99 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Turist0AT, on 23 December 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Yeah, tell it to new players before they leave, who are overheating all the time or energy and Pulse lovers.

CTF-4X or ILYA can murder just about any assault build. long range, no minimum range, no heat, short reload times. Not many assaults can take such a beating unless they torsotwist like mad and pinpoint damage to side torsos. Damn, its offtopic, never mind.

and you just stated your own answer right there. I myself used to run alot of laser boats, they were fun, not amazingly effective but fun. I still run two catapult as laser support boats and a battlemaster as well that way.

also those same builds die to lrms if they are caught out in the open and can be circled by many light and medium mechs that are smart and know what they are doing. most of those mechs require standing out in the open to deliver alot of there punishment. they can be taken advantage of there. Everything has a counter.

[Lyoto Machida]

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Because they are secondary weapons. Always have been. They work well in secondary weapon groups. In addition nothing to say you cant play a laser boat, but you will have heat issues and function better in a support role.

Your stating my argument is flawed because you dont like it. But that does not make it any less true. They work very well where they are at and have created a good meta. Changing them would not change anything to the current meta. Honestly you would still use the same weapons on 75% of all brawlers out there.

regarding jump sniping. Do you know how hard it is for jump snipers to evade the same amount of people with jump capability and the speed to chase them down? Its very very easy. Just work together and play smart.

Atlas have and always will be great tanks and siege breakers with arms that can absorb tons of punishment, they are great at being the first through the breach to absorb the blows and then turning to lay into an opponent while there allies follow behind them.

So if lasers are "support" weapons and LRMs are "support" weapons, then the only choice is to take ACs...makes sense considering the current state of the game.

[Varent]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

So if lasers are "support" weapons and LRMs are "support" weapons, then the only choice is to take ACs...makes sense considering the current state of the game.

LRMS make great primary weapons (when did I say they were support?). They can be abit hard to use but if you know what your doing they can be devastating. Lasers tend to be more supportive in nature though yes.

Edited by Varent, 23 December 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Turist0AT]

PGI are so funny. They made Heavy Metal that has an energy dedicated arm specificly for 3LL. Ghost Heat threashold at 2. Wow thanx PGI for nerfer a mech ppl payed money for. hihi see that gauss arm, yeah nerf it too.

[Kaldor]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

So if lasers are "support" weapons and LRMs are "support" weapons, then the only choice is to take ACs...makes sense considering the current state of the game.

Lyoto

Dont bother. This guy is so far off base it isnt worth the time. And yeah, your exactly right, lasers should take a back seat to every other direct fire weapon from his POV. I guess every mech that cant run PPCs or ACs effectively should just take a back seat?

Bad thread is bad.

[Turist0AT]

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

and you just stated your own answer right there. I myself used to run alot of laser boats, they were fun, not amazingly effective but fun. I still run two catapult as laser support boats and a battlemaster as well that way.

also those same builds die to lrms if they are caught out in the open and can be circled by many light and medium mechs that are smart and know what they are doing. most of those mechs require standing out in the open to deliver alot of there punishment. they can be taken advantage of there. Everything has a counter.

I dont follow, can you explain please. (Its getting late here so im a bit slow).

I agree that LRMs are a pain if you get cought by it. (Unless you have 2 AMS)

[Varent]

Kaldor, on 23 December 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Lyoto

Dont bother. This guy is so far off base it isnt worth the time. And yeah, your exactly right, lasers should take a back seat to every other direct fire weapon from his POV. I guess every mech that cant run PPCs or ACs effectively should just take a back seat?

Bad thread is bad.

explain why they should not?

[ratgoat]

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

explain why they should not?

Because balance? I don't even...

[Varent]

ratgoat, on 23 December 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Because balance? I don't even...

Balance has nothing to do with weapons being a support weapon. It still has its role.

No one picks up a handgun in one hand and a rifle in the other and then complains that they both dont shoot the exact same range.

They both are good for there roll and what they are designed for and useful for.

[Phromethius]

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Balance has nothing to do with weapons being a support weapon. It still has its role.

No one picks up a handgun in one hand and a rifle in the other and then complains that they both dont shoot the exact same range.

They both are good for there roll and what they are designed for and useful for.

You do realize that there are three categories of lasers in this game. Your pistol motif would be the "SMALL" laser and pulse variant. The "MEDIUM" laser is IN FACT the base line weapon. AKA the PRIMARY weapon of most of the BT universe. The "LARGE" laser is your rifle type and is intended to reach out and touch (burn the {Scrap} out of ) your enemy.

Large and Mediums are primary weapon systems for many mechs. Jenner F has 6 mediums, HBK 4P(c) comes with 9 mediums. many Heavies and Assaults come with Large lasers as there main Energy hard point. The Catapult's mediums would be considered a secondary weapon grouping since it has the tale tell "Mouse Ears" as the primary grouping. Your depiction of what you think Mechs should have is astoundingly narrow. No one is taking your argument seriously.

[Varent]

actually considering thre has already been positive feed back on many levels and the VAST VAST majority of any feed back on the threads is negative in general I would say ive hit the nail on the head.

[New Day]

Sandpit, on 23 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post on this

NO, I'M glad someone finally got the nerve to post this

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I did mention the lbx, its an autocannon, refer to post about autocannons. Im quite happy the gause rifle is no longer a snap shot weapon. Im my view that balanced it out and was the reason for its nerf.

Im unclear what your refering to with contradicting myself regarding erppc, explain?

I stated srms have hit reg issues. (kay?)

UAC5 are fairly amazing even with the jam rate chance, not sure what your reffering to there. I play with them regularly, if anything they are a little op.

SRMs: "admitedly if this is the least you have to complain about id say thats doing pretty good." No ,that's not doing pretty good because for some people they are borderline unusable and PGI has expressed no desire to fix them quickly (Russ's tweet)

UAC5: Problem is it's introducing chance into a skill based game. Might as well roll dice. You never know if it will stop working when you need it the most.

ERPPC: "omg high heat.... Not utilized much anymore just simply due to its high heat" <--> "Overall balanced for what it is when you realize its a sniping weapon" Being a sniper doesn't suddenly give you allowance to have a horrible heat efficiency and it's near impossible to run even 2 ERPPCs effectively.

GR: And that makes it useless in all situations (unless what I said).

Still don't see a mention of the LBX.
Also forgot to say the the ac/2 is bad because it spreads damage all over and requires you to keep looking at your opponent.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 23 December 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Varent, on 23 December 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

LRMS make great primary weapons (when did I say they were support?). They can be abit hard to use but if you know what your doing they can be devastating. Lasers tend to be more supportive in nature though yes.

You never did, but it's thrown around on these forum a lot...way more than lasers being a support weapon type.

I've never heard anyone referring to the energy weapon type as a support weapon though.

If anything, blame the devs (ghost heat) for making lasers a support weapon (if that really is the case).

[Varent]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 December 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

You never did, but it's thrown around on these forum a lot...way more than lasers being a support weapon type.

I've never heard anyone referring to the energy weapon type as a support weapon though.

If anything, blame the devs (ghost heat) for making lasers a support weapon (if that really is the case).

I think lrms are unpopular because people don't understand positioning a lot in this game. lrms are usually hit and miss though. Nothing to do with the actual item but more on loadouts, experience and how the teams work against one another. I think its pretty easy to see that lasers are a support weapon just judging from the 4 mechs that mwo came out with first. Every one of them was designed around ballistics missles gause or ppc some form or another. The only one that wasn't was the jenner. Keep in mind though the jenner is a light mech. Its not supposed to be devastating. It should mount supportive type weapons. Thus Medium Lasers.

[Varent]

NamesAreStupid, on 23 December 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

SRMs: "admitedly if this is the least you have to complain about id say thats doing pretty good." No ,that's not doing pretty good because for some people they are borderline unusable and PGI has expressed no desire to fix them quickly (Russ's tweet)

UAC5: Problem is it's introducing chance into a skill based game. Might as well roll dice. You never know if it will stop working when you need it the most.

ERPPC: "omg high heat.... Not utilized much anymore just simply due to its high heat" <--> "Overall balanced for what it is when you realize its a sniping weapon" Being a sniper doesn't suddenly give you allowance to have a horrible heat efficiency and it's near impossible to run even 2 ERPPCs effectively.

GR: And that makes it useless in all situations (unless what I said).

Still don't see a mention of the LBX.
Also forgot to say the the ac/2 is bad because it spreads damage all over and requires you to keep looking at your opponent.

I spoke of autocannons in the original post. the lbx is an autocannon. Its balanced for what It is and does quite well. In fact I run it on three different mechs. The ac/2 only majorly spreads damage if you fail to properly hold it on target. I usually do quite well with it. Its heat intensive but its supposed to be. Regarding erppc I run a cataphract with 2 gause rifle and one erppc, works very well for what it is. I also run a cicada with 2 erppc as well. Again works great. regarding uac, its a cost benefit weapon if you don't like it don't use it. I love mine and will continue to get over 1k damage with them and laugh while people say don't use it because it jams. regarding srms, again, hit reg is what it is. Once its dealt with they will be strong, has nothing to do with there balance as a weapon. I still use them on at least 20+ mechs and love em and do great damage and kill quite effectively.

[Rebas Kradd]

ratgoat, on 23 December 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Because balance? I don't even...

Wrong. You're talking about equalization, not balance. Weapons aren't supposed to be equalized. They're supposed to be specialized. Most people who gripe about "balance" don't have any clue what would happen to the meta if the balance they seek were achieved. It would eliminate role warfare.

And FWIW, the reason PGI is ignoring balance requests is because it makes no sense to balance a weapon whose true in-game potential is unknown because of bad hitreg. They're probably planning to fix hitreg first, THEN address balance. Makes sense.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 23 December 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Ahja]

Very vanilla and balanced. To bad its not BT or MW. I suppose 30 years of balancing that worked had to be so feverishly reworked....

[FupDup]

Ahja, on 23 December 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Very vanilla and balanced. To bad its not BT or MW. I suppose 30 years of balancing that worked had to be so feverishly reworked....

Battletech didn't spend those 30 years balancing. It didn't spend any time balancing. There was no such thing as patches to TT. When something got released, that was the end of it. The vast, vast majority of equipment in TT was not even worth using, because you had PPCs, Gauss, and ML. Almost everything else was for "flavor," i.e. total {Scrap}.

Especially bad were the original autocannons, of which only the AC/20 was even remotely acceptable (and even that had a fairly narrow niche). FASA/Catalyst/whoever's answer to half the game being sucky was to try and release new equipment that totally eclipsed (or at least attempted to) the previous stuff, i.e. all of the fancy ACs such as Ultra (if you jam, you're carrying a lot of dead weight; just use PPCs instead), LBX (situational), Rotary (jam all the time), Hyper-Velocity (which sucked balls), and Light (which were actually okay, and the LAC/5 was quite good).

Edited by FupDup, 23 December 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[Sandpit]

NamesAreStupid, on 23 December 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

NO, I'M glad someone finally got the nerve to post this



SRMs: "admitedly if this is the least you have to complain about id say thats doing pretty good." No ,that's not doing pretty good because for some people they are borderline unusable and PGI has expressed no desire to fix them quickly (Russ's tweet)

UAC5: Problem is it's introducing chance into a skill based game. Might as well roll dice. You never know if it will stop working when you need it the most.

ERPPC: "omg high heat.... Not utilized much anymore just simply due to its high heat" <--> "Overall balanced for what it is when you realize its a sniping weapon" Being a sniper doesn't suddenly give you allowance to have a horrible heat efficiency and it's near impossible to run even 2 ERPPCs effectively.

GR: And that makes it useless in all situations (unless what I said).

Still don't see a mention of the LBX.
Also forgot to say the the ac/2 is bad because it spreads damage all over and requires you to keep looking at your opponent.

Does this mean I'm google famous? The fact that it shows up that many times on google? Yea, that should tell you exactly why we don't need yet another duplicate thread on the EXACT SAME SUBJECT. ALL OF THESE DUPLICATE THREADS COULD BE POSTED IN THE SAME THREAD.

But then "my thread is special and deserves it's own title so the devs wil read it" would become up

[Kaldor]

Rebas Kradd, on 23 December 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Wrong. You're talking about equalization, not balance. Weapons aren't supposed to be equalized. They're supposed to be specialized. Most people who gripe about "balance" don't have any clue what would happen to the meta if the balance they seek were achieved. It would eliminate role warfare.

And FWIW, the reason PGI is ignoring balance requests is because it makes no sense to balance a weapon whose true in-game potential is unknown because of bad hitreg. They're probably planning to fix hitreg first, THEN address balance. Makes sense.

I agree, lasers should have a role. Inside of 500m, starting with the LL, they should be killer. But every other weapon is better at whatever role the laser could try and fill.

And yeah, hit reg issues are totally fubaring this game. Then you add in poor hitbox design, then a sprinkle of improper mech scaling and top it with a busted heat system. And we have what we have now.

Edit: PGI could have fixed this all from the start. They chose not to. They painted themselves into a corner so to speak and the only way to fix it is to almost start over.

Its very hard to prioritize what needs to be fixed as there are a few things that need definite attention, sooner rather than later.

Edited by Kaldor, 23 December 2013 - 07:45 PM.