20 replies to this topic

[SkittlesRgood]

I've been having a ton of fun in my 3l raven but I'm thinking about a heavy brawler. What do you guys think of this build?

CPLT-C4

[SkittlesRgood]

downgraded the engine and maxed out armor.

CPLT-C4

[Selfish]

I wouldn't recommend brawling in Catapults, and SRMs are pretty inconsistent to be used as a brawling weapon these days. The stated fix for their hit registration issue is next year (seriously). If you want a heavy brawler you'd be better off with direct fire builds. The Cataphract 3D (AC/20, 4x Mlas) makes for a fine brawler. It doesn't have the best hitboxes, but it makes up for this by being fast, JJ capable, and packs a punch up close.

[pbiggz]

As a long time brawler, here is my advice to you, an acolyte in our sacred close combat order.

In MWO, the best brawlers are assaults. This isn't so much a byproduct of meta as it is a byproduct of tech levels. Heavy mechs dont mount enough armor or weapons to stand toe to toe with assaults until the end of the Clan Invasion. That being said there are a few heavies that can dance with other heavy mechs well, and with support and fancy footwork they can stand up to assaults as well.

With SRMS on the backburner however, brawling is really hurting, especially in competitive drops, where snipers now take standard engines to soak the damage brawlers used to take.

The best brawlers right now are the Atlas AS7-DDC and the Orion ON1-K or Orion-Protector.

Here are a few tips on brawling.

ALWAYS run STANDARD engines. 300 for orions, and 350+ for Atlai. XL engines make you to fragile to brawl. You want your assault brawlers to be moving faster than 60 kph, and you want your heavies to move faster than 70. Top speeds effect torso twist speed, which is critical because:

DEFENSIVE TORSO TWISTING is your life blood. You must treat your arms like shields. When outside your optimal range, you simply crank to one side and force oncoming fire to take your arms first. This means that your arms should have very little firepower. Orions and atlai alike only take medium lasers on their arms. They're helpful, but you can afford to lose them, and should treat them as expendable.

Use ARTEMIS on your SRMs. Without it the spread is simply to big to be manageable.
The simplest builds for both the orion and the atlas include medium lasers, AC 20s, and Artemis SRM 6s. (atlas runs 2 ml, 1 ac20, and 3 Asrm6s, while the ON1-K runs 4 ml, 1 ac20, and 2 Asrm6s, and the Protector runs 3ml, 1 ac20, and 2 Asrm6s).

Brawlers NEVER run alone. At the very least have a sniper giving you fire support, but if you can, always have another brawler running with you.

Positioning is EVERYTHING, if you are caught in the open, your short range means you are toast. Be PATIENT, and stay under cover until either your team clears a safe path to close in on the target, or your target gets too close to you.

When in combat, maneuver around your enemy to avoid damage whilst still dealing the max amount. If it comes down to a decision on firing but taking torso damage, or not firing and defensively torso twisting, ALWAYS twist.

Brawlers do with their durability and close burst damage what snipers do with their range and high alpha, and strikers do with their speed. Remember YOUR advantages, and make sure you force the enemy to fight you on YOUR OWN terms.

[Horus XIII]

Phract 3D, faster than stock, no XL explosions, and AC/20.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8b2c3bc5ea3f3ff

[MechWarrior679696]

pbiggz, on 24 December 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

In MWO, the best brawlers are assaults. This isn't so much a byproduct of meta as it is a byproduct of tech levels. Heavy mechs dont mount enough armor or weapons to stand toe to toe with assaults until the end of the Clan Invasion. That being said there are a few heavies that can dance with other heavy mechs well, and with support and fancy footwork they can stand up to assaults as well.

My Firebrand and its 4 MLas and 2 LB10-Xes disagrees with you. You might have problems with Victors or Awesomes, but if you have a 280 engine or bigger and you can get in close and start circling you can tear almost any Assault to shreds one-on-one. It's just a matter of getting in range in the first place...

[mack sabbath]

Mr Huge, on 27 December 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

My Firebrand and its 4 MLas and 2 LB10-Xes disagrees with you. You might have problems with Victors or Awesomes, but if you have a 280 engine or bigger and you can get in close and start circling you can tear almost any Assault to shreds one-on-one. It's just a matter of getting in range in the first place...

If you're "brawling" in a Jager with an XL, I hope to brawl with you soon!

[MechWarrior679696]

Die Primate Die, on 27 December 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

If you're "brawling" in a Jager with an XL, I hope to brawl with you soon!

This ain't World of Tanks. You can't bounce shots with your armor; if something hits you, it deals damage. The optimal tactic is thus to not get hit in the first place. The Atlas and Stalker are great for firepower, but their torso twisting and tracking abilities aren't exactly legendary. You do the math.

[mack sabbath]

Selfish, on 24 December 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

I wouldn't recommend brawling in Catapults, and SRMs are pretty inconsistent to be used as a brawling weapon these days. The stated fix for their hit registration issue is next year (seriously). If you want a heavy brawler you'd be better off with direct fire builds. The Cataphract 3D (AC/20, 4x Mlas) makes for a fine brawler. It doesn't have the best hitboxes, but it makes up for this by being fast, JJ capable, and packs a punch up close.

My current version.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a018b16fe703b7e

[Tahribator]

Mr Huge, on 28 December 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

This ain't World of Tanks. You can't bounce shots with your armor; if something hits you, it deals damage. The optimal tactic is thus to not get hit in the first place. The Atlas and Stalker are great for firepower, but their torso twisting and tracking abilities aren't exactly legendary. You do the math.

Take the Protector, Cataphract 3D or Orion K build mentioned before, they will wreck one of your side torsos before you can even blow up one of their side torso. You might do well in a steamroll environment, but when a balanced brawl occurs, a brawler worth his salt will smoke your side torso in no time.

And if you're avoiding getting up close and personal, then you're not a brawler but a support mech.

[mack sabbath]

If your side is being blown up that quickly in a standard engine Phract, the mech is the least of your problems.

[MechWarrior679696]

Tahribator, on 28 December 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Take the Protector, Cataphract 3D or Orion K build mentioned before, they will wreck one of your side torsos before you can even blow up one of their side torso. You might do well in a steamroll environment, but when a balanced brawl occurs, a brawler worth his salt will smoke your side torso in no time.

And if you're avoiding getting up close and personal, then you're not a brawler but a support mech.

Brawling is about range, not about the capability to take damage. That's just a secondary, mostly useful trait. Yes, it matters in a majority of situations, but with sufficient speed and/or ballistic firepower to shake up and disorient the enemy and disable them from returning fire effectively, it takes the back seat. It's just plain logic, not a question of opinion.

If you're looking for a "balanced brawl", you're wasting your team's hitpoints and ammunition. With a heavy brawler like a properly kitted Phract or Oreo, you shouldn't go looking for mechs of equal type and layout. You should be searching out fire supports, mediums or even light mechs as they get within range, depending on your weaponry. That way you're being economical. The only way you'll get out ahead in a "balanced brawl" is if you have higher alpha (which is a gamble, and unlikely if you're running a STD for higher survivability) and/or higher weapon precision. In which case you can end the fight quickly by coring, headshotting or crippling the enemy. But you won't have gotten as many points, and in a brawler you'll most likely have taken a couple of rounds to the face, so you'll probably end up losing the next fight.

When I play a Jager, Phract or whatever, the last thing I do is try and look for opponents of the same class and loadout. Mostly I try and beat on lights, the dirty little *****, since they are the most deserving of being violated and I tend to sport either LB10s or SSRMs. Then I see who I can hit with stray shots for assists, and then finally I see if I can find a John Galt or a Pervert whom I know I can run around and punch in the kidneys.

[SkittlesRgood]

huh.... well i've been playing a lot and noticed I have enough for a DDC and just threw this together. I'm going to look at the builds you guys gave me but id like an opinion on this one just to learn a little more. pretty sure I know of a flaw with it. anyways, i figured erLL for distance, ac20 for the close range brawl, and ssrm for the lights.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b0fd065b59eca0

or this for a heavy?
[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d05d6a71b66cfc5[/smurfy]

those are more to be critiqued so I learn how to make a good mech. I do really like this build someone posted here

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e2849a9441d0b2a

Edited by SkittlesRgood, 28 December 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[MechWarrior679696]

What's with the ammo layout on that Atlas? I mean, *******. And another thing; when you have more than just two weapon groups, there is absolutely no reason not to go for 2x UAC/5 rather than that AC20. Hell, you can even cram in two LB10-Xes into that side torso and still have enough tonnage to load up fully one tenth of Meatloaf in additional weaponry. And two of those plus a couple of large lasers as initial paint strippers is not to be frowned at.

BONESTICK

Anyway, when you're trying to build a brawler in this game, one thing that you end up realizing is how desperately we need some new weapon types in this game. LB5s, snub-nose PPCs and rotary ACs for starters. More middle-weight and unique weaponry that can fill up the range- and tonnage-gaps that you end up with in almost all builds and which e.g. renders a whole lot of engines plain pointless.

And I'm not even sure that I want to give the Quickdraw a try. That thing has horrible hardpoints and is ugly as sin. But if I were to build one, I guess my first attempt at a setup would look something like this: DICKRAW

[SkkyHigh]

Atlas DDC Brawler.

AC20, Artemis SRM6s x 3, Medium Laser x 2, ECM, STD 350. Done and call it a day. The STD 350 is needed for the torso twist speed and with speed tweak makes for a swift atlas.

Walk in showing the arm then twist and blast them in the face and dont stop till they dead.

[SkittlesRgood]

Mr Huge, on 29 December 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

What's with the ammo layout on that Atlas? I mean, *******. And another thing; when you have more than just two weapon groups, there is absolutely no reason not to go for 2x UAC/5 rather than that AC20. Hell, you can even cram in two LB10-Xes into that side torso and still have enough tonnage to load up fully one tenth of Meatloaf in additional weaponry. And two of those plus a couple of large lasers as initial paint strippers is not to be frowned at.

BONESTICK

Anyway, when you're trying to build a brawler in this game, one thing that you end up realizing is how desperately we need some new weapon types in this game. LB5s, snub-nose PPCs and rotary ACs for starters. More middle-weight and unique weaponry that can fill up the range- and tonnage-gaps that you end up with in almost all builds and which e.g. renders a whole lot of engines plain pointless.

And I'm not even sure that I want to give the Quickdraw a try. That thing has horrible hardpoints and is ugly as sin. But if I were to build one, I guess my first attempt at a setup would look something like this: DICKRAW

im here for fedback, and to learn. but this line is completely useless. im trying to learn how to make a good build so telling me im wrong, without telling me whats right, or telling me what i cant have cause it's not in the game, doesn't help me much lol.

so why didnt you like ammo placement?

[MechWarrior679696]

SkittlesRgood, on 29 December 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

so why didnt you like ammo placement?

Well, that ammo you've got crammed in the torso there represents a serious risk should someone come up and crit you (something which certain close-range Jager and Phract builds are purpose-built to do) and achieve an ammo explosion. Two tons of AC20 ammo in the torso is a potential instant 280 damage which'll core you out, poof. Stuff the ammo in the legs or put it in a side torso with CASE, but for god's sake don't keep any of it in the CT. Most people tend to put it in the legs, since so very few people aim for anything but center mass. Unless you're playing a Light or a Cicada, your legs tend to be where you're hit the least.

This is also a lesson you can take to heart; if you've got the alpha and/or the crit potential (LB10s and MGs have enhanced crit chances), try to hit and run and shoot a leg out from under an assault if you've got too much armor elsewhere to chew through. This is particularly effective against Stalkers and Atlases for aforementioned reasons. Best case, you'll cook off some ammo and deal a pile of damage, particularly since people don't put CASE in the legs because they've only got two slots there. If that doesn't work straight away though, you'll severely slow some of the enemy team's most potent firepower (getting around in an Assault with one leg is a pain), and you'll have a real easy time putting yourself behind them and going to town on their rear. However, never attempt this if the guy's got backup and no one else is there to hold the other guy off for you, since this means you're going to start slowing down to keep on the Assault's ***.

Hope that was any help.

Edited by Mr Huge, 29 December 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

SkittlesRgood, on 28 December 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

huh.... well i've been playing a lot and noticed I have enough for a DDC and just threw this together. I'm going to look at the builds you guys gave me but id like an opinion on this one just to learn a little more. pretty sure I know of a flaw with it. anyways, i figured erLL for distance, ac20 for the close range brawl, and ssrm for the lights.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b0fd065b59eca0

For that DDC you do not want to have those ER lasers. They put out too much heat. To shoot them effectively from long range you will have to expose yourself for too long to enemy fire. When you are shooting your lasers the enemy will be shooting their PPCs, ACs and Gauss rifles back, and lots and lots of LRMs once the first PPC hit disables your ECM. You'll be in a world of hurt very quickly.

You also don't want the streaks. They have too little fire power and take too long to lock on. Many lights carry ECM. Your missiles are flying and hitting all over their little mech bodies, decreasing your shot effectiveness. Best way to counter them is to fit your mech with an STD 350 engine and learn to aim well.

There are numerous problems with the Atlas in the current meta, mainly because of the movement model that made their mobility complete ****. You cannot climb hills at all well and even little rocks will impede your momentum, and since your arms and weapons mounts are too low to shoot over cover and obstacles and you are a bullet magnet as far as the other team is concerned, you face the prospect of exposing yourself to withering fire without being able to move away every time you move to somewhere to shoot.

The most viable Atlas variants today are either LRMs with TAG, LL and an AC for backup (aka the biggest coward on the battlefield ), mid range dakka 2xLL, STD350, 2xUAC5 (but very team dependent), or straight out short range only brawler.

For this last one it's what SkkyHigh posted:
2xML, AC/20, 3xSRM6 with ARTEMIS. Some people will tell you the Artemis is not worth it. Don't believe them. For SRM6s on this build they are very worthwhile.

There are no other more viable variants. You can make something like 2xLPL, AC/20 work, but that is strictly inferior.

The way you use this. Well I'll just show you with a video:

Used poorly:


Used wisely:


Important points:

• Cover and concealment are your friends. Do not let the other team spot you or target you until you are within your own optimum engagement rage (280 m or whatever the max range of SRMs are).
  
• Low heat: Alpha - torso twist - repeat
  
• Heat nearing max: AC - Missiles - ML - torso twist - repeat
  
• Heat critical: AC/20 or missiles - torso twist - repeat
  
• Do not engage on steep downhill or uphill slope out of range or torso elevations
  
• Slowdown to almost a stop before rounding a corner or peaking over a hill - you will not be able to stop in time otherwise
  
• When confronted with lights, back up, torso twist, and shoot with missiles and ACs
  
• Beware of PPCs at all times - they will disable ECM and every LRM boat on the other team will try to rain on your parade
  
• Similarly, beware of TAG. You are usually the number one target for someone carrying one.
  
• Patience is key. If there are not good engagement opportunities or obvious tactical moves, you can always stick around near your teammates, out of sight, and provide ECM coverage!

Hope this helps!

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 29 December 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[SkittlesRgood]

alright, i bought the ddc, but I also bought an lrm boat before it so it'll take a while to get the cash for the engine and other goodies. i do have the ac20, 2xml, and srm6x3 (arti waiting for cash) and score around 500 damage each game. getting used to hanging back a little and not having the speed to get myself out of trouble, like my raven does lol.

ooh, just did 920 damage and took out two other atlases

[JigglyMoobs]

GJ keep it up trooper!