arguing that it's a given that doing so will increase profits, this is an unknown. Making more content pay only does not equal making more money, because the total number of players varies with how appealing the game is, which decreases with more pay only content.

Neither of us knows whether more pay only content will increase or decrease PGIs profits, so why argue that point at all? What is a given is that more pay only content drives players away from the game.

2. Fair enough, I didn't know that. But everyone who bought founders knew they were't getting early access to anything, and it also sold quite well.

3.Do you really think MWO has a large playerbase? Active players never topped 5k when they still had the ingame player count, and that was when the game was being actively marketed. MWO is a niche game, it can't ever expect to compare with something like DotA 2.

4. They can be WORSE, and it's exactly the same issue. I've said this a million times and some people just can't follow it. Having options other people don't is an advantage, even if those options are bad. You can't have balance if both sides don't have the same options.

5. If they had announced the clan packs as early access, sure, you can buy them for that. But they haven't done so yet, so you're buying one on blind faith that PGI took your side in this argument. Counting your eggs before they hatch, so to speak. As of right now, the clan packs are selling you mechs, mechbays, emblems, champion versions, etc.

[Craig Steele]

AEgg, on 04 March 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

1. It's not a given that delaying content will increase or decrease profits. You're arguing that it's a given that doing so will increase profits, this is an unknown. Making more content pay only does not equal making more money, because the total number of players varies with how appealing the game is, which decreases with more pay only content.

Neither of us knows whether more pay only content will increase or decrease PGIs profits, so why argue that point at all? What is a given is that more pay only content drives players away from the game.

2. Fair enough, I didn't know that. But everyone who bought founders knew they were't getting early access to anything, and it also sold quite well.

3.Do you really think MWO has a large playerbase? Active players never topped 5k when they still had the ingame player count, and that was when the game was being actively marketed. MWO is a niche game, it can't ever expect to compare with something like DotA 2.

4. They can be WORSE, and it's exactly the same issue. I've said this a million times and some people just can't follow it. Having options other people don't is an advantage, even if those options are bad. You can't have balance if both sides don't have the same options.

5. If they had announced the clan packs as early access, sure, you can buy them for that. But they haven't done so yet, so you're buying one on blind faith that PGI took your side in this argument. Counting your eggs before they hatch, so to speak. As of right now, the clan packs are selling you mechs, mechbays, emblems, champion versions, etc.

(1) No, I'm arguing that changing their existing proven sales strategy (proven in the sense that it worked last time) is not good business practice.I am arguing that what worked for them before does not need tinkering and to do so risks alienating the existing proven revenue streams. You seem to be arguing that it will improve revenue and your arguments to support your theory seem lacking to me. On balance, I prefer that PGI do not risk future revenue by adopting your preferred strategy.

(3) Do you know it doesn't? This question is redundant as the arguments for and against are the same each side. That's my point btw, there is simply no basis for your claims (or mine) as there are no numbers.

(4) Options does not equate to advantages. Again examine the difference between a SHD and GRF. Both have options, there will be supporters for both of them. But ultimately they are balanced in the game sense. PGI have consistently said their goal is to have Clan mechs balanced and if they acheive this goal, there is no in game advantage. It's not going to be P2W, it's going to be F2P, thats the goal.

(5) It's not blind faith, it's the established sales practice. I have no reason to believe they will change their sales strategy and if they did I am expressing that it would be a factor in any future purchase I made. Early access to me is implied by past sales and the communications I have seen regarding one Clan mech released per month post June.

[AEgg]

Craig Steele, on 04 March 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

(1) No, I'm arguing that changing their existing proven sales strategy (proven in the sense that it worked last time) is not good business practice.I am arguing that what worked for them before does not need tinkering and to do so risks alienating the existing proven revenue streams. You seem to be arguing that it will improve revenue and your arguments to support your theory seem lacking to me. On balance, I prefer that PGI do not risk future revenue by adopting your preferred strategy.

(3) Do you know it doesn't? This question is redundant as the arguments for and against are the same each side. That's my point btw, there is simply no basis for your claims (or mine) as there are no numbers.

(4) Options does not equate to advantages. Again examine the difference between a SHD and GRF. Both have options, there will be supporters for both of them. But ultimately they are balanced in the game sense. PGI have consistently said their goal is to have Clan mechs balanced and if they acheive this goal, there is no in game advantage. It's not going to be P2W, it's going to be F2P, thats the goal.

(5) It's not blind faith, it's the established sales practice. I have no reason to believe they will change their sales strategy and if they did I am expressing that it would be a factor in any future purchase I made. Early access to me is implied by past sales and the communications I have seen regarding one Clan mech released per month post June.

They've already changed their established practice several times, though changing away from the most recent practice is a fair point I suppose. Founders, everything was available for cbills and MC at the same time. Mechs were released in an effectively random pattern at that time. The YLW was the first gameplay affecting content that was pay only. Then they introduced consumables, the first item with infinite cbill cost over time. They even changed the clan packs by adding the ability to select your mech (which was part of founders but not available for phoenix).

I'm not arguing it will improve revenue to not delay clan mechs, I'm arguing that it's bad for the game overall to do it, regardless of how it affects revenue. It may increase or decrease revenue, but either way it will reduce active players, which is bad.

3. Common knowledge is that MWO is not a large game. You can argue that we haven't had any numbers since about a year ago when the counter was removed, but you'll find a hard time convincing anyone that MWO has anywhere near the number of players as LoL. It's not really an important point either way, though.

4. Options are advantages. You may disagree, but that's how it is. More options may not always be an advantage, but there's always a corner case where that option is an advantage, regardless of how many cases where it's the same or worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say you'll actually do any better with clan mechs. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to balance something in the abstract when one side has more options than the other.

Charging for game content is artificially breaking perfect balance in the hopes of turning a profit. That ideal is the essence of why people apply the term "Pay to Win". Sometimes balance is destroyed completely, sometimes it's nearly unaffected, but the principle is the same.

Blind faith in the established practice is still faith, though a bit less blind I suppose. This is kind of a moot point though as even if you were wrong in the abstract (I'm not trying to say that) people make bad decisions despite the obvious all the time.

[Craig Steele]

AEgg, on 04 March 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

They've already changed their established practice several times, though changing away from the most recent practice is a fair point I suppose. Founders, everything was available for cbills and MC at the same time. Mechs were released in an effectively random pattern at that time. The YLW was the first gameplay affecting content that was pay only. Then they introduced consumables, the first item with infinite cbill cost over time. They even changed the clan packs by adding the ability to select your mech (which was part of founders but not available for phoenix).

I'm not arguing it will improve revenue to not delay clan mechs, I'm arguing that it's bad for the game overall to do it, regardless of how it affects revenue. It may increase or decrease revenue, but either way it will reduce active players, which is bad.

3. Common knowledge is that MWO is not a large game. You can argue that we haven't had any numbers since about a year ago when the counter was removed, but you'll find a hard time convincing anyone that MWO has anywhere near the number of players as LoL. It's not really an important point either way, though.

4. Options are advantages. You may disagree, but that's how it is. More options may not always be an advantage, but there's always a corner case where that option is an advantage, regardless of how many cases where it's the same or worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say you'll actually do any better with clan mechs. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to balance something in the abstract when one side has more options than the other.

Charging for game content is artificially breaking perfect balance in the hopes of turning a profit. That ideal is the essence of why people apply the term "Pay to Win". Sometimes balance is destroyed completely, sometimes it's nearly unaffected, but the principle is the same.

Blind faith in the established practice is still faith, though a bit less blind I suppose. This is kind of a moot point though as even if you were wrong in the abstract (I'm not trying to say that) people make bad decisions despite the obvious all the time.

OK,

So to close at my end.

1) I believe that whether its via 10 v 12 or nerfing Clan tech or some other mechainc, Clan mechs will be balanced with IS technology mechs. The game will not be P2W, it will remain F2P. PGI have said over and over this is their goal and you have offered me nothing in your posts that convinces me that PGI will adopt a P2W model.

2) I believe that given it is F2P, all players whether paying customer or non paying will be equally competitive on the field. Mechs will largely be a reflection of player preference (ie, they choose what they want to play)

3) I believe that given 1 & 2, that there is no material reason for PGI to deviate from there established sales strategy of releasing one mech per month from package sales and that there is a real risk to future revenue if they did so. Personally, they will loose my revenue which may or may not be material to them. It's not that I will quit the game, I will just wait another month or so and get for free what I would normally pay for.

4) I believe that if people want to play the mech of their choice, they can either wait for it to be made available by PGI for C-Bills or they can pay for it when it is offered for sale.

Your argument seems to be that Clan mechs will have some inherent advantage and hence that if they are not released to F2P players early the game population will move away. This argument I find alarmist as it contradicts what PGI have said is their goal.

Until PGI release full details of Clan mechs you have no basis for stating that Clan mechs will be P2W and thus, no basis for a change in the sales model currently employed.

[AEgg]

You're taking my arguments to the extremes.

Clan mechs will be functionally balanced with IS mechs. They will not be better (unless PGI screws something up).

That doesn't mean they aren't pay to win. The YLW is pay to win and it's awful. Once you cross the line of impeding balance for the sake of money, the game is on the pay to win model. And there's no argument that removing options is not impeding balance, however slightly.

I agree with point 2.

The game will be balanced in practice, but the business model is still pay to win. As it already is.

This is taking the worst of both worlds. They have a pay to win business model, driving away potential players. But they don't sell any serious advantages, reducing the profit possible from a model like what world of tanks uses that outright sells power. But that's PGIs problem, not ours.

I'm not saying the entire population will move away. It's a game of inches. You restrict X more content to pay only, you drive away Y% of potential players, and make Z% more money from the players that are left (which may or may not account for what you lost from Y). I don't think there's anything debatable about this.

Since we're players and not concerned with PGIs finances, only variable Y really matters in the long run. (So long as Z stays above the break even point, and I don't think anyone believes that delaying or not delaying clan packs will tank the game).

[TB Freelancer]

Craig Steele, on 23 February 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

To say "I can't play a F2P game cause I don't have a few hundred dollars for Clan mechs" is just silly. You can. No one is getting screwed over, they're not changing the rules (they're actually ramping it up with 2 mechs a month)

Be careful....you run the risk of alienating a guy who wants to contribute nothing to this game but petulance because he's not getting free access to material ahead of the release schedule.

[AEgg]

TB Freelancer, on 04 March 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Be careful....you run the risk of alienating a guy who wants to contribute nothing to this game but petulance because he's not getting free access to material ahead of the release schedule.

It's not ahead of the release schedule if it's already in the game (i.e. released).

Lets put it this way. You see a new game based on an IP you've never heard of. The main page advertises that it will cost you $30-$500 to play as one of the factions. How many players do you think that would draw in?

[Craig Steele]

AEgg, on 04 March 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

It's not ahead of the release schedule if it's already in the game (i.e. released).

Lets put it this way. You see a new game based on an IP you've never heard of. The main page advertises that it will cost you $30-$500 to play as one of the factions. How many players do you think that would draw in?

This is just confusing the issue.

The ad says you can pay $30 - $500 to play with those mechs.

The game will still allow you to Play for Free. Heck in all likelihood you can even play an IS mech in Clan colours so you can still play for your 'faction' until you grind enough and / or the Clan mech of your choice is released for C-Bills.

The ad DOES NOT say you must pay $x to play.

[Savage Wolf]

I thought I should maybe add this here, but in the latest NGNG podcast it was mentioned that they would release the initial 8 clan mechs two at a time over 4 months.

[Craig Steele]

Savage Wolf, on 25 March 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

I thought I should maybe add this here, but in the latest NGNG podcast it was mentioned that they would release the initial 8 clan mechs two at a time over 4 months.

Ergo, no need to buy the Clan pack.

I'll do the numbers but I think 24 mech bays is way cheaper and just grind them out 2 at a time.

Well played PGI, thanks.

EDIT, how annoyed / disenchanted would those who bought the Kitfox / Nova pack be? (The first 2 mechs on the timeline?)

Edited by Craig Steele, 26 March 2014 - 12:59 AM.

[Jin Ma]

Craig Steele, on 26 March 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Ergo, no need to buy the Clan pack.

I'll do the numbers but I think 24 mech bays is way cheaper and just grind them out 2 at a time.

Well played PGI, thanks.

EDIT, how annoyed / disenchanted would those who bought the Kitfox / Nova pack be? (The first 2 mechs on the timeline?)

clan mechs cost 2x as much CBIlls as IS mechs. and this pack sells them at around the same price as founders mechs. Basically its going to take a lot more time to grind these mechs out with CBills than with real money. More so than ever.

I mean the uller costs about the same as a catapult for pete's sake

Edited by Jin Ma, 26 March 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Onmyoudo]

Is that guaranteed though? Maybe in lore but pretty sure they'll fudge the prices a little for the game. They may still be more expensive, but not necessarily to that extent. On the other hand, if you reckon 300 bucks is a fair trade for the 400 hour time investment or whatever, you'll probably be okay with not grinding them out 2 at a time.

[Jin Ma]

Onmyoudo, on 26 March 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Is that guaranteed though? Maybe in lore but pretty sure they'll fudge the prices a little for the game. They may still be more expensive, but not necessarily to that extent. On the other hand, if you reckon 300 bucks is a fair trade for the 400 hour time investment or whatever, you'll probably be okay with not grinding them out 2 at a time.

I sure hope they do lower the prices for clan mechs. i mean at those prices the game would be grindy to a point that paying players have a significant advantage. It also means that an assault clan mech would cost upwards of 100 dollars to purchase with MC based on their linear CBill to MC price exchange.


I mean lore is one thing, but that is a helluva fast way to throw out the current price model and economy out the window

Edited by Jin Ma, 26 March 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Khavi Vetali]

All of the IS mechs are priced according to lore, no reason to think the clan ones won't be.

[Jin Ma]

Khavi Vetali, on 26 March 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

All of the IS mechs are priced according to lore, no reason to think the clan ones won't be.

Not exactly, IS mechs are price adjusted based on a base chassis value and then the equipment value. Which explains why there is about a 250,000 price difference between stated DRG-N1 prices and the ones in game. Though they do try to get the prices close to lore values within these rules.

So assuming they use the same formula, to have the clan mechs priced according to lore. they could either increase the price on all clan equipment. or increase the base chassis price. or a combination of both.

Well, at least we won't have to worry about buying clan engines. Clan engines going for about 12,000,000 is not a game i would want to play

Edited by Jin Ma, 26 March 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Sephlock]

Reitrix, on 23 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

All i read here was people not wanting to pay for early access, but want everything NOW.

If you wanted it badly enough, You'd have worked out how to save up enough to buy it. I'm buying me a Gold MadCat, Funds are being put away to do exactly that, Because thats what i want. If you want it badly enough, You can either work out a savings plan or wait a few months.

I just imagine little Timmy having to miss out on college or having a cavity treated because of your Gold MadCat... maybe you can name it "Timmy" in his honor ?

[Uncle Totty]

Khavi Vetali, on 26 March 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

All of the IS mechs are priced according to lore, no reason to think the clan ones won't be.

Because Clan Mechs will not as powerful as they are in the lore?

Reitrix, on 23 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

All i read here was people not wanting to pay for early access, but want everything NOW.

If you wanted it badly enough, You'd have worked out how to save up enough to buy it. I'm buying me a Gold MadCat, Funds are being put away to do exactly that, Because thats what i want. If you want it badly enough, You can either work out a savings plan or wait a few months.

How can I call it "early access" when it is already six months late?

[LauLiao]

Jin Ma, on 26 March 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

clan mechs cost 2x as much CBIlls as IS mechs. and this pack sells them at around the same price as founders mechs. Basically its going to take a lot more time to grind these mechs out with CBills than with real money. More so than ever.

The 150 million C-bills I have in the bank says I won't be grinding anything.