1080 replies to this topic

[Arahantius]

Yeah, I used to think that ballistics or PPC would be an advantage.
I changed my mind real fast after using them and I've been back with lasers ever since.

PPC has gigantic heat that renders the mech useless after a few hit or miss shots. Lasers spread and therefore always hit unless you made a terrible shot.

AC's can miss a lot of the time because of the server ping problem. The number of times I fired an AC weapon and hit the target dead on then have the shot register as a miss is uncountable. I'd never ever go back to ballistics with the ping I get in Australia.

In other games, I'm a bloody sniper. I am a great shot with real weapons but I can't hit a barn door in this MMO. Lasers please.

[YueFei]

I've given this some more thought and realize this:
None of the individual weapons are overpowered. There are *underpowered* weapons, but no overpowered weapons.

Nobody complains about the AC/20 strapped on the HBK's shoulder. Nobody complains about the pair of PPCs strapped to a CPLT-K2.

The thing that makes people squirm is when a stack of weaponry hits you in the same spot. As I said in an earlier post, this can triple or quadruple the lethality in MWO compared to TT. Factor in good aim that can pick off torso sections and ignore your legs and arms (and some mechs have arm hitboxes that are useless for shielding), making half your armor unused, and that's re-doubles the lethality on top of that.

That makes mechs that can strap together several pin-point damage weapons up to 6 to 8 times deadlier than their TT equivalent. The TTK of their victims is short as a result.

Mechs that have good hitboxes, have arms that can shield, jump jets that can spread some hits to the legs, and use a dead shoulder as damage mitigation for their CT (50% damage reduction), feel appropriately survivable in this environment when piloted skillfully. They are able to make use of a greater portion of their mech's armor, and mitigate the damage to their CT even after losing a shoulder. Such mechs take damage in a very TT-like fashion.

This is why I feel that HITBOX CHANGES are the most important thing for game balance right now.

And for mech variants without jump jets, buff their acceleration/deceleration so they can spread damage across their torsos better. Then add the ability to crouch, and you'll get closer to balancing the various mech chassis.

[Sandpit]

YueFei, on 11 January 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

I've given this some more thought and realize this:
None of the individual weapons are overpowered. There are *underpowered* weapons, but no overpowered weapons.

This times 1000

Hitboxes are all getting reworked so it'll be interesting to see what happens there.
The newest "LRMs are OP" thread from a couple of days ago was all about how a few mechs raining down a few hundred LRMs on his head was "op" Yet a single mech firing off lrm10x2 is never accused of it.
Bunches of weapons don't make that singular weapon op. It just makes it a pain when the min.maxers get ahold of it. If you nerf a weapon based on this mentality then those who actually use balanced loadouts and such are completely and utterly screwed because then those weapons become worthless unless you boat them

[YueFei]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

This times 1000

Hitboxes are all getting reworked so it'll be interesting to see what happens there.
The newest "LRMs are OP" thread from a couple of days ago was all about how a few mechs raining down a few hundred LRMs on his head was "op" Yet a single mech firing off lrm10x2 is never accused of it.
Bunches of weapons don't make that singular weapon op. It just makes it a pain when the min.maxers get ahold of it. If you nerf a weapon based on this mentality then those who actually use balanced loadouts and such are completely and utterly screwed because then those weapons become worthless unless you boat them

Yep. I have been killed on quite a few times by massed LRM fire. I never felt mad about it. Just amused on some occasions where I know the missiles are coming, I squint my eyes at a rock or a ridgeline and wonder to myself "will that block the missiles?" Then I run over there and hug the ridge and continue to get pummeled by LRMs until I die. I just shrug, make a mental note to myself "that's not tall enough cover", learn from it, and move on to the next match!

[Sandpit]

YueFei, on 11 January 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Yep. I have been killed on quite a few times by massed LRM fire. I never felt mad about it. Just amused on some occasions where I know the missiles are coming, I squint my eyes at a rock or a ridgeline and wonder to myself "will that block the missiles?" Then I run over there and hug the ridge and continue to get pummeled by LRMs until I die. I just shrug, make a mental note to myself "that's not tall enough cover", learn from it, and move on to the next match!

A good rule of thumb is 1 1/2 times as tall as your mech for cover. When I'm not skylined and I'm getting targeted the first thing I do is turn around and start looking for a squirrel spotter somewhere. If you pop off a few shots at them they'll usually pull back into cover themselves breaking that lock. Then find a few teammates to hide out with lol

[Cimarb]

Arahantius, on 11 January 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Yeah, I used to think that ballistics or PPC would be an advantage.
I changed my mind real fast after using them and I've been back with lasers ever since.

PPC has gigantic heat that renders the mech useless after a few hit or miss shots. Lasers spread and therefore always hit unless you made a terrible shot.

AC's can miss a lot of the time because of the server ping problem. The number of times I fired an AC weapon and hit the target dead on then have the shot register as a miss is uncountable. I'd never ever go back to ballistics with the ping I get in Australia.

In other games, I'm a bloody sniper. I am a great shot with real weapons but I can't hit a barn door in this MMO. Lasers please.

Mileage may vary. PPCs, as well as ACs even, have had to be nerfed through excessive heat penalties and arbitrary ghost heat. That should not be the case. If the FLD was addressed by making them burst-fire, there would not be a need for ghost heat. It would also make ACs and PPCs worth using with your bad ping, since they would function more like lasers, which you said work better.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Mileage may vary. PPCs, as well as ACs even, have had to be nerfed through excessive heat penalties and arbitrary ghost heat. That should not be the case. If the FLD was addressed by making them burst-fire, there would not be a need for ghost heat. It would also make ACs and PPCs worth using with your bad ping, since they would function more like lasers, which you said work better.

Except those of us that actually like ghost heat. It limits the ability for a lot of ******** builds out there. Take away jump jets and you don't have the issue that exists currently with ppc and ac. That makes the dominant meta open up for more builds and takes away the issue that exists for most classes minus lights.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Except those of us that actually like ghost heat. It limits the ability for a lot of ******** builds out there. Take away jump jets and you don't have the issue that exists currently with ppc and ac. That makes the dominant meta open up for more builds and takes away the issue that exists for most classes minus lights.

Except that is a fallacy. Taking out jump jets (which you flip flop on your phrasing about, as this seems like you want them gone completely) will not get rid of the issue with PPC/AC. The "current meta" is FLD, not jump sniping, as you can see with the number of Phracts (esp Ilyas) and Jagers in every match. Currently, while you CAN use other weapon systems, the ideal setup is as many FLD weapons as you can carry. Jump jets help with that delivery, yes, but are not the root issue.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Except that is a fallacy. Taking out jump jets (which you flip flop on your phrasing about, as this seems like you want them gone completely) will not get rid of the issue with PPC/AC. The "current meta" is FLD, not jump sniping, as you can see with the number of Phracts (esp Ilyas) and Jagers in every match. Currently, while you CAN use other weapon systems, the ideal setup is as many FLD weapons as you can carry. Jump jets help with that delivery, yes, but are not the root issue.

Ive stated multiple times I don't want them gone. I feel they need to be altered in a way that wont effect light mechs but instead will impose a degree of difficulty on using weapons while jumping. Ive listed this across multiple forum threads now actually. And as much as you think the meta is FLD it really is not. It only is FLD on jump capable mechs. non jump capable mechs are not as viable as you feel they are with just FLD and most die horribly to true brawling mechs. Example would be the Ilya wich is not FLD but instead relies on duration damage and ripping someone apart with high amounts of firepower. The same can be said for every other jager out there that at high elo don't tend to run dual ac20 since they are useless and others simply are better. FLD is not the root issue. But here we go again going over multiple threads just stating it back and forth and refusing to play test it to come to any logical conclusion so all of this is just assumption and thought regardless

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Ive stated multiple times I don't want them gone. I feel they need to be altered in a way that wont effect light mechs but instead will impose a degree of difficulty on using weapons while jumping. Ive listed this across multiple forum threads now actually. And as much as you think the meta is FLD it really is not. It only is FLD on jump capable mechs. non jump capable mechs are not as viable as you feel they are with just FLD and most die horribly to true brawling mechs. Example would be the Ilya wich is not FLD but instead relies on duration damage and ripping someone apart with high amounts of firepower. The same can be said for every other jager out there that at high elo don't tend to run dual ac20 since they are useless and others simply are better. FLD is not the root issue. But here we go again going over multiple threads just stating it back and forth and refusing to play test it to come to any logical conclusion so all of this is just assumption and thought regardless

Play test what?... When you can play test burst-fire ballistics and spread/beam PPCs, or convergence changes, or any of the other suggestions that have been put forth, let me know.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Play test what?... When you can play test burst-fire ballistics and spread/beam PPCs, or convergence changes, or any of the other suggestions that have been put forth, let me know.

You can play test the advantages of jump jets vs non. Try out the same builds without jump capability versus a mech not using FLD weapons and not jump jets. Im pretty sure the mechs that use those FLD weapons would be pretty screwed versus a typical brawler.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

You can play test the advantages of jump jets vs non. Try out the same builds without jump capability versus a mech not using FLD weapons and not jump jets. Im pretty sure the mechs that use those FLD weapons would be pretty screwed versus a typical brawler.

You can do that yourself. I do just as well without jump jets as I do with them, so I already know the answer.

The test is to use one or the other, though, not both vs neither.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

You can do that yourself. I do just as well without jump jets as I do with them, so I already know the answer.

The test is to use one or the other, though, not both vs neither.

Actually both vs neither would somewhat show that there is more balance then you think in weapons when you simply subtract jump jets. I have play tested this, as I said and ive found without jump jets those builds are not scary. At all. In fact they tend to be underpowered once range is closed. My own thought for including you is so that you could see that for yourself. But you are refusing to do so.

Edited by Varent, 12 January 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Actually both vs neither would somewhat show that there is more balance then you think in weapons when you simply subtract jump jets. I have play tested this, as I said and ive found without jump jets those builds are not scary. At all. In fact they tend to be underpowered once range is closed. My own thought for including you is so that you could see that for yourself. But you are refusing to do so.

Yes, I'm refusing to duel you to appease your ego. Have a great day though.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Yes, I'm refusing to duel you to appease your ego. Have a great day though.

I mentioned not dueling in an earlier post. I mentioned play testing amongst a group of friends. You could simply watch and even coordinate it. Im not trying to be confrontational here im trying to offer an open forum for testing something.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

I mentioned not dueling in an earlier post. I mentioned play testing amongst a group of friends. You could simply watch and even coordinate it. Im not trying to be confrontational here im trying to offer an open forum for testing something.

I understand that, but I'm not looking for the same thing you are. I want to test possible alternatives, not continue disputing jump jets vs. the world. Jump Jets aren't the issue and jump sniping would be drastically reduced by removing FLD because that is how they deliver damage during short jumps. You don't understand that, and obviously aren't going to regardless of what I do.

I appreciate the offer, but I don't do groups. Thanks though.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

I understand that, but I'm not looking for the same thing you are. I want to test possible alternatives, not continue disputing jump jets vs. the world. Jump Jets aren't the issue and jump sniping would be drastically reduced by removing FLD because that is how they deliver damage during short jumps. You don't understand that, and obviously aren't going to regardless of what I do.

I appreciate the offer, but I don't do groups. Thanks though.

and you cant understand that changing jump jets would remove the issue from the game for brawlers and change the meta while still keeping them asa danger for lights. This is important.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 12 January 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

and you cant understand that changing jump jets would remove the issue from the game for brawlers and change the meta while still keeping them asa danger for lights. This is important.

No, it wouldn't.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 12 January 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

No, it wouldn't.

I disagree, I've been testing it with friends and it works quite well.

[YueFei]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

A good rule of thumb is 1 1/2 times as tall as your mech for cover. When I'm not skylined and I'm getting targeted the first thing I do is turn around and start looking for a squirrel spotter somewhere. If you pop off a few shots at them they'll usually pull back into cover themselves breaking that lock. Then find a few teammates to hide out with lol

Yeah, I've learned that the hard way, and the tip about looking for a spotter is good advice. I've also learned to be more aware of where the nearest piece of tall enough cover is in advance. If the missiles catch me at a bad moment, I'll still eat a few salvos while running to cover, but at least now I run towards *effective* cover instead of just a hill that whispers lies to me about how it will keep me safe from the dirty LRMs.