1080 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

The Faceless, on 03 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

But the post was about the fact that AC's and PPC currently have Instant pinpoint damage that can affect the game in a negative way. The only other suggestions that I've seen center around convergence and in its own way this does the same thing.

Exactly, the main problem is convergence. All weapons hitting the same spot is anathema to the BattleTech Universe - or TT would have had just one to-hit roll per turn for all weapons fired instead of one for each weapon (or missile/missile group in the case of SRMs/LRMs).

But convergence isn't easy to fix in a satisfying manner; either you have to introduce randomness in the form of a cone of fire, or you have to institute some complex (one reticule for each weapon/limb), crippling (global cooldown/forced chain-fire) or otherwise unintuitive system (ghost aim? just think of what Paul could dream up...) that limits aim - and that's an issue for a lot of players. Most seem to want to hit what they aim at - and I'm wholly in that camp myself. Aiming should be skill-based, not random.

So if you don't want to limit players' ability to aim, you have to attack the problem from another angle - and I think I've made it clear what angle I see as the most efficient: Take away instant damage by making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration.

Two out of three weapon types already work this way, and it's not a coincidence that the third group is currently dominating the game; it's for all intents and purposes superior to put all your damage in one spot than to spread it out.

By making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration you lessen the synergy these weapons currently have with the convergence system, making them work under the same conditions as the other weapon types; to put all your damage into one spot you need a steady hand and a bit of skill.

And I believe that doing this would also if not outright solve then at least alleviate the problem we currently have with convergence; if a dual AC/20 put 4 or 8 damage in one spot instead of 40, and the rest of the damage was spread out in a short time-frame, that would be enough to not have to bother with convergence.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

'Same argument as usual'

'same argument as usual' 'scroll up'

[Myomes]

Should we nerf ballistics to act like lasers now, especially with their limited ammo and travel time? Or should we unnerf lasers DoT effect? You know how frustrating it is to take a light hunter mech from the tabletop and be practically useless because of laser DoT, where a streak or AC/10-20 gun would serve far better to pop those lights?

[Mcgral18]

Myomes, on 03 January 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

Should we nerf ballistics to act like lasers now, especially with their limited ammo and travel time? Or should we unnerf lasers DoT effect? You know how frustrating it is to take a light hunter mech from the tabletop and be practically useless because of laser DoT, where a streak or AC/10-20 gun would serve far better to pop those lights?

If we go back to TT damage and armor values and get a nice RNG targetting computer, sure. As it is, that would make TTK...so very low. PGI screwed up the translation from TT to FPS, and making everything frontloaded isn't going to help.

For the most part, it will buff lights and possibly make them harder to hit (depending on your accuracy, and if HSR is in your favour).

[Myomes]

double armor and DoT laser was a huge nerf to laser systems. They were only good when people were boating them, because you could still count on 5-6 damage in an instantaneous hit, and then getting some extra if you manage to hold on target.

[YueFei]

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Exactly, the main problem is convergence. All weapons hitting the same spot is anathema to the BattleTech Universe - or TT would have had just one to-hit roll per turn for all weapons fired instead of one for each weapon (or missile/missile group in the case of SRMs/LRMs).

But convergence isn't easy to fix in a satisfying manner; either you have to introduce randomness in the form of a cone of fire, or you have to institute some complex (one reticule for each weapon/limb), crippling (global cooldown/forced chain-fire) or otherwise unintuitive system (ghost aim? just think of what Paul could dream up...) that limits aim - and that's an issue for a lot of players. Most seem to want to hit what they aim at - and I'm wholly in that camp myself. Aiming should be skill-based, not random.

So if you don't want to limit players' ability to aim, you have to attack the problem from another angle - and I think I've made it clear what angle I see as the most efficient: Take away instant damage by making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration.

Two out of three weapon types already work this way, and it's not a coincidence that the third group is currently dominating the game; it's for all intents and purposes superior to put all your damage in one spot than to spread it out.

By making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration you lessen the synergy these weapons currently have with the convergence system, making them work under the same conditions as the other weapon types; to put all your damage into one spot you need a steady hand and a bit of skill.

And I believe that doing this would also if not outright solve then at least alleviate the problem we currently have with convergence; if a dual AC/20 put 4 or 8 damage in one spot instead of 40, and the rest of the damage was spread out in a short time-frame, that would be enough to not have to bother with convergence.

The problem with any kind of stream or burst-fire mechanics is that it nerfs individual weapons for the sake of making the game's TTK higher with combos of pin-point front-loaded damage weapons. This is why Homeless Bill's solution was so *good*: it left individual weapons powerful, so you could put an AC/20 round into exactly one armor panel, but if you tried to fire an AC/20 and 2 PPCs simultaneously, you'd lose convergence. To get pinpoint precision you had to time it and space out your shots, which gave the victim time to twist and maneuver to spread the damage out.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Because... I have always beaten ac40 jagers? That is a whole nother argument there... and I bring up jump jets because I feel that is the main issue as to why people have problems with the weapon systems the way they are. Ive stated my opinion multiple times and just as much as people are entitled to stating there thoughts on weapons, im entitled to stating my thoughts on jump jets... and come now im being pretty civil here.

"Always"? Prove that statement.

You may feel jump jets are the main problem, and I agree it aggravates the problem, but they aren't the root. Look at all the meta builds and count how many are jump jet capable. Remove jump jets and every one of those mechs would still exist as a meta mech. Now remove front loaded damage from ACs and PPCs. How many builds remain the same?

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

That said ..... are we disagreeing on how best to make it survive, or are we disagreeing on how it will survive based on playership and finished product?

Yes

YueFei, on 03 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

The problem with any kind of stream or burst-fire mechanics is that it nerfs individual weapons for the sake of making the game's TTK higher with combos of pin-point front-loaded damage weapons. This is why Homeless Bill's solution was so *good*: it left individual weapons powerful, so you could put an AC/20 round into exactly one armor panel, but if you tried to fire an AC/20 and 2 PPCs simultaneously, you'd lose convergence. To get pinpoint precision you had to time it and space out your shots, which gave the victim time to twist and maneuver to spread the damage out.

Spreading out 20-point front-loaded hits by 0.52 seconds doesn't solve the problem. Spreading out 20 points of damage over 4-5 hits in 0.52 seconds does. Nothing against convergence, but it doesn't solve the problem.

[Tombstoner]

Homeless bobs idea also created a pathway for up grades that when maxed out would eliminate any divergence. it provides a clear use for clan targeting computers.

most important of all would be the addition of a new factor for game balance, independent of heat or damage

Edited by Tombstoner, 03 January 2014 - 07:23 PM.

[Artgathan]

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Exactly, the main problem is convergence. All weapons hitting the same spot is anathema to the BattleTech Universe - or TT would have had just one to-hit roll per turn for all weapons fired instead of one for each weapon (or missile/missile group in the case of SRMs/LRMs).

But convergence isn't easy to fix in a satisfying manner; either you have to introduce randomness in the form of a cone of fire, or you have to institute some complex (one reticule for each weapon/limb), crippling (global cooldown/forced chain-fire) or otherwise unintuitive system (ghost aim? just think of what Paul could dream up...) that limits aim - and that's an issue for a lot of players. Most seem to want to hit what they aim at - and I'm wholly in that camp myself. Aiming should be skill-based, not random.

So if you don't want to limit players' ability to aim, you have to attack the problem from another angle - and I think I've made it clear what angle I see as the most efficient: Take away instant damage by making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration.

Two out of three weapon types already work this way, and it's not a coincidence that the third group is currently dominating the game; it's for all intents and purposes superior to put all your damage in one spot than to spread it out.

By making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration you lessen the synergy these weapons currently have with the convergence system, making them work under the same conditions as the other weapon types; to put all your damage into one spot you need a steady hand and a bit of skill.

And I believe that doing this would also if not outright solve then at least alleviate the problem we currently have with convergence; if a dual AC/20 put 4 or 8 damage in one spot instead of 40, and the rest of the damage was spread out in a short time-frame, that would be enough to not have to bother with convergence.

See:

Artgathan, on 03 January 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

I've got a potential convergence solution. It might first seem like a Cone of Fire, but it's not - I assure you.

Change our targeting reticule to a Dot in the center of a Circle. If you chain-fire weapons, they go where the dot is pointing. The magic happens if you fire more than one weapon at once.

If you've got your cross hairs over an enemy mech, it is likely that different components (CT, LT, RT, Arms, Legs) will simultaneously be occupying the Circle [I don't mean to suggest that the Circle should be big enough to fit an entire mech into, but it should be large enough that only getting 1 component inside it takes a high degree of skill]. The Circle does not include empty space. The weapons that you're firing in a group each represent a proportion of the damage being dealt (for instance, if you're firing 2 Medium Lasers, they're each doing 50% of the damage).

Essentially what this system does is try to match up the damage you're doing with the components in the Circle. For Example: if you're firing an AC/10 and 2 ML, while the Circle is 75% filled by CT and 25% filled by LT, the AC/10 and 1 ML (75% of the damage) will be aimed at the CT and 1 ML (25% of the damage) will be aimed at the LT. This example is (obviously) a little too perfect, but it serves to illustrate a point. Rounding will need to occur in the actual game environment, which is why I have the following Rounding Rules:

• If you fire fewer weapons than there are components in the Circle, the components occupying the least amount of space are ignored (So if you were firing 2 weapons at 3 components that occupied 85%, 10% and 5% of the circle, the 5% component would be ignored)
  
• If there are more weapons than there are components, at least two components must be struck

The system can also be set to work slightly differently if the user fires weapons totaling above X amount of damage. So for instance, if there was a 20 damage limit and you fired an AC/10, AC/5 and 2 ML (totaling 25 damage) when the Circle is 75% CT and 25% LT, each of the weapons has a 75% chance to be aimed at the CT and a 25% chance to be aimed at the LT.

So this system has three "firing modes":

• Pinpoint Accuracy for Single Fired / Chain Fired Weapons
  
• Controlled Accuracy for Multiple Weapons under X Damage
  
• Random Accuracy for Multiple Weapons above X Damage

A few extra notes:

• If the Dot is on an enemy mech, you're guaranteed a hit. There's not "there was empty space in the circle so the game decided to fire a shot that misses". The Circle discounts empty space before calculating what proportion each component takes up inside of it.
  
• If the Dot is not over a target then all weapons fire converges instantly on the Dot when the trigger is pulled
  
• LBX, SRM and LRM weapons are exempt from this system
  
• The system resets every 0.5 seconds. This means that if you fire a weapon and then immediately fire another, the system will distribute the second shot according as described above.

I would suggest putting the damage cap at 20. This lets the AC/20 retain its status as the king of pinpoint damage.

The advantages of this system are that players can know where their shots will be aimed before they pull the trigger (if they know their weapons and their targets hitboxes and they're firing weapons that total less than X damage).

There's ways to modify this system as well: the circle could grow / shrink in size depending on what you're targeting (so it's a smaller circle when targeting lights and larger when targeting assaults), if you're moving / if they're moving, jump jet use, heat levels, range, etc...

It would even allow us to add C3 in a meaningful way (IE: if you have an ally who has C3 and currently has a smaller Circle than you, you get to use their Circle when firing at their target).

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

"Always"? Prove that statement.

You may feel jump jets are the main problem, and I agree it aggravates the problem, but they aren't the root. Look at all the meta builds and count how many are jump jet capable. Remove jump jets and every one of those mechs would still exist as a meta mech. Now remove front loaded damage from ACs and PPCs. How many builds remain the same?


Yes

its pointless to make changes just so everyone isnt running 'one thing' they will just gravitate to another 'one thing'

I do not feel the builds besides the jump capable ones are issues at all.

I have never had an issue with ac20 jager. avoid them or kill them depending on your build. they are a gimic at best.

Edited by Varent, 03 January 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Matches faster and I get more Kills. Its a win in my book.

This is totaly the opposite from what i want - Matches should be slower and Kills harder!

[Thorqemada]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

From Sarna, Description of an AC-20.

Description
The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

>An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.<

It is save to assume that singe shot ACs are only AC2 and AC5 while the description of AC20s is allways that of a Weapon firing Bursts.
The biggest AC20 has 203mm, the 150mm fires ten Shells, no way any AC20 fires not at least 4 or 5 Shells.

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 January 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[Varent]

Thorqemada, on 03 January 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

>An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.<

It is save to assume that singe shot ACs are only AC2 and AC5 while the description of AC20s is allways that of a Weapon firing Bursts.
The bioggest AC20 has 203mm, the 150mm fires ten Shells, no way any AC20 fires not at least 4 or 5 Shells.

actually that description is from the ac20 describing it being sometimes a single shell.

[Thorqemada]

It does not so bcs what your Quote is - a generic description of the Weapon Type Autocannon which ranges from Single Shell to Burst Fire Weapons.

The Weaponclass AC20 is specifically mentioned as Burst Fire Weapon in the relevant examples.


PS: And Burst-Fire-ACs are probably really impressive for the Dakka-Loving Pilot bcs the Dakka of an AC20 should be more impressive than a few AC2 or AC5.

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 January 2014 - 11:00 PM.

[YueFei]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

Spreading out 20-point front-loaded hits by 0.52 seconds doesn't solve the problem. Spreading out 20 points of damage over 4-5 hits in 0.52 seconds does. Nothing against convergence, but it doesn't solve the problem.

It does solve the problem. There's nothing wrong with an AC/20 putting 20 points of damage into a single panel. It does that in TT and is balanced for that. There's nothing wrong with a PPC putting 10 damage into a single panel.

Where things go awry is when your entire stack of weaponry hits the same spot. The TT armor system simply can't handle it. Yeah there's doubled armor, but that merely equalizes with the more-than-doubled firing rates.

Homeless Bill's system causes your shots to de-converge when you fire everything at the same time, akin to most FPS games where your COF grows if you fire as fast as possible (full-auto). Firing an alpha strike in MWO is the same kind of thing, you're firing everything as fast as possible: simultaneously. Homeless Bill's system just puts an accuracy penalty for firing "full-auto" in MWO as it were.

You get perfect accuracy if you just wait momentarily between shots. That gives the victim time to twist. Most players can reasonably react within half a second of being hit. Lasers have a 1 second duration and players start to react to getting hit by lasers fast enough to spread the damage.

Right now when I watch some of the really good players, they do their best to try to shield damaged sections of their mech. The problem is that the margin for error is razor thin. React even a couple hundred milliseconds late and you eat an entire salvo to the CT. With Homeless Bill's system, either you eat an entire salvo spread across multiple sections of your mech, or your opponent staggers his fire, and you have time to shield damaged areas after taking that first hit.

[Varent]

Thorqemada, on 03 January 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

It does not so bcs what your Quote is a generic description of the Weapon Type Autocannon which ranges from Single Shell to Burst Fire Weapons.

The Weaponclass AC20 is specifically mentioned as Burst Fire Weapon in the relevant examples.


PS: And Burst-Fire-ACs are probably really impressive for the Dakka-Loving Pilot bcs the Dakka of an AC20 should be more impressive than a few AC2 or AC5.

go look at sarna, go look at the ac20, go look at the definition given. enough said.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What's wrong with at least testing out a mix of single-shot/high-damage/longer-cooldown weapons, with fully-auto or burst-fire/lower damage/shorter-cooldown weapons to at least provide more options and variety? Especially with projectile/ballistic weapons?

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

go look at sarna, go look at the ac20, go look at the definition given. enough said.

If we look at other sources, it also states that when mounted on the 100 ton Atlas it knocks it to the ground, since humanoid mechs can't handle the recoil, neither could the Jaeger. While seeing an AC40 fly to the ground, or tearing its arm off would be amusing, it also breaks lore.

Those single shot AC20s were mounted on mechs that were lower to the ground, build to handle the recoil with squat platforms, or the 100 ton Demolisher AC40 tank.

[Varent]

Praetor Shepard, on 03 January 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

What's wrong with at least testing out a mix of single-shot/high-damage/longer-cooldown weapons, with fully-auto or burst-fire/lower damage/shorter-cooldown weapons to at least provide more options and variety? Especially with projectile/ballistic weapons?

realistically if you wanna go full sarna there should be multiple makes of each autocannon type that all have different gages of slugs, some full solid rounds, some burst, etc etc... each with different degrees of reliability.

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

If we look at other sources, it also states that when mounted on the 100 ton Atlas it knocks it to the ground, since humanoid mechs can't handle the recoil, neither could the Jaeger. While seeing an AC40 fly to the ground, or tearing its arm off would be amusing, it also breaks lore.

Those single shot AC20s were mounted on mechs that were lower to the ground, build to handle the recoil with squat platforms, or the 100 ton Demolisher AC40 tank.

urban mech says no.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

go look at sarna, go look at the ac20, go look at the definition given. enough said.

Indeed.

Until it's changed: http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20

Quote

The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.