33 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Spheroid, on 20 December 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

@Tesunie

Large lasers are better with that speed profile than a mixed armament. Something slower needs mixed and something faster should boat mediums. Quickdraws of all stripes are going be engaging and controlling medium range distance in many fights. The TAG is to help the team take down DDCs and to max his match score. Also my build doesn't require making any structural changes or engines alterations since cost may be a factor.

I can respect that, but I'd prefer more sinks instead of a TAG, as the build itself doesn't have any LRMs to benefit from it. Of course, this depends upon if you PUG (random groups) or join a team (even one other person, probably with LRMs that you help support with TAG). Using the TAG to cut through ECM is only so effective without LRMs (gains you target data really, and maybe a rare support to LRM allies, AKA TAG bonus).

Large lasers are best when you are at range, which shooting farther away isn't bad for any build. However, with the speeds that most Quickdraws can get, combined with jump, you are going to be able to close in if you desire. Med lasers are well for that, don't weigh much, and if they can be stacked can be very intimidating to down right deadly. Breaking it up also avoids Ghost Heat, as you gain ghost heat with more than two large lasers. This also breaks up your weapons into two distinct groups, one for long range engagements, and the other primarily for short range work. This can assist with keeping a mech cool, with only a little self restraint. If you are running hot, but can duck and hide a little, 4 med lasers do 20 damage for 16 heat. If you are hot and can't get into cover, you can cool more by cycling just the large lasers, which the pair does 18 damage for 14 heat (provided whole beam duration is on target of course). As long as you only fire one group or the other, you will eventually cool down. With a little more skill, you can keep the two groups shooting at around 1.5x their cool down in tandem, keeping you with a stream of damage and running the hot "I'm about to shut down" line. If you need to, shoot just one system (whichever is best for range, probably Large Lasers if they are on your arms) and you will cool off enough to be able to shoot the second before too long.

I do commend and like the idea of making a build that is cheap and can work on any variant. What I tend to do is save up for an XL engine (in this case) before moving on to other Variants, then I will just shift that single XL engine across all versions of the mech, until I can at least afford to buy one for all of them (if I'm going to keep them all). Upgrades such as FF and Endo are not necessary, especially when you start, but they are helpful and come recommended (same with DHS).

I do agree of course that suggesting a standard engine can be very helpful (the stock engine if possible), as it is cheapest and can be done right from purchase of the mech. I'm mostly not agreeing with the third large laser (especially with ghost heat and a new player) and the TAG system with no LRMs to accompany it. Standard armor, structure and stock engine are solid recommendations to a new player to start. Though, I do think it is also good to make builds for "right now" and an "advanced build to look forward to when you can afford the upgrades". (I hope I'm making sense here, and that you understand what I am trying to say and take no offense, as none is being directed nor meant.)

Sorry for the lengthy post. I think this just might be a difference of experience and personal playing style. I just think that avoiding Ghost Heat, especially for new players, is more recommended.

[Mahws]

Okay, so everyone replying to you seems to have forgotten that you're a new player and probably can't afford the several million c-bills for an XL engine.

So here's a decent STD300 build for you to try:
QKD-5K

The first jumpjet is well worth the one tonne for the extra maneuverability (after the first one you get less bang for your tonne). The AMS is nice to have, but as a relatively quick moving jump capable mech you shouldn't be out in the open under LRM fire too often. The three large lasers will incur ghost heat if fired together, but that's not really an issue as the amount of extra heat you get (~3 points) isn't worth worrying about.

3LL gives you more than twice the range of your current build, with almost the exact same amount of damage and less heat. Combined with the extra maneuvarability of the Jump Jet it should work out way better. Stick with your big Assualts and use your speed and burst damage to get into position to finish of their wounded targets. The longer cycle time of the LL isn't an issue, twist away from your enemy between shots to take hits on your arms and side torso, make the most of that standard engine.

If you can't afford the 600,000 for three LL right now I'd suggest buying them one by one and swapping out your MPL for them and ML.

Edited by Mahws, 20 December 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Tesunie]

Mahws, on 20 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Okay, so everyone replying to you seems to have forgotten that you're a new player and probably can't afford the several million c-bills for an XL engine.

So here's a decent STD300 build for you to try:
QKD-5K

(Lots of good advice)

What about something closer to this?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03a345e972b808f

Same standard equipment (Endo stays, removed FF for more crits needed, agree with your standard engine). I removed a large laser for 4 med lasers, which removed the ghost heat. What would your opinion be of this?

[Israel Finklestein]

Put the biggest XL engine you can in, and then you can do either:

4 Large Laser
3 PPC
2 PPC/4 Medium Laser

The 5k plays a lot like a faster Jester. One of the big issues Quickdraws have is that they're a mile tall, but this can actually be an advantage, your legs are enormous so pump a lot of armor into them, people will spread damage between those and your beefy arms all day. I suggest the 2PPC/4ML build to start with since it has the easiest heat management. Put the PPCs in your torso and use the arms as shields to protect your torsos and core, turn your body into damage instead of taking hits on your core, or jumpjet up to let shots hit your legs. Quickdraws are pretty solid mechs despite people classing them with Dragons and Awesomes,

I see a lot of people suggesting 2LL./4ML, while this is an OK build, you can also do it very comfortably on a Blackjack that weighs 15 tons less. With more lasers, no less. PPCs give you nice instant damage.

Edited by Israel Finklestein, 20 December 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Sell the quickdraw (or at least, hang onto it long enough to afford something better) Keep the hunchy. I was one of the earliest quickdraw pilots and mastered two of them but I always felt like I was having to try harder to get less ended up selling them all for mechbay space: The mech is just too big and overall a Shadowhawk is just plain better, Jagermechs and the new Thunderbolt are also solid choices.

( My original thread pertaining to the Quickdraws http://mwomercs.com/...kderps-for-you/ )

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 20 December 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Tesunie]

Xeno Phalcon, on 20 December 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Sell the quickdraw... (Shortened to save space)

I wouldn't be so hopeless about the Quickdraw. I think it depends upon the pilot and their own personal skills. Personally, my best mech stats seem to be with the Quickdraw, followed shortly behind by the Dragon, Thunderbolt, and my Hunchback 4SP (back on the rise). Most of my best mechs are LRM based mechs (don't confuse them for boats though). Of course, I have different skill sets from other people, like say you for example. So, I'd say, stick with it for a while and see if it works. If it doesn't, then sell. (Like I'm about to do with my Cent. I've never gotten it to work well for me, so I'm finally going to sell it and move on. Knowing me, I'll probably re buy it later because I suddenly get a feeling to play it...)

[zudukai]

try this one, try not to alpha, 3 groups remain at range for ppc, or use sparingly, stay fast.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ffb81b47c6bfb88

[ManDaisy]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...345a184381f2db1

Try this, it gets the job done. Learn to chain fire, its helps.

Hit and run is the tactic for quickdraws... fire until your hot then hide and cool down somewhere.

Edited by ManDaisy, 20 December 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[Mahws]

Tesunie, on 20 December 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

What about something closer to this?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03a345e972b808f

Same standard equipment (Endo stays, removed FF for more crits needed, agree with your standard engine). I removed a large laser for 4 med lasers, which removed the ghost heat. What would your opinion be of this?

Also a good build. I went with the three large lasers because with the huge size of a QD and a new player it seemed like a better combination (only one fire group, greater range means he can hang further back and afford to make more maneuvering mistakes). Yours is cheaper and offers better short range alpha, so it may be a better option for him.

As for the ghost heat, I really don't understand why everyone freaks out so much about it. Sure for PPC and AC/20 ghost heat is a killer, but with 3LL you're only getting a 15% increase in heat, it's not really an issue.

[Tesunie]

Mahws, on 20 December 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

As for the ghost heat, I really don't understand why everyone freaks out so much about it. Sure for PPC and AC/20 ghost heat is a killer, but with 3LL you're only getting a 15% increase in heat, it's not really an issue.

With new players, it can cause confusion with "But I run cool when I shoot two of them, why does a third seem to overheat me so quickly". I also think that 3 large lasers can leave you lacking when it comes to closer ranged engagements, especially if someone is more geared for it (a 6 med laser mech near your 3 large laser mech. That's 30 damage (24 heat) vs your 27 damage (21 heat without ghost heat, probably closer to 24.15 heat after (15% increase based upon your information), forbid if you did ER instead of normal lasers). They only have 6 tons in weapons, which can leave more room for cooling, and you have 15 tons in weapons and less heat sinks (with more heat when alpha, which is something many players do in this game, especially newer players).

Now, I'm not saying the range isn't worth it, but having a balance of the two weapons systems can give you a nice punch still up close, as well as a decent range with some cooling abilities. You also get better cooling from saved weight overall. A "best of both worlds" kinda thought process. (It might also be referred to as a more balanced build, instead of a highly focused and specialized build, which can be referred to as a boat more often than not).

There are pros and cons to each side, and neither way is "bad" or "incorrect". It will depend heavily upon playing style. I've just personally always preferred more balanced builds over more specialized. Gives me more flexibility on the battlefield, though sometimes makes me not as powerful compared to a specialized build when they are in their role. It's why I have LRM mechs with backup weapons. Some of my best mechs have a good mix of laser and missiles, like my Hunchback 4sp. It has 2 LRM15s, 4-5 tons ammo, and 4 med lasers. I can work at any range, with or without direct line of sight, and in ECM or out of ECM (though ECM still makes my job harder). Does everyone agree with my mechs loadout? Nope. To each there own. (Which is why I advise one experiments with a mech for a while and to try new and different things out.)


Edit for more information:
With 2 large and 4 medium, you get a total alpha damage of 38 (L18+M20) and a total heat (no ghost heat here) of 30(L14+M16), but you can group them into large and medium groups, meaning you can shoot with one and then follow with the second for cooling. (Don't forget that as you shoot you dissipate heat too, meaning that shooting in two bursts helps your cooling even more, compared to shooting in one big burst. Commonly not thought of concept when in a match.)

Edited by Tesunie, 20 December 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[Autobot9000]

I have to disagree with some of the above's advice. Never put ferro fibrous armor on an energy centric mech, you are wasting all crit spaces for very few tonnage savings as reward. You absolutely need every crit space possible for heat sinks.

If you are frustrated with your current Quickdraw, don't ahve the money to get a big XL righaway, I would recommend to you to play a cheap, but effective build like the one below to grind money for the XL or buying additional chassis:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a85b428dd9d2d1a

6 Medium lasers is the maxium to use before ghost heat kicks in. You can use them in two weapon groups, one for the arms, the other for torso mounts, this allows for good aiming and heat management. 20 DHS keep you reasonably cool, although pure energy builds are never cool in absolute terms. Enough JJs are also key as lined out above. Also as close to maximum armor as possible is a must for any mech.

Edited by Autobot9000, 21 December 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Mahws]

Tesunie, on 20 December 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

You also get better cooling from saved weight overall.

Your build has 16 double heatsinks. My build has 16 double heatsinks. If we're talking in general terms that's often true, but in this case you can't use the extra tonnage gained for more heatsinks, cancelling out the only real advantage of taking 2ML over a LL (other than slightly increased DPS, which I don't feel makes up for the range and heat myself).

Like I said before, both builds have their advantage (yours has better alpha strike at short range, mine has better range and less heat loading). You don't need to justify having a 'balanced build' to me, I run diverse weapons on most of my mechs, that doesn't mean that I'll advise everyone else to though if I think a 'boat' would work better for them.

[Tesunie]

Mahws, on 21 December 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Your build has 16 double heatsinks. My build has 16 double heatsinks. If we're talking in general terms that's often true, but in this case you can't use the extra tonnage gained for more heatsinks, cancelling out the only real advantage of taking 2ML over a LL (other than slightly increased DPS, which I don't feel makes up for the range and heat myself).

Like I said before, both builds have their advantage (yours has better alpha strike at short range, mine has better range and less heat loading). You don't need to justify having a 'balanced build' to me, I run diverse weapons on most of my mechs, that doesn't mean that I'll advise everyone else to though if I think a 'boat' would work better for them.

I can see that. As the expression goes, to each their own.

PS: My build does have 4 med lasers in place of the third large. It could be 2 med lasers and 2 additional heat sinks. Personal preference and variant dependent of course. It also avoids the ghost heat, which makes the 3 large lasers run as hot (actually a little hotter) if fired together (or just too closely timed in their shots). It's up to range, cooling, and punch. It's always a balance between those three in a debate like this, and it's all situation and preference. No one is better than the other in the right hands.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

4xLL XL325 Quicky

Try that, alpha will bring in 14 extra heat, BUT two and two will do well.

Keep distance and keep jumping.