106 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Not sure if these poll questions suck or not. I'll change them if they need changing. Basically, I want to know which medium mechs people consider the best ones. And it might be hard to agree on the overall best medium mech, as people use them for different things. You don't play the Cicada like you play the Shadowhawk.

Right now, a lot of people are playing the Shadowhawk, and I'm not sure if they feel it's the best mech or if it's simply because it's new and shiny, with a C-bill bonus.

[Bishop Steiner]

Best overall, is hands down the ShadowHawk. It can do everything, save ECM, and do it well. It shines best when not over or under-engined, and not overspecialized, IMO, but it can do everything from Triple-2 or Gauss Sniping to AC20 brawling.

About the only 2 times that other mediums out do the SHD is when you need ECM, or as a Light Hunter, where the 5xSSRM Kintaro still does it better, and without giving up so much potential (since it doesn't have near the capabilities anyhow) that the Shad does to be put into that role. And even then, the Shad is number 2 at it.

Hard to admit something is better than my Cents or Hunchies, but it is true.

[Deathlike]

I think the Shadowhawk is the best across the board (and voted as such).

It might not be a better Kintaro in terms of Streaks, and the SH is tall, but it is harder to take down as you can kinda run it like a Centurion. The weaponry on the arms are simply limited to energy and are not the most threatening... so you can use it as a shield as needed.

In sum, the Shaqhawk is the best medium mech fielded as of this moment.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 October 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 25 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Right now, a lot of people are playing the Shadowhawk, and I'm not sure if they feel it's the best mech or if it's simply because it's new and shiny, with a C-bill bonus.

Well, the one with the cbill bonus is the one I run the least. my 5M and 2D2 are beasts.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

or as a Light Hunter, where the 5xSSRM Kintaro still does it better, and without giving up so much potential (since it doesn't have near the capabilities anyhow) that the Shad does to be put into that role. And even then, the Shad is number 2 at it.

I'd argue that the 4x SSRM2 + AC/10 Shadowhawk is a far more capable light hunter than the 5xSSRM2 Kintaro when piloted well.

Streaks alone aren't actually as effective in downing lights as single shot burst damage weapons. The weakness of the 5xSSRM2 Kintaro is twofold. One is that it can be kited at 270m+ range by lights. Two is that it is worthless in long range engagements and brawls against heavier mechs.

The SSRM+AC/10 Shadowhawk gains the range of the AC/10 which keeps it as a threat to lights at a distance farther than the lights can shoot back. The AC/10 makes it able to do at least something in long-range standoffs. And chaining the streaks with the AC/10 keeps it viable when brawling against large assaults.

It can also go almost as fast as the light hunter Kintaro.

It also has jump jets, meaning that it's just that much harder for a light pilot to evade.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'd argue that the 4x SSRM2 + AC/10 Shadowhawk is a far more capable light hunter than the 5xSSRM2 Kintaro when piloted well.

Streaks alone aren't actually as effective in downing lights as single shot burst damage weapons. The weakness of the 5xSSRM2 Kintaro is twofold. One is that it can be kited at 270m+ range by lights. Two is that it is worthless in long range engagements and brawls against heavier mechs.

The SSRM+AC/10 Shadowhawk gains the range of the AC/10 which keeps it as a threat to lights at a distance farther than the lights can shoot back. The AC/10 makes it able to do at least something in long-range standoffs. And chaining the streaks with the AC/10 keeps it viable when brawling against large assaults.

It can also go almost as fast as the light hunter Kintaro.

It also has jump jets, meaning that it's just that much harder for a light pilot to evade.

If you are going to hunt lights, trade that ac for an LB.

The Shad, to add that, sacrifices the speed the StreakTaro has. Without the speed, it is not as good a "Hunter" though running with a 280XL and 4 SSRM racks, 2 mediums and a ballistic of choice, it becomes a great Light Defender, aka escort mech, capable of fighting all ranges and sizes. But it's not as good a dedicated hunter.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

The Blackjack variants with jump jets are extremely underrated.

The BJ-1 can run an AC20 at almost 90kph. Only the YLW is faster, and it doesn't jump. The -1 or -3 can also both run 2xPPCs at that same speed with jump jets, and there is nothing else that can do that. Even the variants without jj's benefit from those high-mounted arms.

I'm seeing more and more of them around lately- some people are starting to "get it"-, the little BJ punches way above it's weight.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

If you are going to hunt lights, trade that ac for an LB.

The Shad, to add that, sacrifices the speed the StreakTaro has. Without the speed, it is not as good a "Hunter" though running with a 280XL and 4 SSRM racks, 2 mediums and a ballistic of choice, it becomes a great Light Defender, aka escort mech, capable of fighting all ranges and sizes. But it's not as good a dedicated hunter.

The light hunter Shadow Hawk uses a 330XL or higher.

The LBX is a far inferior weapon for killing lights than an AC/10. You may hit the light more, but it will be insignificant damage. What lights fear are PPCs (ER and normal) and ACs higher than AC2s.

Any decent light pilot will agree with that.

You want to do as much of your damage as possible with a single shot (and not 10) because you likely aren't going to hit the same place consistently and destroying any component on a light will severely cripple and/or kill it.

The LBX also becomes completely laughable against lights (and anything else) at longer ranges.

They're only better than regular ACs if you have problems hitting a light in the first place.

In any case, a good light hunter also needs to be a good mech in general. It isn't worth much to be a light hunter if you can't even attempt any other role. You'll never be as fast as a light, so they can always opt to ignore you until you're vulnerable. Hell, a lance of AMS Lights can down a lance of Streak Kintaros. We've done it enough times to assume we come out of those engagements winning.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Risko Vinsheen]

I still feel like my Yen-Lo-Wang is my best brawler overall but the Shadow Hawk has definitely proven itself to be a beast. I typically use it to scrap off armor at range with the autocannon or (in my 5M's case) gauss rifle and focus my Streaks against lights who wander too close.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

The light hunter Shadow Hawk uses a 330XL or higher.

The LBX is a far inferior weapon for killing lights than an AC/10. You may hit the light more, but it will be insignificant damage. What lights fear are PPCs (ER and normal) and ACs higher than AC2s.

Any decent light pilot will agree with that.

You want to do as much of your damage as possible with a single shot (and not 10) because you likely aren't going to hit the same place consistently and destroying any component on a light will severely cripple and/or kill it.

The LBX also becomes completely laughable against lights (and anything else) at longer ranges.

They're only better than regular ACs if you have problems hitting a light in the first place.

to shoo horn in a 330 XL, leaves you either light on armor with an ac10, or dangerously light on ammo, and without lasers. Which do you prefer? As with close to max armor, you have exactly 3 tons left for ammo.

Since you have already conceded the speed battle to any light, and by a good 10 kph to the Kintaro, more sensible would be to stop trying to be Usain Bolt in the first place, and have a good balanced loadout like this
SHD-2D2

I mean, I only run a 5/1 KDr in it, but hey, it's still a new mech.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 October 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

to shoo horn in a 330 XL, leaves you either light on armor with an ac10, or dangerously light on ammo, and without lasers. Which do you prefer?

Without Lasers. You don't need them. You have streaks and an AC/10.

2 tons of streak ammo. 3 tons of AC/10 ammo. You may run dry in some pug games, but they'll last 12-mans if you play smart.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Krivvan]

The Light Hunter Shadow Hawk (that can also snipe and take on heavier mechs to an appreciable extent)

If ammo is ever a concern, one can downgrade to an 320XL and take one more ton of AC/10 ammo. Or drop from 2 tons of streaks to 1 ton in favour of another ton of AC/10 ammo.

Taking lasers on that mech is a mistake.

What's going to really kill lights is that AC/10, not the streaks. Land just one or two good hits with that AC/10 and watch the light freak out and run and/or finish it off with a couple streak salvos to destroy the damaged component.

In a sniping phase of a match, count the enemy mechs and determine how many lights they have. Then figure out how many rounds of AC/10 you're willing to spend sniping.

When brawling against a heavier mech, chain fire all 4 streaks and fire the AC/10 after the 4 in a rhythm to keep up the shaking. Focus all the AC/10 rounds into a single component.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Without Lasers. You don't need them. You have streaks and an AC/10.

2 tons of streak ammo. 3 tons of AC/10 ammo. You may run dry in some pug games, but they'll last 12-mans if you play smart.

cool, so 2 tons light on armor, and with no backup weapons, with the danger minimum loadout of ammo for the weapon systems. So eeasily without any offensive capability. Yeah, sorry if I pass, but I will. Especially since that format also has no room for BAP, so any ecm and your weapons are down to a single ac10, or are you running your Shad 3.5 tons light on armor?

Not looking to be a jerk, but that build has made too many compromises to try to do something this does better already
KTO-18

As Large Lasers are also better for sweeping legs when the lovely hit registry decides to ****** up.

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

The Light Hunter Shadow Hawk (that can also snipe and take on heavier mechs to an appreciable extent)

If ammo is ever a concern, one can downgrade to an 320XL and take one more ton of AC/10 ammo. Or drop from 2 tons of streaks to 1 ton in favour of another ton of AC/10 ammo.

Taking lasers on that mech is a mistake.

What's going to kill lights is that AC/10, not the streaks.

Not taking BAP is a bigger mistake, as is losing the firepower of the lasers, and endurance, when ammo runs out, for a questionable, at best, addiction to speed.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

cool, so 2 tons light on armor, and with no backup weapons, with the danger minimum loadout of ammo for the weapon systems. So eeasily without any offensive capability. Yeah, sorry if I pass, but I will. Especially since that format also has no room for BAP, so any ecm and your weapons are down to a single ac10, or are you running your Shad 3.5 tons light on armor?

Lights don't run ECM as much as before. And like I said, the AC10 is a complete light killer. The streaks are optional. If you're paranoid enough to want BAP, then dropping the engine down to an XL320 or XL310 is an option.

It's also 2 tons light mostly on the arms. You're not supposed to just look at how much total tonnage of armour a mech has. You need to see how it is placed.

And backup weapons generally make for bad mech designs. You don't want a weapon that's only function is "just in case." That's the kind of thinking that gave the Awesome and Hunchback their useless small lasers in their heads.

And like I said, the Streak Kintaro is far too easily countered by good light pilots. It can be kited and is useless at range.

And lasers are the worst weapons for destroying lights. They're only good if you literally are unable to hit them with PPCs and Ballistics. You don't sweep lasers across lights to damage them. You have to focus the laser on them. Otherwise you're going to be spending minutes doing negligible damage to a spider or something. You're better off firing high damage burst shots until one connects.

If you really want to use that ERLL Streak Kintaro, then you're better off with a 2LL (or ERLL) + AC/10 Shadow Hawk.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Lights don't run ECM as much as before. And like I said, the AC10 is a complete light killer. The streaks are optional. If you're paranoid enough to want BAP, then dropping the engine down to an XL320 or XL310 is an option.

And backup weapons generally make for bad mech designs. You don't want a weapon that's only function is "just in case."

And like I said, the Streak Kintaro is far too easily countered by good light pilots. It can be kited and is useless at range.

ER Large Laser is quite useful at range. And as much a fan as I am of the ac10, thinking a barely adequate ammo loaded ac10 as the ultimate light solution...... yeah, not buying. And anything heavier would laugh at your streaks and destroy you before your Ac10 bails you out. About the only time you see non ecm lights are trial spiders, and good lucking consistently tagging them with your ac10 before your ammo runs dry.

But hey, by all means,run it how you like. I just know that my Shad will take yours 1v1 every single time, and acts as a great anti light escort, and can outfight most mechs heavier than it.

That's what Shads do. Everything. Not overreach and overspecialize.

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

If you really want to use that ERLL Streak Kintaro, then you're better off with a 2LL (or ERLL) + AC/10 Shadow Hawk.

Actually, I do run 2 LL and an ac10 on my 5M. Great medium range sniper. Crappy anti-Light mech overall though.

[KhanHeir]

a poll that lists a newly released mech the size of an assault as victor in every category?


ONE JOB GOLDS ONE JOB.

[Bishop Steiner]

KhanHeir, on 25 October 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

a poll that lists a newly released mech the size of an assault as victor in every category?


ONE JOB GOLDS ONE JOB.

Since you ain't run one, you ain't qualified to comment, really, are ya?

It's tall. Has a hunch too. Darn thing won't go away even if you don't have an ac.

Yet it's fast, has JJs, can lay out wicked hurt (when someone builds it correctly), and tanks damage like an Assault. Runs XL engines with zero issue, had massive arms to soak damage, and usually is stripped naked before they do die.

Don't let ShadowHawk envy make you petulant. You can be one of the cool kids too, next month.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

ER Large Laser is quite useful at range. And as much a fan as I am of the ac10, thinking a barely adequate ammo loaded ac10 as the ultimate light solution...... yeah, not buying. And anything heavier would laugh at your streaks and destroy you before your Ac10 bails you out. About the only time you see non ecm lights are trial spiders, and good lucking consistently tagging them with your ac10 before your ammo runs dry.

I'm heavily specialized as a light pilot. I know very well what hurts light mechs and what doesn't. Light pilots are afraid of snipers. Try playing round after round against people like Steel Jag where you get consistently one-shotted after only a moment in their line of sight if you get complacent.

The only lights that are run in competitive matches are Jenners, Ravens, and the occasional spider. The Jenners far moreso than the Ravens. And the Ravens are always 2xERLL Ravens that you wouldn't use streaks for in the first place.

You're not supposed to be shooting constantly with the AC/10. You pick your one or two aimed snapshots and it's over.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

KhanHeir, on 25 October 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

a poll that lists a newly released mech the size of an assault as victor in every category?


ONE JOB GOLDS ONE JOB.

I haven't tried the SHD, and I'm not sure if I will or not, but people seem to be liking them.

I also thought they looked huge the first time I saw one in game, but they aren't the pushovers I thought they'd be.

Contender for "best medium" though? I'd have to say "nay"; but that's at least partially because I see so many builds reliant on streaks, and I personally don't like using streaks. I'm happy that others are happy with theirs though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 25 October 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I haven't tried the SHD, and I'm not sure if I will or not, but people seem to be liking them.

I also thought they looked huge the first time I saw one in game, but they aren't the pushovers I thought they'd be.

Contender for "best medium" though? I'd have to say "nay"; but that's at least partially because I see so many builds reliant on streaks, and I personally don't like using streaks. I'm happy that others are happy with theirs though.

just because you don't like something, doesn't make it ineffective.

SSRMs are common now primarily for 2 reasons, 1) they are still better against lights in most cases than SRMs and 2) because SRM damage/hit registration is questionable at best.

As for LRMs, there are much beter chassis, and weight classes to be the LRMboat. And as you can tell form some builds on here, while carrying them, are far from reliant. Tis a reason I generally carry a single ton of ammo for 4 ssrms, which would be way too little as a featured system. Because the UAC and lasers do the heavy lifting where the ssrms are partly for anti-Light deterrent, and as a coup de grace on already damaged mechs.

I can say safely, that in my Shad, I am more than comfortable being able to take any other medium in the game. And most heavies, and several assaults. Do tend to have to stay leery of BoomJagers though, as one lucky shot ruins almost anythings day, and of VTRs because they do have some pretty solid mobility of their own, along with a WHOLE lot more firepower.