69 replies to this topic

[NRP]

This thread was inspired by a game I had last night on HPG Manifold that had an unusually high number of forum regulars in it. We ended up having a great discussion about Clan tech as we shot the {Scrap} out of each other. I hope this thread continues that line of discussion.

So here it goes, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the Masakari pack anyway, but the recently announced a la carte option is intriguing. So my question is this: if you buy a la carte, which mechs would you choose and why?

I know almost nothing about the lore, so I really don't know which of these mechs are supposed to be good or not so good, and I would appreciate your insight.

Were I to buy a la carte, I would choose these mechs:

Direwolf (because it's a 100T assault and I love assault mechs, and it looks badass)

Warhawk (again, it's a badass looking assault mech)

Timberwolf (mostly because just about everyone says it's the shizzle, and I like heavy mechs too)

Stormcrow (actually, I don't know why LOL)

Please give me your thoughts, choices, and rationale. I don't mind if your rationale includes reasonable extrapolation as to how these mechs will actually work in game assuming PGI's most likely path for balancing, but please keep the bitching and ideological rants out. I would very much appreciate it.

[FireSlade]

NRP, on 21 December 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

This thread was inspired by a game I had last night on HPG Manifold that had an unusually high number of forum regulars in it. We ended up having a great discussion about Clan tech as we shot the {Scrap} out of each other. I hope this thread continues that line of discussion.

So here it goes, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the Masakari pack anyway, but the recently announced a la carte option is intriguing. So my question is this: if you buy a la carte, which mechs would you choose and why?

I know almost nothing about the lore, so I really don't know which of these mechs are supposed to be good or not so good, and I would appreciate your insight.

Were I to buy a la carte, I would choose these mechs:

Direwolf (because it's a 100T assault and I love assault mechs, and it looks badass)

Warhawk (again, it's a badass looking assault mech)

Timberwolf (mostly because just about everyone says it's the shizzle, and I like heavy mechs too)

Stormcrow (actually, I don't know why LOL)

Please give me your thoughts, choices, and rationale. I don't mind if your rationale includes reasonable extrapolation as to how these mechs will actually work in game assuming PGI's most likely path for balancing, but please keep the bitching and ideological rants out. I would very much appreciate it.

Well since I am planning on joining the Wolves I wanted to get the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf since they are both Wolf designs. My specialty lies with heavy mechs and the Timber Wolf is my favorite design so that will be at the top of the list but I love what the Dire Wolf can do. I might get the Warhawk too, since it is such a great design. I am going to wait a bit to buy them though since I am going to try to save up for the Masakari Package.

[Veranova]

I'm also interested in this.
History in MWO has shown that a mech is made/broken based on its size, hitboxes, and ability to defend its key hit-boxes (shield arms).
Secondary to that is weapon layout. Having the bulk of weapons on one side means you can have less armour elsewhere, and so more tonnage for weapons. Clan designs are more balanced it seems.

Looking at these designs it seems the arms are going to be incapable of defending side torso's in the larger mechs, although CT's might be quite well defended by chunky side torso's.
So fixed XL engines will be a problem right?
Then having the weapons spread across the mech evenly, is going to have tonnage implications since the armour will have to be high everywhere.

tl;dr
Basically I'm looking at these designs and am wondering whether any of them will actually be useful competitively?

Edited by Veranova, 21 December 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[FireSlade]

Veranova, on 21 December 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'm also interested in this.
History in MWO has shown that a mech is made/broken based on its size, hitboxes, and ability to defend its key hit-boxes (shield arms).
Secondary to that is weapon layout. Having the bulk of weapons on one side means you can have less armour elsewhere, and so more tonnage for weapons. Clan designs are more balanced it seems.

Looking at these designs it seems the arms are going to be incapable of defending side torso's in the larger mechs, although CT's might be quite well defended by chunky side torso's.
So fixed XL engines will be a problem right?
Then having the weapons spread across the mech evenly, is going to have tonnage implications since the armour will have to be high everywhere.

tl;dr
Basically I'm looking at these designs and am wondering whether any of them will actually be useful competitively?

XLs in clan mechs use only 2 slots in the side torsos and TT rules stated that you needed to take out 3 engine critical slots for a kill. That means that losing a side torso with a clan XL does not kill you and instead would act like you were legged. This is just speculation though and PGI may make it a death sentence to lose your STs.

Edited by FireSlade, 21 December 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Veranova]

That's quite a big differentiator then. I didn't realise it was based on 3 crits being destroyed.
PGI have done quite a good job of following lore on things like that I think, so I could see this staying in.

The rest of what I'm asking still stands I guess. But that's quite a big survivability factor out of the way for now.

[Pariah Devalis]

Best bang for your buck mechs from the pack? Really, I would suggest any of them except for the Kit Fox (as much as I love the design), Summoner, and Adder. That is, because right now, unless PGI decides to allow us to add/remove points of armor or shift armor facings on mechs, the Kit Fox suffers from a severe lack of armor AND low speed, the Summoner suffers from a lack of armor, and the Adder suffers from low speed (though it has wads of firepower).

Problems to expect with the other mechs are either heat related, extremely unoptimized armor placement, or a problem of too many weapon groups (I am looking at you, Dire Wolf!). Breaking down my expectations of the remaining 5 Clan mechs:

• Warhawk: Hot. Hot hot hot. Unless ERPPC get a pass on their heat generation between now and their release, this mech is going to need some modifications to work properly. It might be as simple as exchanging a pair of the ERPPC for ERLLas and four more DHS (space permitting), but right now it can fire three ripple fired salvos of two ERPPC before shutting down, or one alpha strike from zero heat before being on the edge of shutdown. 15 damage ERPPC does much to mitigate the heat issue, however, as you do get more bang for your buck. It will probably work with good aim out of the box to terrifying effect with its 900+ meter range 60 point broadsides, but expect it to be extremely punishing if HSR decides to screw you over even once. That said, it has excellent Alpha and Bravo configurations as well.
  
• Dire Wolf: Weapons out the yin yang. It would require five weapon groups to frontload damage properly without incurring the wrath of Ghost Heat, or four groups if you slave all the ERLLas to a chainfired single group. It may still be prudent to exchange those quad-MPLas for quad-ERMLas and additional heat sinks. Heat is going to be a problem, but, again, most Clan mechs will have issues to greater or lesser extent. I see this mech being an absolute terror on the field, however, being able to dish both sustained and frontloaded damage on demand. Decent Alpha and Bravo configurations exist.
  
• Timber Wolf: Heat is this mech's only potential drawback. Not too bad of one, if you stick to just the ERLLas or just the LRMs or just the ERMLas and MPlas, but if you start combining weapon systems the heat sinks will get overloaded fairly quickly as the 15 DHS it comes with will be just enough to handle the twin ERLLas at a run. It has some good Alpha and Bravo configurations.
  
• Stormcrow: Scary. The Prime is going to be extremely hot as it is under-sinked, but one look at the Bravo and your blood will run cold; 6 ERMLas at 7 damage per backed up by an Ultra AC20 on a 100 kph chassis. Dangerous, dangerous mech. Will be running hot, however.
  
• Nova: Did I say hot before? This mech is probably going to be around the same level of heat as the Warhawk. It may be prudent to exchange one ERMLas in each arm for an additional DHS each. Or maybe exchange a total of four ERMLas for a total of four additional DHS. Either way, with each ERMLas being nearly equal to an Inner Sphere standard Large Laser, this mech is going to be a surgeon. Jump jets and respectable speed will assist the mech greatly, as well. Bravo configuration, again, is the one to watch for, however, as it mixes energy and ballistic hardpoints throughout its chassis.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 December 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[Autobot9000]

If I would buy any clan mechs then certainly the Masakari pack, because I really want Timberwolf, Direwolf, Masakari, Stormcrow and Nova. The Thor is a nice addition - not particularly excited about the lights, but for the occasional match they would be interesting, considering the clan weaponry, such as LBX5 builds etc.

The problem is:
At this point I can not imagine spending any additional money on MWO. I bought MC for mech bays, colors, a Protector and a Misery and all in all that's already a little more than I would spend on the typical video game. MWO however is in an unfinished state to say the very least. The Masakari pack however is about three times (!) as much as I would pay for a super high quality, full content game, like starcraft 2 for example. I can't see the investment, seriously can't see it. The business model is total scap.

[Pariah Devalis]

Autobot9000, on 21 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

If I would buy any clan mechs then certainly the Masakari pack, because I really want Timberwolf, Direwolf, Masakari, Stormcrow and Nova. The Thor is a nice addition - not particularly excited about the lights, but for the occasional match they would be interesting, considering the clan weaponry, such as LBX5 builds etc.

The problem is:
At this point I can not imagine spending any additional money on MWO. I bought MC for mech bays, colors, a Protector and a Misery and all in all that's already a little more than I would spend on the typical video game. MWO however is in an unfinished state to say the very least. The Masakari pack however is about three times (!) as much as I would pay for a super high quality, full content game, like starcraft 2 for example. I can't see the investment, seriously can't see it. The business model is total scap.

Maybe you did not get the memo: You can buy them a la carte now. Still a bit expensive, but not $240 expensive.

[CyclonerM]

I would buy for sure a Timberwolf, a Stormcrow and a Kit Fox.
TW: does not need explanation. MW2
SC: One of best mediums ever. And it is cool.

KF: I know, probably underpowered, too lighlty armored (maybe Clan XLs might help its survavibility) and slow. But it is so cute..

Edited by CyclonerM, 21 December 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Autobot9000]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Maybe you did not get the memo: You can buy them a la carte now. Still a bit expensive, but not $240 expensive.

Sure, but a la carte I find them absurdly expensive, which you could already grasp from my post. 50 bucks is fine for a full content, super high quality, polished major video game title (see above). Since I am a loooong time BT/TT fan I would add something as a token of personal gratuity/<add random reason> on top of these 50 bucks. But read again: I already spent this amount without even getting a product that's close to what I would expect. How on earth am I even going to spend another amount, that equals to a full-polished title, i.e. 55 bucks for a single chassis??? The Masakari pack is the "better" deal, but all these deals are ridiculous at this point.

[NRP]

One of the things I find potentially intriguing about the Clan chassis is their modularity. It seems like it will mean none of the 3 variants will be useless because you essentially build your "variant" from pieces.

This would be a welcome contrast to IS chassis, where more often than not, two of the three variants are junk, which makes grinding them an exercise in frustration, and when you're done there is no use for the chassis.

[Pariah Devalis]

NRP, on 21 December 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

One of the things I find potentially intriguing about the Clan chassis is their modularity. It seems like it will mean none of the 3 variants will be useless because you essentially build your "variant" from pieces.

This would be a welcome contrast to IS chassis, where more often than not, two of the three variants are junk, which makes grinding them an exercise in frustration, and when you're done there is no use for the chassis.

And precisely why the Clan pack is actually a great deal. You get two other variants to steal parts from. My current and only gripe with the Clan mechs as currently planned (though they stated it is open to change) is the lack of being able to modify the armor values. OK, fixed internals, fine, fixed armor TYPE, fine, fixed engine, fine. But being unable to correct a serious, serious lack of armor coverage on several mechs (Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, Kit Fox, just to name a few iconics) is not fine. :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 December 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[FireSlade]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

And precisely why the Clan pack is actually a great deal. You get two other variants to steal parts from. My current and only gripe with the Clan mechs as currently planned (though they stated it is open to change) is the lack of being able to modify the armor values. OK, fixed internals, fine, fixed armor TYPE, fine, fixed engine, fine. But being unable to correct a serious, serious lack of armor coverage on several mechs (Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, Kit Fox, just to name a few iconics) is not fine. :\

That too scares me. On most of my IS mechs I run about 85% up front 15% in the rear sometimes more and the Clans ran a more balanced ratio because you never knew where the next shot was going to hit. In MWO with these small maps you know where the enemy is except when the pesky light sneaks up behind you and by then you are turning and they are running.

Edited by FireSlade, 21 December 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[NRP]

Perhaps PGI will realize this too during testing? Then again, they do give the stock IS mechs pathetic armor distributions, so . . . maybe they have a different mindset.

I wonder how long it will be until they give us more details? I know June is a long way off, so they probably aren't even sure themselves yet. Nevertheless, if they want our money sooner rather than later, more details would definitely loosen up the wallet.

[Ngamok]

Ryoken, Thor, Timberwolf for me.

[Pariah Devalis]

NRP, on 21 December 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Perhaps PGI will realize this too during testing? Then again, they do give the stock IS mechs pathetic armor distributions, so . . . maybe they have a different mindset.

I wonder how long it will be until they give us more details? I know June is a long way off, so they probably aren't even sure themselves yet. Nevertheless, if they want our money sooner rather than later, more details would definitely loosen up the wallet.

In their defense, the IS stock mechs are the IS stock mechs from the tabletop. If this was stockwarrior online, all the Clan mechs here would be incredible since the IS mechs would be total junk. Instead, you are able to modify the hell out of the IS mechs to near clan levels. Without the ability to modify either of the two things most important to survivability (armor or speed), you run into a problem here. At least all non-light Clan mechs have speed down in spades. I mean, take the Timber Wolf for example. It hauls at 86 KPH! BEFORE speed tweak! Heavy heavy emphasis on speed in the clan tourman. It is very unusual to see mechs designed for firepower and durability over speed - notable exceptions being Dire Wolf and Nova Cat omnimechs.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

It is very unusual to see mechs designed for firepower and durability over speed - notable exceptions being Dire Wolf and Nova Cat omnimechs.

And Kit Fox?

[Pariah Devalis]

Yes, and kit fox. And adder. But I was referencing specifically non-light mechs from the fifth sentence on.

[ChapeL]

Hmm...

Storm Crow for the Bravo Config. ( Which had better be included )
Nova because although hot, this thing has a low profile, huge arms and jump Jets and is 50 tons (which happens to be my sweetspot in this game)
Adder because I forsee dropping in one frequently once tonnage restrictions are in effect and everyone else jumps on assaults and heavies
Timber Wolf ... for nostalgia reasons if anything

[dragnier1]

NRP, on 21 December 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

please keep the bitching and ideological rants out.

I like that!

I'm looking forward to the stormcrow. As of current pricing i think i might have to wait till the cbill version comes out.

That aside, i remember playing the timber wolf in mw2 and all i ever used were the lasers...