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#1 Varent

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:54 AM

Weapons are overall fairly balanced, or at least close enough to balanced that its getting really annoying reading threads about them not being 'perfect'. Its not a perfect world we live in, stop expecting a game to be perfect.

LRMS - High Range, Overcomes soft cover, Low general overall heat for there use. When an enemy mech lacks ecm or ams coverage and are caught out in the open they can be eaten alive in seconds. Only thing that stops it is stacked ams or ecm. Tag defeats ecm, narc defeats lack of lock when used properly. people complain its op when there are tons of them raining down on you. well yes if you got caught out in the open or step outside of ecm bubble or didnt bring ams, you probly are writing your own death warrant, its cost and reward. Some players complain there underpowered because of ecm and ams etc. To this id say bring tag, wait for the right times to rain missles and use positioning well. The good players make it work still regardless.

SRMS - low weight, high damage, spread damage without artemis. low heat overall for the damage potential. Overall good weapon with the exception of hit detection but even with that said they still do tons of damage overall. great brawling weapon with the only major complaint by anyone being the hit detection, admitedly if this is the least you have to complain about id say thats doing pretty good.

NARC - Actually works quite well in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with it. I run with a mech pilot who swears by it and its actually alot of fun to watch him run up and hit a mech with it while we all zone in on them with LRMS.

streak SRMS - I cant find anything wrong with these. you can bring beagle to defeat ecm if your having issues or a tag, other then that these tend to work great in the roll they are assigned to.

machine guns - roughly the same dps as a medium laser. no heat. weight cost of 1.5 effectively with ammo and 2 slots. Can usually get up to 2-3 machine guns per ton of ammo and do fine in a match. Good crit rate, great brawling weapon overall. great in its roll.

autocannons - Generally high weight, require a good amount of ammo and some of them produce large amounts of heat when used incorrectly. Alot of slots are required and due to that they are also vulnerable to being targetted by a smart enemy who will try to take out your weapon system if its the primary one. People complain because....high alpha, lowish heat, good sustained damage on some. I would argue they paid for it with slots and weight and if your smart you should target the weapon systems or avoid them or not put yourself into a position where you are in range. People complain also because, ac2 has too much heat, and ac20 has too much heat when fired with a second. people also complain with uac5 jam chance. ac2 however is a great long range supression weapon that I would argue when used correctly can bt devastating to enemies at range. When used at range its not that hard to duck in cover every once in awhile to cool down. ac20 has rediculous alpha potential and strength that should be avoided fighting in close when you see it as an opponent. That said its not that hard if your using it to space out your shots a split second to avoid ghost heat when using two of them. Regarding uac5... I use this weapon extensively and consistently get over 1000 damage at least once a week using them. I have never had an issue with the jam chance. I kinda see that as a cost of doing business. When they jam, take cover and wait a few seconds or torso twist until they unjam then keep fighting.

Gause Rifle - the charge up is annoying, but that said they have amazing range and are capable of cockpitting mechs at range if you roll with two of them. they also produce no heat and can therefore be spammed to keep peoples heads down at high range as well. While the charge time makes it difficult its not impossible and honestly it has now defined this weapon as what it should be. A snipers weapon meant to be used in back with someone taking there time and lining up there shots. Thos that want to jump snipe have simply gone on to use autocanons now so it really didnt effect to much.

Lasers - high heat, lowish damage, no ammo cost, decent ranges on many of them. Lasers have and always will be backup weapons. Think of them as the sidearm your carrying around just in case your main weapon fails. That said they can be utilized as primary weapons on some mechs but those mechs usually are ones that are set into support rolls. Accept this, live with it, and move on. Yes this means your 6 laser whatever is nerfed. It does not mean you cant play it. It simply means its now a support mech with a roll as such. Its easy to throw on medium lasers to just about any mech in existence for the purpose of a backup weapon and when you combine them with enough heat sinks you can still be potent.

Flamers - They actually do overheat mechs. I dont see much point myself in runing more then about two of them. But ive successfully kept mechs shut down while ripping them apart with autocannon and missle. Its quite funny really.

PPC - good range, good alpha, high heat, no damage under 90 meters. The end all be all jump sniping weapon. allows for high precision alpha with a large amount of heat sinks and weight invested overall to be effected. Defeated by enemies who get past the 90 meter minimum range. People complain because they dont like being jump sniped or alphaed. Those same people usually complain because they dont utilize cover properly or get in range of the ppcs minimum range either. Its pretty defeatable and balanced for what it is long as your smart and pay attention to the field of battle and dont use (scrap) builds yourself.

ERPPC - Amazing range, good alpha, omg high heat.... Not utilized much anymore just simply due to its high heat but that said it still has its uses. it works very well when used in conjunction with gause rifles on a dedicated sniping mech. It also allows you that one or two extra hits againsts mechs that get in under normal ppc range. Overall balanced for what it is when you realize its a sniping weapon.



Ive played this game since closed beta. Seen the ups and downs of all the weapon groups and mechs as they have come in and out of favor on multiple levels. Frankly the weapons overall are in a pretty decent place right now. I will admit some playstyles are overplayed and perhaps overpowered but that has nothing to do with the weapons themselves.

Edited by Varent, 23 December 2013 - 09:27 AM.


#2 FupDup

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:10 AM

Narc: Does very, very little for the weight investment.

Flamers: Do virtually nothing other than heat up the person who is using them, and troll the person being shot at. Rumor has it that Flamers only deal 0.2 heat per second to the target, and the heat generation on the shooter increases "exponentially" the longer its being fired.

Command Console: Does literally nothing.

LB 10-X: Less effective than the AC/10 because pinpoint damage > spread damage, every day of the week.

Small Laser: 2 of them are almost completely outclassed by 1 ML for the same weight and fewer critical slots.

Pulse Lasers: Too hot, too heavy, too short ranged, and too weak.

Jump Jets: The first jet provides a disproportionally high reward compared to additional jets added. Also, you get a lot more gains than you have to sacrifice for jets.

The maneuverability of larger mechs is arguably a bit too fast in some cases, which helps to marginalize mediums and lights (heavy/assault warrior online happens for a reason, guys, and it ain't because of lacking artificial resource limits. It's because of combat effectiveness).

Painfully slow heat dissipation disproportionally punishes energy weapons (and missiles to a lesser extent).

Hill Climb Module: Does practically nothing.

A wide variety of chassis and variants are effectively obsolete, and only a narrow set of mechs stand at the top tier.

Perfect, instant convergence. 'Nuff said.

Information Warfare is still FUBAR with the current implementations of ECM and BAP, which function primarily as on/off buttons for missiles rather than information manipulation/gathering/distorting tools.

Role Warfare is absent.

Edited by FupDup, 23 December 2013 - 09:13 AM.


#3 Sybreed

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:19 AM

yeah, things are EXTREMELY BALANCED RIGHT?

Wait, you forgot to mention flamers, NARC, untoggable Tag, the LB-X?

#4 Varent

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostFupDup, on 23 December 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Narc: Does very, very little for the weight investment.

Flamers: Do virtually nothing other than heat up the person who is using them, and troll the person being shot at. Rumor has it that Flamers only deal 0.2 heat per second to the target, and the heat generation on the shooter increases "exponentially" the longer its being fired.

Command Console: Does literally nothing.

LB 10-X: Less effective than the AC/10 because pinpoint damage > spread damage, every day of the week.

Small Laser: 2 of them are almost completely outclassed by 1 ML for the same weight and fewer critical slots.

Pulse Lasers: Too hot, too heavy, too short ranged, and too weak.

Jump Jets: The first jet provides a disproportionally high reward compared to additional jets added. Also, you get a lot more gains than you have to sacrifice for jets.

The maneuverability of larger mechs is arguably a bit too fast in some cases, which helps to marginalize mediums and lights (heavy/assault warrior online happens for a reason, guys, and it ain't because of lacking artificial resource limits. It's because of combat effectiveness).

Painfully slow heat dissipation disproportionally punishes energy weapons (and missiles to a lesser extent).

Hill Climb Module: Does practically nothing.

A wide variety of chassis and variants are effectively obsolete, and only a narrow set of mechs stand at the top tier.

Perfect, instant convergence. 'Nuff said.

Information Warfare is still FUBAR with the current implementations of ECM and BAP, which function primarily as on/off buttons for missiles rather than information manipulation/gathering/distorting tools.

Role Warfare is absent.


The post was regarding weapons so not gonna bother on the rest of what was stated.
Mechs as well since again the post was about weapons.
Rolls as well since the post AGAIN was about weapons.
Modules as well since, hey seeing a recuring themse here?....

Lasers are backup weapons so the whole statement regarding them is fairly nill regardless.

I addressed lbx in the autocanon section. Its balanced quite well for what it is and does. Spread is also a little nicer vs light mechs. Also the crit rate is quite nice for clean up.

View PostSybreed, on 23 December 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

yeah, things are EXTREMELY BALANCED RIGHT?

Wait, you forgot to mention flamers, NARC, untoggable Tag, the LB-X?


flamers and narc address in edit. They work for what they are meant to do. Lbx is an autocanon, addressed in the autocanon section.

#5 PanzerMagier

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:33 AM

The game is balanced for what the devs had in mind. We're not getting low heat cap high heat dissipation and PGI loves ditching good ideas left and right like toggle buttons, collision/knockdown, narcs > tags etc...

For the system the devs made and had in mind, (arguably quite a crappy balance system as pointed out by fup and syb), it's still balanced.

Yes the flamer still sucks, yes small laser and pulse lasers lackluster, yes to all the other arguable good/bad nitpicks you've got. The bottom line is the system is balanced at least on an elementary level.



The rest of you can stop reading here.





And no one dare bring up that "competitive play isn't balanced" {Scrap} because anyone with half a brain can see that PGI's balance system will never allow "competitive play" to be balanced. What works for the elitist 1% self entitled "pros" clearly does not fit with what works in general gameplay. Regular games allow you to fine tune gameplay balance at the highest level of player skill and then it will linearly trickle down to the rest of the player base like that, but not for MWO. This game's balance system is too screwed up, counter intuitive and unnecessarily complex.

#6 Mcgral18

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:40 AM

Perhaps we should mention Streaks at 2.5 damage, and SRMs at 2.0, along with the upcoming SSRM6s...

On top of guidance and a higher payload, they still get the same ammo per ton. But I forgot, they get extra Ghost heat! (the clan launchers, that is)

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 December 2013 - 09:54 AM.


#7 New Day

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostVarent, on 23 December 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

NARC - Actually works quite well in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with it. I run with a mech pilot who swears by it and its actually alot of fun to watch him run up and hit a mech with it while we all zone in on them with LRMS.

machine guns - roughly the same dps as a medium laser. no heat. weight cost of 1.5 effectively with ammo and 2 slots. Can usually get up to 2-3 machine guns per ton of ammo and do fine in a match. Good crit rate, great brawling weapon overall. great in its roll.

Flamers - They actually do overheat mechs. I dont see much point myself in runing more then about two of them. But ive successfully kept mechs shut down while ripping them apart with autocannon and missle. Its quite funny really.

Yeah... no.

And that's not even mentioning you contradicting yourself (ERPPCs), ignoring the underlying problems (UAC5s) and ignoring the problems altogether (SRMs). One more thing, the GR sucks because it's impossible to snapshot unless you hold your finger on the trigger all the time. If you don't do that by the time it charges the opportunity has passed.

You also ignored all of FupDup points regarding weapons and I don't see you mentioning the LBX anywhere.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 23 December 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#8 Varent

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:54 AM

View PostNamesAreStupid, on 23 December 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Yeah... no.

And that's not even mentioning you contradicting yourself (ERPPCs), ignoring the underlying problems (UAC5s) and ignoring the problems altogether (SRMs). One more thing, the GR sucks because it's impossible to snapshot unless you hold your finger on the trigger all the time. If you don't do that by the time it charges the opportunity has passed.

You also ignored all of FupDup points regarding weapons and I don't see you mentioning the LBX anywhere.


I did mention the lbx, its an autocannon, refer to post about autocannons. Im quite happy the gause rifle is no longer a snap shot weapon. Im my view that balanced it out and was the reason for its nerf.

Im unclear what your refering to with contradicting myself regarding erppc, explain?

I stated srms have hit reg issues. (kay?)

UAC5 are fairly amazing even with the jam rate chance, not sure what your reffering to there. I play with them regularly, if anything they are a little op.

#9 DaZur

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

I find communities premise of "balance" in its truest sense... fustrating.

I don't care how it's couched, too often it boils down to weapon "a" is disproportionately OP than weapon "B"... completely discounting the various "soft nefs / buffs" in play that manages system-level balance.

BB guns and Bazookas don't balance unless there is a soft mechanic between them to create game-mechanic balance. (read: cycle times, heat, weight, fragility and system dependencies... i.e. ammo and heatsinks.)

My larger concern is all these demands with nerfs and buffs, is the potential for loss of freedom and choice...

I want "balance" as much as anyone... but not at the cost of the the fairly open environment we largely have available to us.

#10 East Indy

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:29 AM

What people may not realize (or often forget) is that even a genre-defining game like Starcraft received fairly regular balance patches for years. Players got indulgent, developers adapted. Never-ending.

The game's in a pretty good place. Are there things I'd change if I were king? Sure, but I'm not responsible for development; I don't have all the facts or the tools, or the burden that only appears when I'm accountable. I log in and most of the time I have a lot of fun. That's what matters.

#11 Sandpit

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:31 AM

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post on this B)

#12 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:36 AM

I love LRMs and it's true that TAG defeats ECM but if you're shooting a red laser directly at someone that tells them exactly where you're at, you may as well be shooting PPC/ACs.

Never got into jumpsniping until this last weekend and it's much more efficient than LRMs (assuming you have the reflexes). There's no 1.5 ton item that shuts down direct fire weapons, as far as I know...

#13 Sybreed

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostSandpit, on 23 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post on this :rolleyes:

B)

#14 SmurfOff

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:46 AM

I'm not sure what people mean by the weapons feel balanced. If anything, the game is so heavily tilted towards Assault on Assault combat, that there is hardly any need to release more medium mechs.

A lot of the balance issues stem from two main issues. A misunderstanding of how heat should work, and too much flexibility in mech customization. This lead to genre breaking Nerfs, which make the game interesting, but not a true Battletech experience.

#15 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:47 AM

View PostSmurfOff, on 23 December 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I'm not sure what people mean by the weapons feel balanced. If anything, the game is so heavily tilted towards Assault on Assault combat, that there is hardly any need to release more medium mechs.

A lot of the balance issues stem from two main issues. A misunderstanding of how heat should work, and too much flexibility in mech customization. This lead to genre breaking Nerfs, which make the game interesting, but not a true Battletech experience.


I think someone posted somewhere a tidbit that the devs never played TT or other Battletech games. If true, this would go a long way towards explaining why the game is the way it is.

#16 Sandpit

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostLyoto Machida, on 23 December 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I think someone posted somewhere a tidbit that the devs never played TT or other Battletech games. If true, this would go a long way towards explaining why the game is the way it is.

From what I've read and heard the Devs (Russ in particular) is a huge fan of Btech, that's why he wanted to make this game

#17 x Marder x

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:53 AM

lasers:

Thris somthing wrong

Small 0.5 tons
SPulls 1.0 tons
Medium 1.0 tons
Mpulls 2.0 tons


ehem why taking a small pulls when you can have medium? Longer range more dmg. Medium shod be 1.5 tons in imho.

#18 Varent

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:57 AM

View Postx Marder x, on 23 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

lasers:

Thris somthing wrong

Small 0.5 tons
SPulls 1.0 tons
Medium 1.0 tons
Mpulls 2.0 tons


ehem why taking a small pulls when you can have medium? Longer range more dmg. Medium shod be 1.5 tons in imho.


small pulse produces less heat and has less amount of time you need to hold on target. medium has more range and damage overall.

#19 Lykaon

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:33 AM

It's not weapon balance that is the problem it's how the armor mechanics handle taking damage compared to how the armor mechanics were designed to take damage.

People are looking at the wrong side of the equation it's not the dealing damage portion that is messed up it's the taking damage part of the equation that is failing.

#20 LastPaladin

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 23 December 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Perhaps we should mention Streaks at 2.5 damage, and SRMs at 2.0, along with the upcoming SSRM6s...

On top of guidance and a higher payload, they still get the same ammo per ton. But I forgot, they get extra Ghost heat! (the clan launchers, that is)


I think they upped the streak damage because the dps of streaks is lower than regular SRMs. You have to waste time getting a lock, and then your cooldown is longer between volleys also.





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