147 replies to this topic

[Serpentbane]

http://youtu.be/ry4cicee1vI?t=27s
http://youtu.be/ry4cicee1vI?t=6m15s
http://youtu.be/ry4cicee1vI?t=10m7s

For some reason I'm not able to embed these...

00:27 Round 1: PPC + ML
06:15 Round 2: LL + ML
10:07 Round 3: AC10 + AC5

Open a new window for each round placed side by side to compare.

This is a comparison between energy and balistic weapons in Mecwarrior online as they are today. In their work to balance the game, PGI has in my opinion destroyed energy weapons, making balistic oriented platforms superioir over energy.

In this runtrough I used the same mech, and three setups with weapons dealing the same amount of damage at each shot. To simulate battle, I ran the same cource three times with some weapons Sway to simulate actual gameplay, but I also tried to make each round as simmilar as possible, shooting at the same general area of each mech.

I had some issues with my recording software, but pay atention to heat build ups and shutdowns, and also the time used on the mission timer. Not only do the balistic build run the cource a lot faster, 3:20 compared to 6:30 and 5:30, it does so with no heat issues.

Now, the LL + ML build is similar to AC10 + AC5 regarding heat, but it's a lot less effective. Also, with the balistic build I can ad more weapons with no heat issues, but with the energy build this would also in most cases lead to Ghost Heat issues on top of the fact that the player also would have to remove heat sinks to fit more weapons.

So, I'm having trouble seing how the game is more balanced compared to a few months ago, before GH and nerfing of energy weapons.

Edited by Serpentbane, 25 December 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[Sandpit]

Yay, another ballistics thread!
http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/
http://mwomercs.com/...w-with-weapons/
http://mwomercs.com/...rs-misslewaste/
http://mwomercs.com/...weapon-balance/
http://mwomercs.com/...r-jumpjet-ppcs/
http://mwomercs.com/...27-gauss-rifle/
http://mwomercs.com/...-of-ac-weapons/
http://mwomercs.com/...vs-ecm-balance/
http://mwomercs.com/...-jump-ppc-jump/

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, the stats are different there compared to a live match, and every enemy is stock.

But here:



it can embed, but not with a 'start at' time.

[YueFei]

Um, you realize AC10+AC5 weighs 20 tons before you put any ammo in, right?

PPC+ML is 8 tons. LL+ML is only 6 tons. Did you realize you can use that extra tonnage to shove in a bigger engine and go faster, put in jump jets to jump higher, put in other gear like BAP or AMS, etc? Use your higher speed to engage on your terms, instead of just charging at enemies staring at them until one of you dies?

You can't analyze these things in a vacuum, you have to put it into context.

[Sandpit]

No one on the "ballistics are op" bandwagon ever takes into account those trade-offs. They either ignore them entirely or "argue" that those trade-offs don't count because (insert whatever reason here)

[Gigastrike]

Now make a video comparing an AC/5 to 8 medium lasers.

[soft target]

It's true that energy weapons don't have the sprint quality of Autocannons or Missiles but the later ones will run out of ammor in a longer match, so when you put a AC5 Ultra into your Mech you have to consider the ammount of Ammo you want to take along with it.

1t ? you will be out fast and than all you have are just 9ts of junk you carry around.

I have AC 20 on one of my mechs an I just upgraded from 4to 6 tons of ammo as I allways seemed to run out of shells when I needed them the most.
So thats 20 tons now, just think about what I could get for that.

Edited by soft target, 25 December 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Sandpit]

soft target, on 25 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

It's true that energy weapons don't have the sprint quality of Autocannons or Missiles but the later ones will run out of ammor in a longer match, so when you put a AC5 Ultra into your Mech you have to consider the ammount of Ammo you want to take along with it.

1t ? you will be out fast and than all you have are just 9ts of junk you carry around.

I have AC 20 on one of my mechs an I just upgraded from 4to 6 tons of ammo as I allways seemed to run out of shells when I needed them the most.
So thats 20 tons now, just think about what I could get for that.

4 LLs

[Mordin Ashe]

It is not like trade offs aren't being accounted for, but in the current game disadvantages of ballistics weight much easily on one's shoulders than taking energy weapons. Right now ballistics are clearly supperior, and it is up to devs how they will fix it.

[kapusta11]

The fact that energy weapons suck does not make ballistics OP.

Change heat system to high dissipation low cap, make energy weapons heat cooldown lower then the stated one and then bam! Now there is the point in mounting several lasers etc (they weight as much as ACs in this case). to bypass recycle times and they fire as fast as ballistics.

Edited by kapusta11, 25 December 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Noesis]

This is what I don't get either. It only takes a subtle improvement to heat handling for lasers in order for them to be more helpful in providing alternative play styles with more effectiveness on a par to the dominant ballistic Meta.

I think so many snipers are simply running scared that as a result there might be the possibility of other effective game styles that may then be able to act as an effective counter to the Sniper game play we see today. Improved diversity then not ideally encouraging new FOTM but simply having more of a considered range of game play styles that are on a par in terms of effectiveness.

But most people asking for consideration to other game play seems to be a problem even if this is the very essence of game play balance.

I have championed trying to improve energy weapons and fix SRMs with just subtle changes previously to bring them more into line without just reaching for the nerf hammer. But I could see PGI simply adopting this approach if people don't want to placate the short game or other play styles. This since given the recognised dominance with pinpoint ballistics something has to be done to restore options. I could see ballistic nerfs in the future and/or change in mechanics to see burst fire.

And with UAC possibilities on the horizon with clan tech and possibly IS versions PGI will have to do something about it. Can you imagine how OP UAC20 could be in this current meta for example?

[Sandpit]

f you notice? In all of the "op, broken, up, etc." threads? It's the same 20 or so players posting the same exact posts over and over and over and over again, with a few new players here and there once in a while giving their opinions.

PGI, please just know that not everyone (and judging by just about every single poll these players posting this kinda stuff have ever posted) agrees that the isn't balanced

Lasers = good place right now
ballistics = good place right now
heat = good place right now
SRMs = could use a look at hit registration

The game, overall, is very well-balanced at the moment. Please do not continue implementing easy buttons for those that simply cannot or will not adjust. Those of us that actually look for a challenging game appreciate where the game is now.

[Tezcatli]

My recommendations for balance. Increase heat dissipation and reduce heat cap. Reduce the heat of medium lasers by .5 to give them more wiggle room in a brawl.

SRM hit detection is obviously not working as it should. Could it be possible to give them a larger explosive radius? But prevent it from dealing damage to multiple sections so they're not overpowered as in the LRM apocalypse. I suppose this would make them less reliable as they might not hit the desired location.

Pulse weapons are another close in weapon. But the extra weight, heat, and shorter range make them a very specialized weapons. Only people who like their particular attributes use them. A reduction in heat and a slight increase in range would be nice. Others have suggested giving them a more machine gun like effect.

The other thing is that ECM is a very hard counter to LRMs. That forces anyone using LRMs to equip tag, which can be negated by ECM anyway. Narc is also easily negated by ECM, even if it wasn't, it doesn't work very to begin with. If one team doesn't have ECM and the other does. LRMs become near worthless for that team.

[Biglead]

I remember when I was at the bottom of the Elo, crushin noobs and recording it as factual evidence for game balance.

Edited by Biglead, 25 December 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

f you notice? In all of the "op, broken, up, etc." threads? It's the same 20 or so players posting the same exact posts over and over and over and over again, with a few new players here and there once in a while giving their opinions.

PGI, please just know that not everyone (and judging by just about every single poll these players posting this kinda stuff have ever posted) agrees that the isn't balanced

Lasers = good place right now
ballistics = good place right now
heat = good place right now
SRMs = could use a look at hit registration

The game, overall, is very well-balanced at the moment. Please do not continue implementing easy buttons for those that simply cannot or will not adjust. Those of us that actually look for a challenging game appreciate where the game is now.

Say What? Heat... Good place? Not only No.

Otherwise, good post sir.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 December 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Say What? Heat... Good place? Not only No.

Otherwise, good post sir.

I like the ghost heat mechanic. I think it does what in was intended to do. Would I love my lasers to produce less in heat penalties? Of course I would. That means I could pew pew pew with a 7 LL Bmaster with impunity and destroy the game balance. That's not good for the game and balancing though. SO, no, it shouldnt' be done in my opinion

[Turist0AT]

with balistics you pay with your speed and ammo dependence for that firepower. What, you laser men get to run fast and murder us? no way.

[Sandpit]

Turist0AT, on 25 December 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

with balistics you pay with your speed and ammo dependence for that firepower. What, you laser men get to run fast and murder us? no way.

If the ones asking for this kind of balance got their way, I promise you that you'd REALLY hate seeing my energy boats on the field.

[Noesis]

Ghost heat is useful for reducing high alpha builds.

Heat issues aren't however useful for helping to balance more managed builds with more effective use of less damage per volley over time. This since heat is boosted for lasers anyhow with less heat dissipation capabilities even with an increased ceiling.

Hence the idea of making lasers 3.5 instead of 4 to provide confidence to short game. Especially when remembering that they should be 3 as per the BT precedent and without beam mechanics or dissipation nerfs. Smaller mechs with limited weapon options suffer due to this and only need a subtle change to help every platform use these weapons since not only lighter Mechs can fit them as needs. This especially when SRMs are fubbared and lighter mechs need to perform at faster speeds. Or in the case of some mediums who already struggle with sustained DPS due to their relative fragility being oversized against pinpoint ballistics.

[Serpentbane]

For starters, I never said balistics were OP. In my opinion energy weapons are nerfed to much, or heat penalties are to high.

I have lots of mechs, and ammo are rarely a big issue on balistic builds for me. Yes, you can burn trough your ammo, but then you shold have atleast 500+ dmg on heavier mechs too. AKA, you've done your share that round. Head to head, balistic builds are more likely to come out on top as they have no heat issues, the fire rappidly, and they generate screen shake.

Also, weight is also less of an issue as the Jaeger can fit 2xAC20, 3XUAC5 or 4XAC5, and we have CTF +++ builds as well.

Now, there are some sugested advantages of lasers in this thread, but the maps and goals of the game does not complie with these sugestions as most games are drop in the middle of the heat kind of games, unless you want to be that fool capping.

4xAC5 Jaegers are slow, but it does not matter, they deal so much damage in a short time, that a slightly faster energy build in reality have little advantages. Exeptions are ultra fast lights that's "impossible" to hit regardles of loadout. Also, running heavy and assault energybuilds this high speed thing is not an option anyways.

One could ask, why are the AWS-8Q ever built?
And what are PGI planing to do with Clan mechs and ER variants that should drop in by then?

Every weapon platform should have advantages and drawbacks, but in this case the drawbacks are to huge. Assaults should be able to make scrap metal of lesser mechs if they get them in sights.