26 replies to this topic

[Varent]

First off ... I will say abit about where my opinion is coming from....

Ive been playing this game since closed beta. Ive played every mech and most chasis at least once, used every weapon in every configuration multiple times. Seen high elo and low elo and ran with a few guilds before creating my own. So I feel I am coming from a position of some experience.

Frankly I feel alot of the weapons are very well balanced right now between ranges, heat values, alpha capability and overall damage potential as well as dps. I like where the game is headed so far from a tactical and thinking mans shooter standpoint. Although I see alot of general rage and complaints about weapons I have seen very little true constructive reasons to change them and for the most part to me it looks like people complaining because they dont want to think outside of the box.

For this I will first off say, thank you pgi for paying attention to this....

HOWEVER....

There are a few issues that I feel need to be addressed or at least considered.

SRM..... for one I have used this weapon extensively and it very obviously has hit registration problems. That said I still use this weapon all the time and even with at least 1/3 of my missles not hitting I have games of 500+ on a regular basis. I am mildly concerned that if you do fix the hit registration this weapon might be a little overpowered. Just based off grouping of srm with artemis, alpha potential, etc.... Definetly a double edged sword. With so many mechs coming out recently that use these however I do really feel this needs to be looked into. If nothing else fix hit registration, Please. Then perhaps look at the balancing after.

Secondly...

Ghost heat, honestly I feel has helped this game by preventing super high alphas. I dont think anyone wants to come around a corner, get shot twice or so by one mech and die. Its fun to circle another pilot several times and duel with them. I feel this is a strong part of what this game is about.

BUT...

I do feel some weapons need to be altered abit in regards to ghost heat. Large lasers in particular. They are a major brawling item and many mechs that have been released recently with Phoenix are heavily reliant on laser weapons to be effective. I think the ghost heat on large lasers needs to be pushed back some so more of those can be used effectively in close. For clarification im asking this change for large lasers, nor er large.

Thank you.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

SRM hit reg, and tweaking Pulse Lasers should be where the devs focus first with weapon improvements.

Large Lasers are fine more or less, 3.53 extra heat firing three isn't too bad. Four LLs together is an extra 9.41 of heat.
So the devs could consider tweaking the penalties some if those are too high.

[Sandpit]

I don't agree with the opinion on LL ghost heat but this is one of the VERY few balance and ghost heat posts that isn't just a QQ rage I want an easy button rants.

[AlmightyAeng]

Unfortunately, Russ tweeted yesterday that an 'SRM hit reg fix' is on the backburner. It's "something that's good enough for now, we have to focus on Community Warfare" (paraphrased).

The balance fixes we've been offering up for quite a while are now going to be ignored, not simply because they CAN be ignored, but because now they're "good enough" and less important in the face of CW. :/

[Noesis]

Varent, "get out from under your rock" then is all I can say. There some good studies with graphs and tables in the balance forum that suggest the dominance of the ballistic weapon group.

And experience with the game should indicate how the game is dominated by sniper meta when ideally differing play styles should be encouraged for more play diversity and player preferences.

[DONTOR]

I dont think you should be worrying about high alpha SRMs. They arent pinpoint, 270M max range, and when you get up into the high alpha range you will have used alot of slots for the weapons, ammo, and or Artemis.

[Varent]

Ghost Badger, on 19 December 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Unfortunately, Russ tweeted yesterday that an 'SRM hit reg fix' is on the backburner. It's "something that's good enough for now, we have to focus on Community Warfare" (paraphrased).

The balance fixes we've been offering up for quite a while are now going to be ignored, not simply because they CAN be ignored, but because now they're "good enough" and less important in the face of CW. :/

while sad, I have to approve the community warfare being paramount.

[FupDup]

DONTOR, on 19 December 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

I dont think you should be worrying about high alpha SRMs. They arent pinpoint, 270M max range, and when you get up into the high alpha range you will have used alot of slots for the weapons, ammo, and or Artemis.

B-b-b-b-but Splatcats that were only a problem when SRMs had a huge splash radius and long-range weapons weren't registering hits correctly!

[Noesis]

Ghost Badger, on 19 December 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Unfortunately, Russ tweeted yesterday that an 'SRM hit reg fix' is on the backburner.

Link?

[Varent]

Noesis, on 19 December 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Varent, "get out from under your rock" then is all I can say. There some good studies with graphs and tables in the balance forum that suggest the dominance of the ballistic weapon group.

And experience with the game should indicate how the game is dominated by sniper meta when ideally differing play styles should be encouraged for more play diversity and player preferences.

This I believe was why I was mentioning Lasers needing a change with ghost heat, specifically large lasers.

That said graphs and dps do not translate into a shooter. If that is of course what you are reffering to.

However instead of insisting on vague context perhaps you would choose to post specific numbers yourself wich can then be discussed logically?

[wwiiogre]

About srm's, do realize that ams or groups of ams now shoot down srm and ssrm. So if you are around a bunch of enemy mechs that all have ams, your ssrm and srm barrages will do less damage because some are getting shot down. Combine this with the fact that some srm hits do not register and you get a serious srm damage nerf.

Great post, as for ghost heat, I believe ERLL, LL and LPulse should not be considered the same thing for ghost heat. In other words if you had variations of the three, because of range difference and damage and heat differences these should not be considered the same weapon for adding up ghost heat. Would allow people to build mechs with three weapon types for three various ranges and yes at close range all three could be fired more effectively, but at long and middle ranges only 1 or 2 would be effective. Its a compromise that would allow the use of multiple weapons which is always a plus.

Chris

[AlmightyAeng]

Noesis, on 19 December 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Link?

https://twitter.com/...818308174319617

The conversation has actually grown since then. And forgive me, he didn't tweet it yesterday, he tweeted it on the 16th. On the 17th he redirected the person who asked about SRM and HSR to ask Paul instead.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 19 December 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I don't agree with the opinion on LL ghost heat but this is one of the VERY few balance and ghost heat posts that isn't just a QQ rage I want an easy button rants.

Why do you feel the LL should not get a break and be 3 units before GH kicks in. The Range to Heat increments between the LL and ML are almost identical at +/- 60%. Why isolate the LL?

The ML, the true Brawler energy unit, gets to have a 35pt Alpha to incur 3.2 extra GH. In kind, the LL's gets 18pt. and then 10.5 GH. (ouchers)

Not sure why the disparity really. Would a 27 LL Alpha versus the current ML 30 Alpha be so terrible?

The LL still requires lots of DHS to maintain and you have to Hold the sucker on target.

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 December 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 19 December 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Varent, "get out from under your rock" then is all I can say. There some good studies with graphs and tables in the balance forum that suggest the dominance of the ballistic weapon group.

And experience with the game should indicate how the game is dominated by sniper meta when ideally differing play styles should be encouraged for more play diversity and player preferences.

and it begins.....

[Voivode]

I have to agree weapon balance is the best it's been so far. The meta is definitely ballistic weapons but this meta is far less overpowering and untenable than the PPC meta. I like the direction of the game. I do wish it was moving along faster, but it is encouraging.

[Joseph Mallan]

Voivode, on 19 December 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

I have to agree weapon balance is the best it's been so far. The meta is definitely ballistic weapons but this meta is far less overpowering and untenable than the PPC meta. I like the direction of the game. I do wish it was moving along faster, but it is encouraging.

So if the ACs are to powerful by comparison, improve other weapons. before we turn this:


Into this

[Noesis]

Varent, on 19 December 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

This I believe was why I was mentioning Lasers needing a change with ghost heat, specifically large lasers.

That said graphs and dps do not translate into a shooter. If that is of course what you are reffering to.

However instead of insisting on vague context perhaps you would choose to post specific numbers yourself wich can then be discussed logically?

http://mwomercs.com/...ettering-beams/

http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/

http://mwomercs.com/...-of-ac-weapons/

Should help to demonstrate what we already know with the "observed and applied" dominance in the game of longer range ballistic weapons and where complications exist.

And even if the PGI have translated their interpretation for the weaponry to be one way or the other, as I won't hold the BT rulings as anything more than a precedent as opposed to thinking of having to adhere to them or lore, the information still shows the advantages certain weapon groups have that exist in the game due to how they have been designed for MWO.

I'm simply assuming SRM's, LRMs as fubarred or not as effective as other weapon areas and don't provide confidence for other game play styles as a result.

And if anything the short game is the area that needs most improvement due to this disparity. Otherwise we will continue to play Mech Sniper Online ad infinitum. And PGI are shooting themselves in the foot here since certain Mech platforms are not a sensible choice due to bad mechanics that need fixing or balance applied to other game play areas.

Tonnage limitations may help here of course, but a mix of lights and snipers is still a possible Meta choice even with weight limitations.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 December 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

So if the ACs are to powerful by comparison, improve other weapons. before we turn this:


Into this

I like those little toothpicks though

[Noesis]

Ghost Badger, on 19 December 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

https://twitter.com/...818308174319617

The conversation has actually grown since then. And forgive me, he didn't tweet it yesterday, he tweeted it on the 16th. On the 17th he redirected the person who asked about SRM and HSR to ask Paul instead.

ty and [redacted]

[Varent]

Noesis, on 19 December 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ettering-beams/

http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/

http://mwomercs.com/...-of-ac-weapons/

Should help to demonstrate what we already know with the "observed and applied" dominance in the game of longer range ballistic weapons and where complications exist.

And even if the PGI have translated their interpretation for the weaponry to be one way or the other, as I won't hold the BT rulings as anything more than a precedent as opposed to thinking of having to adhere to them or lore, the information still shows the advantages certain weapon groups have that exist in the game due to how they have been designed for MWO.

I'm simply assuming SRM's, LRMs as fubarred or not as effective as other weapon areas and don't provide confidence for other game play styles as a result.

And if anything the short game is the area that needs most improvement due to this disparity. Otherwise we will continue to play Mech Sniper Online ad infinitum. And PGI are shooting themselves in the foot here since certain Mech platforms are not a sensible choice due to bad mechanics that need fixing or balance applied to other game play areas.

Tonnage limitations may help here of course, but a mix of lights and snipers is still a possible Meta choice even with weight limitations.

I actually was debating something like this earlier on another post but id rather just discuss it here then linking.


for one, your looking at all the numbers based on a DPS standpoint, which is a horrible thing to do in general with any shooter since in a game of hide and seek, torso twisting and short but potent engagements, this really means very little. DPS is a system that was originally formulated to calculated the amount of damage needed to take down a raid boss. It does not take into account damage being taken nor does it take into account the fact that you cant be healed. DPS also doesnt take into account the strength of alpha striking. In a game of multiple ranges and engagement circumstances DPS tends to mean little in the long run in fact.

Example.

ac2 - Super high DPS
UAC5 - High DPS
ERPPC - Super low DPS
Gause Rifle - Super Low DPS

Take these weapons at maximum ranges with hill sides in the way, jump capability and the inability to stay on target and the numbers get incredibly skewed. Think about it like this.

A mech is exposed for 2 seconds ish while it makes a jump to throw a ppc and gause rifle slug down range.

In that period of time (2 seconds) it dealth 25 damage.

Another mech is firing at that same mech, but due to its exposure time can only fire upon it for 2 seconds... in that time it does maybe 14 damage total between an ac2 and a uac5 both firing on it.

Rinse and repeat these same numbers over the course of an engagment and true dps starts to come to its head....

However you cant calculate this using any type of machine since its based off varying situations occuring within a game...

Do you see where im getting here?

DPS is an inefficient system to try and base a shooter off of in general and particularly bad in mwo when you equate missles into that system. YOu can have no damage for the vast majority of the match and then catch one person out in the open and obliterate them in a period of seconds just because of positioning.

Now that said I will say that lasers overall out of all weapons systems tend to be the ones hurting currently because of ghost heat and the time it takes to hold a laster on target... but that said they are that way for important reasons....

1. lack of need for ammo.
2. 80% of mechs can mount them then are considered the (common) and usually back up weapon.
3. the are very versatile and fill a number of roles.

Now these factors dont have as much of an effect on the game now but when community warfare comes about the lack of need for ammo will probly rear its ugly head and make things more interesting.