Jump to content

Have You Been Told That A Medium Mech Is Not Welcome In The Team ?


242 replies to this topic

#201 WVAnonymous

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 1,691 posts
  • LocationEvery world has a South Bay. That's where I am.

Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:08 PM

I was going to use this in the "carry harder" thread, but I think it supports the usefulness of medium mechs.

Posted Image

#202 Molossian Dog

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,393 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:31 PM

I´ll give reasoning a last chance.

------------------------------

Myomes, numbers are just one of the factors of a battle.
Time and space are other, equal factors.

Mediums can disengage. Assaults and many heavies not.

Making use of that might not always show in the damage or K/D stats. Stop looking for it there. You find it in the Win/Loss ratio.

------------------------------

If you were inclined to point out that Lights can disengage too, this is true. But your own words point out the value of Mediums. By your logic heavier mechs automatically beat lighter Mechs. So while both classes have the "disengage" ability, Mediums have the additional "kill Lights" ability.
Advantage Mediums.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 January 2014 - 05:33 PM.


#203 Myomes

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 318 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:33 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 05 January 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

I don't accept "tasks" from random forum posters - much less posters who have ignored my reasoning to simply repeat their debunked claims in slightly varied language.  Nice try, though.  I especially liked how you invoked an unmeasurable variant to qualify your "test."  Fact up, or shut up - you've trolled here long enough.
well, sunshine, the fact is, none of your "fact laden" (read: fictitious and unsubstantiated) posts have been any counter to my original arguments, so the onus is really on you.

#204 Myomes

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 318 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM

View PostMolossian Dog, on 05 January 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I´ll give reasoning a last chance.

------------------------------

Myomes, numbers are just one of the factors of a battle.
Time and space are other, equal factors.

Mediums can disengage. Assaults and many heavies not.

Making use of that might not always show in the damage or K/D stats. Stop looking for it there. You find it in the Win/Loss ratio.

------------------------------

If you were inclined to point out that Lights can disengage too, this is true. But your own words point out the value of Mediums. By your logic heavier mechs automatically beat lighter Mechs. So while both classes have the "disengage" ability, Mediums have the additional "kill Lights" ability.
Advantage Mediums.
your disengagement theory only matters when someone runs ahead of the group or otherwise isolates themselves, at which point they will be outgunned and it makes sense to "disengage". that hasn't put any holes in the concept that a well formed group of 12 100 tonners have double armor and double guns, and therefore are statistically the group who will win every time, especially if they play smart. Mediums rely on enemy weakness to succeed.Answer me this: Why are there weight divisions in every martial sport? How come someone 150 lb isnt matched up to someone 250 lb in boxing or any other bloodlust sport? Maybe because in an enclosed space, speed means nothing?

#205 ColdPsyker1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 243 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:47 PM

Well, just had a game where I got 1040 damage, 4 kills, and 3 assists. And I was in a Hunchback 4P, so I did not use an AC/20 to "artificially inflate my damage figures". Although I am sure a certain poster will just claim that I was noob stomping because my ELO is low (my W/L is 1.11).

Also, does anyone know how to upload images? I really want to upload the screencap of this, as pics or it didn't happen

#206 Bhelogan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Boombox
  • The Boombox
  • 328 posts
  • LocationGeorgia

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:00 PM

View PostColdPsyker1, on 05 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Well, just had a game where I got 1040 damage, 4 kills, and 3 assists. And I was in a Hunchback 4P, so I did not use an AC/20 to "artificially inflate my damage figures". Although I am sure a certain poster will just claim that I was noob stomping because my ELO is low (my W/L is 1.11).

Also, does anyone know how to upload images? I really want to upload the screencap of this, as pics or it didn't happen

I use photobucket, but there are lots of sites that will host your photos.

But, to the argument of 12 assaults vs 12 mediums, in the current meta. Given 12 equal pilots on both sides, and the current meta, i would probably still go with the mediums, and for one reason. Air/Artillery strikes. If the assaults stay grouped up, they will get pounded to death by these. If they split up to avoid it,they will get picked off in smaller groups. ideally though, you want a mix of both in you team to fill all roles.

#207 Fang01

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fury
  • Fury
  • 993 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:00 PM

View PostColdPsyker1, on 05 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Well, just had a game where I got 1040 damage, 4 kills, and 3 assists. And I was in a Hunchback 4P, so I did not use an AC/20 to "artificially inflate my damage figures". Although I am sure a certain poster will just claim that I was noob stomping because my ELO is low (my W/L is 1.11).

Also, does anyone know how to upload images? I really want to upload the screencap of this, as pics or it didn't happen


you need a third party hosting site like postimage.org

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

your disengagement theory only matters when someone runs ahead of the group or otherwise isolates themselves, at which point they will be outgunned and it makes sense to "disengage". that hasn't put any holes in the concept that a well formed group of 12 100 tonners have double armor and double guns, and therefore are statistically the group who will win every time, especially if they play smart. Mediums rely on enemy weakness to succeed.Answer me this: Why are there weight divisions in every martial sport? How come someone 150 lb isnt matched up to someone 250 lb in boxing or any other bloodlust sport? Maybe because in an enclosed space, speed means nothing?


What a poor, uninformed analogy.

#208 Vanguard319

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,420 posts
  • LocationTerra

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

View PostTimePeriod, on 29 December 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

In the end after all is said and done, it comes down to two things. Tonnage and tactics.

Tonnage cannot beat tactics as tactics cannot beat tonnage. A compromise must be made as one side cannot defeat the other, thus we must mix both light, medium, heavy and assault classes to find the optimum tonnage and tactical value for the given scenario. It is simple as that.

Tonnage can be beaten by tactics and vice versa. The real issue is which side makes better use of it's assets and makes better use of tactics. I've been playing since closed beta, and I've seen my fair share of matches where a squad of lights just steamrolled all challengers, I've also seen Fatlas armies plow through their opponents with impunity like they were a joke. Likewise, I've seen groups with mostly LRM boats fail because the team had no scouts to spot targets with, and you do need some competent scouts in order to make the most of those boats.

Pugs are at a disadvantage since most play as individuals rather than as a unit. The only successful pugs I've seen are the ones that communicate, and assist each other.

Edited by Vanguard319, 05 January 2014 - 06:34 PM.


#209 Molossian Dog

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,393 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:23 PM

You set artifical prerequisites and then try to proof something under these prerequisites.

Your theory relies on Skirmish-only. And here you would be completely right if all 24 Mechs were all fighting in one room, all were shooting all the time and at the same time, accuracy is equal besides the differences in speed and size of targets and no terrain or team mates ever block lines of sight.

Practice has taught me this is seldomly the case, though.

----------------------------------------------------

Let´s take a look on the individual points you try to make.

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

...that hasn't put any holes in the concept that a well formed group of 12 100 tonners have double armor and double guns...

Absolutely right. These are the numbers I spoke of. You are forgetting time and space though.

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

...and therefore are statistically the group who will win every time...

Absolutely wrong. Statistically speaking the side with many guns/mechs shooting at fewer hostile Mechs for most of the game time wins. If you are more mobile you can force engagements where you shoot with many Mechs at few of the enemy.
And this is not even mentioning cap wins.


View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

your disengagement theory only matters when someone runs ahead of the group or otherwise isolates themselves...

Untrue. The battle doesn´t take place under lab conditions. Simply having to pass obstacles or get LOS to your taregt makes a difference. Deploying behind a chokepoint enforces at least temporary numerical superiority. Mediums can disengage when they start to loose that superiority and move to the next chokepoint. If you assume a hive mind like coordination of your assault company you have to assume the same for the opposition.

And again, I am leaving aside "soft factors" like caps and using caps to force the Assault company to move, or areas where only mediums can go and Assault not, Mediums willingly wasting time or kiting slower enemies, differences in artillery efficiency and many more.

Quote

Answer me this: Why are there weight divisions in every martial sport? How come someone 150 lb isnt matched up to someone 250 lb in boxing or any other bloodlust sport? Maybe because in an enclosed space, speed means nothing?
Because it is sport not battle. It is deliberatedly taking place in an artifical lab like enviroment (1 vs 1, no ganging up on someone, no terrain etc.) which you take as granted for a battle. To even make such a comparison shows what narrow prerequisites your theory requires to work.

------------------------

What I am trying to tell you is that from a math point of view you may be right. But there is more to a battle than math.
If you deny that, then I will probably not be able to help you understand.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 January 2014 - 06:54 PM.


#210 1453 R

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 4,537 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:50 PM

Take that last line as a given, M-Dog. Even simply assuming that a 100-ton 'Mech has twice the [whatever] of a 50-tonner shows erroneous assumptions on Myomes' part. Void, you're an Atlas driver, right? You'd considered yourself skilled at such, and with a good working knowledge of your machine? Tell me, what engine do you use in your Atlases? Do they, as a general rule, weigh more than...say a 275XL?

Because a Shawk with a 275XL, max armor, and requisite upgrades (Endo, DHS) goes 89 after Tweak whilst still carrying 26.5 tons of weapons and equipment. The Shawk is nowhere near as sturdy as the Atlas is, of course, but it is far more mobile. And I also imagine that while the Atlas certainly does carry double the Shawk's armor at 19 tons to 9.5...I'm willing to bet it doesn't carry even remotely near 53 tons' worth of firepower when built competently by a pilot who knows the 'Mech and what it's built for.

What say you, Void? How much tonnage of equipment would you say you carried on your usual workhorse Atlas configurations?

#211 Myomes

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 318 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostMolossian Dog, on 05 January 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

You set artifical prerequisites and then try to proof something under these prerequisites.

Your theory relies on Skirmish-only. And here you would be completely right if all 24 Mechs were all fighting in one room, all were shooting all the time and at the same time, accuracy is equal besides the differences in speed and size of targets and no terrain or team mates ever block lines of sight.

Practice has taught me this is seldomly the case, though.

----------------------------------------------------

Let´s take a look on the individual points you try to make.

Absolutely right. These are the numbers I spoke of. You are forgetting time and space though.

Absolutely wrong. Statistically speaking the side with many guns/mechs shooting at fewer hostile Mechs for most of the game time wins. If you are more mobile you can force engagements where you shoot with many Mechs at few of the enemy.
And this is not even mentioning cap wins.


Untrue. The battle doesn´t take place under lab conditions. Simply having to pass obstacles or get LOS to your taregt makes a difference. Deploying behind a chokepoint enforces at least temporary numerical superiority. Mediums can disengage when they start to loose that superiority and move to the next chokepoint. If you assume a hive mind like coordination of your assault company you have to assume the same for the opposition.

And again, I am leaving aside "soft factors" like caps and using caps to force the Assault company to move, or areas where only mediums can go and Assault not, Mediums willingly wasting time or kiting slower enemies, differences in artillery efficiency and many more.

Because it is sport not battle. It is deliberatedly taking place in an artifical lab like enviroment (1 vs 1, no ganging up on someone, no terrain etc.) which you take as granted for a battle. To even make such a comparison shows what narrow prerequisites your theory requires to work.

------------------------

What I am trying to tell you is that from a math point of view you may be right. But there is more to a battle than math.
If you deny that, then I will probably not be able to help you understand.
In a vacuum of perfect vs perfect, math really is all that matters. I've said it multiple times. It's only if the heavier tonnage group is FLAWED that you can beat it.

View PostColdPsyker1, on 05 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Well, just had a game where I got 1040 damage, 4 kills, and 3 assists. And I was in a Hunchback 4P, so I did not use an AC/20 to "artificially inflate my damage figures". Although I am sure a certain poster will just claim that I was noob stomping because my ELO is low (my W/L is 1.11).

Also, does anyone know how to upload images? I really want to upload the screencap of this, as pics or it didn't happen
dear god, noob. I've said it plenty. You use SRMs or other splattery guns to inflate your damage done.

#212 Molossian Dog

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,393 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:18 PM

This makes no sense at all. FLAWED by what? The realities of battle?

How is a battle flawed by everything that is part of battle, like time and space?

Lights and Mediums rule time and space. That is why they usually rock on conquest and struggle in skirmish. Assaults may rule math, given. But you look at math alone and think the matter settled. This is simplistic at best.

Battles don´t take place in vacuum. Therefore arguing about what would be if they did is more than pointless.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 January 2014 - 07:30 PM.


#213 ColdPsyker1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 243 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

dear god, noob. I've said it plenty. You use SRMs or other splattery guns to inflate your damage done.


Posted Image


Yes, because the Hunchback 4P can carry SOOOOO many SRMS. Bro, do you even Mechwarrior?
All i had were 8 Medium Lasers, 60 points of chest armor, and balls of steel.

And going by your logic: SRMS "inflate damage done", Autocannons "inflate damage done", and Lasers "inflate damage done". Wtf does that even mean? Apparently using any sort of weapon "inflates your damage done". I want the name of your dealer, because you are obviously getting the good stuff.

Edited by ColdPsyker1, 05 January 2014 - 07:22 PM.


#214 Molossian Dog

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,393 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:33 PM

Addendum:

And even the math angle doesn´t fully convince me. Math wise the Small (Pulse) Laser is one of the best heat/damage ratio weapons. But fast Mechs can use them well and slow ones not. Because, you know, no vacuum.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 January 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#215 Katus

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 82 posts
  • LocationTucson AZ

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:36 PM

Mediums are and can be a deadly addition to any company. I run mediums all the time getting ready for the drop weight limits when they get introduced. At that time teams will be BEGGING for medium pilots to fill the ranks. With good piloting and some luck it is fully possible to rack up some serious damage totals.

I consider it my duty as a medium pilot to engage in harassment attacks and trolling LRM boats. I as a medium driver am faster then the heavies and assaults that can kill me fast and I have the firepower to ruin a lights day if he/she chases me down after trolling the big guys.

I admit this one was a really good drop, but in this Mech I routinely hit the 500 pts of damage mark.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#216 Kjudoon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Rage
  • Rage
  • 7,636 posts
  • LocationWisconsin

Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:40 PM

"Inflating" damage is still causing damage. But I get bored with the " no true scotsman" argument being played here.

Btw I have killed a fresh DDC fatlas with a SDH 2H2 with LRMs. That is called good piloting and knowing tons don't equal wins.

Edited by Kjudoon, 05 January 2014 - 11:43 PM.


#217 Jody Von Jedi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 1,551 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

Myomes,

I too saw you in a Trebuchet this weekend. So, were you gathering some imperial data? Or did you come over to the dark side?

Hope you don't think we're ganging up on you. Most people who have replied to this thread enjoy running medium mechs and they are more successful in them then heavier chassis.

For me, the speed advantage plus the heavier armor than a light mech provides, but the fire power of a heavy in some cases, makes for a winner.

This is my last post on this thread. Thanks for playing along.

Jody

#218 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 5,642 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:36 PM

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

well, sunshine, the fact is, none of your "fact laden" (read: fictitious and unsubstantiated) posts have been any counter to my original arguments, so the onus is really on you.

No. When I say things like:

View PostVoid Angel, on 05 January 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Mediums provide mobile firepower and harassment that simply cannot be done from a heavier chassis

...those are reasons for my objection, which you should deal with, instead of simply turning your already-towering ego to 11 and repeating your uninspired opinion yet again - and claiming that since you've ignored all opposing reasoning, the onus is on me to find something else. That's not how this works. Adding an insulting dimunutive just shows how little you have to offer in the way of rational thought.

Take this little gem:

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Answer me this: Why are there weight divisions in every martial sport? How come someone 150 lb isnt matched up to someone 250 lb in boxing or any other bloodlust sport? Maybe because in an enclosed space, speed means nothing?

Well, despite what you've apparently been led to believe in the short time you've been with us, this is not a boxing match - nor do large battlefields constitute an "enclosed space." Your opinion isn't analogous to weight divisions in hand-to-hand combat sports; it's analagous to claiming that if you're playing a half-back instead of a tackle, guard, or wide reciever, you're hurting your football team.

This analogy proves that you don't know how the team dynamics of this game operate - the whole, properly functioning, is greater than the sum of its parts. If you have all assaults, but the enemy has a mixed force, they can clean your clock on a regular basis. Harassing mediums can disrupt your formation and strike at your rear while their Assaults engage. Too many Assaults in one space actually get in each others' way - Mediums can pop out from behind them or around the flanks to engage you more effectively. Sure, if you run into a group of 12 assaults with 12 Mediums, you'll likely have to try to cap win - but if you're running a more balanced team, Mediums are quite effective at their role. They cannot perform only when placed in the hands of those who do not understand tham, and do not wish to learn.

Your analogies and arguments show clearly that you have no idea how the dynamics of this game function. As you gain some experience and learn to play the game, this may change for you. If not, I only hope that your inability to learn comes from your petulant, arrogant attitude (which may be corrected) as opposed to more irrevocable sources. Happily, your education will not come from me. Since you refused my reasonable request to actually "fact up," I am revoking your speaking privileges and placing you on ignore.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 January 2014 - 08:37 PM.


#219 Ruccus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Bloodlust
  • The Bloodlust
  • 1,134 posts
  • LocationAbbotsford, BC

Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:53 PM

Scanning through the posts in this thread I figured I'd put in my two cents.

First, I think everyone should let up on the fact that Myomes is dropping in a Trebuchet - I'd rather someone who is critical of something actually try to see the other side of things than speak with a lack of experience.

Second, I think considering my stats say that of my 1293 matches I've played in 706 of them with a medium mech (492 of them in a Blackjack BJ-1) I would be considered a 'medium mech pilot'. In that time I've never had anyone heckle me about my mech choice.

I do think there is a viable role for medium mechs to play in a match, one that while more subtle than the firepower of heavy and assault mechs, or the speed, scouting, and elusiveness of lights, is important in the right instances.

While initially when starting out (when you first buy a medium mech and don't have enough credits to trick it out to where you want it) you do end up largely being a wingman for an assault or heavy mech. Your job is unglamourous but it serves a purpose - you add to your assault mech teammate's damage output and attack any light mechs who try to get up close and annoy your assault teammates.

By sticking with it and gaining the credits you're soon able to add the expensive goodies (double heatsinks, and for some mediums an XL engine) and you become a weapons platform that can get around the map relatively quickly with a damage output high enough to cause heavy and assault mechs to have to cope with what you are doing instead of ignoring you while finishing off one of your teammates. With jump jets a medium mech can use maps with elevation changes or multiple levels like Canyon Network, Crimson Strait, or HPG Manifold to great effect, firing up or down on enemies then ducking away before the return fire comes.

Just this morning I played HPG Manifold in a game where we dropped against 5 Atlases, 3 heavies, 1 medium, and 3 lights. My team had 1 Atlas, 1 Awesome, 7 heavies, 2 mediums (me in my Gauss/4ML BJ-1 and another in a BJ-1(C)), and 1 Jenner. We were slightly out-tonned (830t vs 765t), but not by a huge margin. The key ended up being those five Atlases were extremely easy to attack because they were slow and spent most of their time lumbering around the map while our mechs were fast enough and maneuverable enough (7 of our mechs could equip jump jets) that we could change between levels of the map quickly without being caught in the open. I ended the match with 4 kills and 6 assists, and of the six mechs on our side that survived the skirmish four had jump jets (the Awesome survived as did a Jagermech).

Tonnage is a nice thing to have, but it's not the be-all and end-all of MWO. The medium mech is about hitting hard and moving, then hitting again from another location. When I get caught with my pants down I'll eat a couple PPCs, AC20s, or other alpha weapons that'll quickly put me into spectator mode but there are some games where you're moving and firing and everything seems to be easy, and those are the matches where at the end you let out a big breath and smile at the kills, assists, and/or damage your little medium mech put up against heavier mechs.

If you give me a flat map with nothing to hide behind then yes, 12 assaults will beat up on 12 medium mechs all day long, no question about it. If you give me a multi-tiered map with lots of sniping points, bottlenecks, and cover then I would love to be one of the 12 medium mechs trying to see what we could do against 12 Assaults. I'd just have to drop with my dual PPC build instead of a ballistic build because I wouldn't want to run out of ammo.

Edited by Ruccus, 05 January 2014 - 10:56 PM.


#220 Amsro

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 3,363 posts
  • LocationCharging my Gauss Rifle

Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:18 PM

View PostMyomes, on 05 January 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

A medium is NOT going to deal with an assault mech one on one. It just isnt happening. Stop being delusional.


And yet I do this all the time. :ph34r: Where did you get this silly idea that a Medium can't take out a Assault 1vs1? :(





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users