41 replies to this topic

[xMintaka]

(or possibly Kintaro?) As my next purchase.

I'm currently working on the Hunchback line, have the CN9-A and Yenlo mastered, as well as Cicada's and Shadowhawks.

Clearly, I own the most effective medium mechs for all roles. That doesn't stop me wanting more though, aside from Lights I have by far the most fun in fast Medium mechs.

To that end, I've been looking at both the Treb and Blackjack series, but I'm torn between them. The Kintaro is worth an honourable mention, mainly due to the fear I have of them when piloting lights. But then, my SHD-2D2 does the exact same job, with jumpjets and the Treb can be configured to be an LRM boat too (probably better than the Kintaro, too).

My initial thoughts are as follows.

BJ Pro's:
Ballistic hardpoints
Jumpjets
Energy heavy variants (I do best with energy weapons, meta be damned)
Small size
High mounted arms for peek-a-boo shooting

BJ Con's:
Lightweight, low armour
Need to buy an expensive XL engine for all variants except the BJ-1X (only thing I have that'll fit is an XL200, which is too slow)
Apart from the 1X, they're slow compared to what I prefer
No lower arm actuators


Treb Pro's:
Diverse variants that can be configured to fill almost any role
Can mount large engines
Stupid fast variant (3C)
Jumpjet variants
Arms that can track lights

Treb Con's:
From what I've seen, they're big targets
Lots more that I can't think of at the moment


Please don't base it on what's the most "meta friendly" mech, as I don't care about that. I've got the Shadowhawk and Jenner for that. I'm just looking for another fun chassis to add to my stable. There is the added bonus that making the meta-warriors rage when they get killed by an inferior mech is glorious. The Victor pilot I killed earlier in a COM-1D was not happy about it.

As it stands now, I'm leaning more towards the Treb, purely because of the 3C (rocking up to distant cap points seconds behind the lights to scare off the enemy lights is always fun). But there must be a reason I've seen maybe two in the last week of playing, whereas the BJ is in most games.


So, what would you, the knowledgeable community, suggest?

Edited by Lunatech, 29 December 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[luxebo]

I much rather take Blackjack. But try the trial first before deciding, then make the decision. I've heard that Treb isn't very friendly, and with the new 55 tonners, it probably doesn't have a strong niche anymore. Treb also relies on LRMs or SRMs, and they can't brawl well. Blackjack has the jump brawling ac20 build and many other energy builds. Kintaro only has SSRM or LRM builds, and they're giant.

[juxstapo]

Blackjack hands down.
but yea, try it first

[Molossian Dog]

I understand that people might recommend the Blackjack. And I know that the Treb has a couple of disadvantages, size being one factor, the fact that the Kintaro is a better Treb being another. That good builds are fiendishly difficult to make doesn´t help either.

Still, as a Regulan I consider it my duty to make Trebs work. And they can. Because actually the Treb is a better Kintaro than the Kintaro. It can jump, which lets you take Streak Shots you would not even consider in a Kintaro. Think about it. Streaks are primarily anti-Light-weapons. Most lights are fast - and can jump over terrain to break contact. At least the good ones do. And now you can follow them if you deem it prudent.
Here is my -7M, which is one of main Mechs.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...80bf79d337215ea
Please note I didn´t really distribute the armour points in the Mechlab. Just clicked until the total amount was correct.


The results I posted in the other thread were with this build. It is reasonably fast, agile and can fire from almost any position, because all your weapons are either in your arms or guided missiles.
In addition to your normal weapon groups make sure you have a key assigned to chainfire the lasers and another to chainfire your streaks. You will mostly grind down bigger Mechs in spitting range. Keeping a constant stream of firepower pouring into your enemy is important from a numbers point of view as well as psychologically.
Make sure to bring the Advanced Sensor Range, Advanced Target Decay and 360° modules.

And the -3C? Well I consider the build a trade secret... :-P

Edited by Molossian Dog, 29 December 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Lord Letto]

I say Trebs as that's what I run for mediums, I chose the -3C (Speed And Good LRM Boat Stock With LRM 30 Arty (2x LRM15 with Artimis) followed by the -7K (Ballistics, AC20 Capable if STD Engine used) and -5J (Jumpjets, could be a Jump Sniper with ER Large Lasers/PPCs)

[Tahribator]

The biggest difference is the playstyles of these mechs. BJ's have lower engine caps and they tend to have STD engines, be relatively slow but pack a good and cool E+B punch with good survivability. Trebs are fast, can do mostly hot E+M combos, mobile mechs suited to many tasks including LRM boating(but not flooding), brawling, chasing lights and with 7K; sniping.

Trebs are also the most unforgiving, they tend to take damage in CT's which require a long period of "getting used to hitboxes". If you don't bring some twisting skills, you'll go down fast. Still, this makes XL's pretty safe. BJ's on the other hand are generally harder to take down due to their size(armor packed in a small area) and balanced hitboxes. As I said, BJ's can do B+E combos which are extremely heat efficient while Trebs can only do E+M(except 7K) which is currently arguably much more harder to manage at the moment.

That being said, if you like a challenge and perhaps are a brawler type, you will have more fun in Trebs. I see them as big spiders, they're extremely mobile. I had tremendous fun and success in my 7M as a jumpjet brawler(ML's, SSRM's, SRM's) and 5J as an oversized Spider. I just couldn't get used to my 3C, it can mount ridiculous engines and do almost 130KPH, but at 50 tons the weapons sacrifices you have to make are enormous. It's better to take a Cicada at that point. I found the Trebs bad at LRM lobbing, due to limited number of M hardpoints on them necessitating bigger, heavier LRM's.

Edited by Tahribator, 29 December 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[jper4]

i prefered Blackjacks to Trebs myself- the 3C was the only treb i felt i did ok with (7K seems to give me better results even though i don't like it as much). Kintaros get if you want to be a light hunter/heavy harrasser- i do use the KTO20 with dual arty LRM15s that work decent. but until SRMs work a bit better i'd stick to streaks. the 7M i find myself dying horribly very often. then again i seem to do better in mech varients people hate than the ones people say are good.

i do like the Baby Jagers though, the 1x works ok as a hit and run mech, the 1 is the preferred Blackjack by most people atm (and is the trial mech atm so test it out while you can). The 3 works if you like jumping laserboats (the 1x is a bit less heat friendly if you try to use all 8 energy slots, the 3 only has 6 to worry about). they do fall on the slower end of the mediums though all told. kdr is over 1.0+ in all 4 of them which isn;t the case for any of my other mechs yet (Papa Jager and kintaros come close)

on the plus side nice to see some Blackjack affection considering all the "worst...mech...ever..." postings that came out when they first came into the game and i kinda hid in the corner whipsering "but i like them..."

[Kenyon Burguess]

I did the grind for both and ended up keeping the treb. they are both a good series of mechs and it all comes down to play style. blackjack is a direct fire platform and the treb excels at support fire. my treb is set to fire lrm15s from the back to keep the enemy pinned down till our direct fire mechs can engage them and it works well with a team, less effective with pugs.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I've mastered both Treb and BJ, 3 chassis each just to get to the elite efficiencies. I prefer the BJ, as I tend to survive longer. As others have said, they have smaller hit boxes.

I don't load LRMs any more on any of my builds. I prefer direct fire, but when I did run LRMs, I preferred the Treb-3C. I ran it stock with 30LRM (2x15) and 4 MLs I think. The stock loadout is really pretty good. I've never run any of the Trebs with anything larger than a 300XL even though the 3C will accept larger. Still get decent speed out of them.

This Treb7k is fun to play around with. Has all 3 hardpoint types and will carry an AC/20 with a standard engine. With a standard 250 and an AC/20, you can still load a couple ML for backup weapons. With this setup it zombies fairly well. You just have to protect the left torso ballistic point or right torso energy point. If you loose both, you have no weapons left. I guess technically speaking, it's not really a zombie mech, but like a Centurion, it's left arm is a shield arm and will soak up damage. I run both arms empty.

The BJ-1 is my favorite though. I run it maxed out with the largest XL engine (235 I think), AC/20, and 3 ML. I've had lots of 500-600 dmg matches, a hand full of 700-800 dmg matches, and 2 1k plus damage matches. It's a fast mini-Jajermech.

Like you, Mediums are where my heart is. I don't tend to survive near as long in an assault or heavy. Hit and run = staying alive.

Jody Von Jedi

[TheStrider]

7M - My Favorite Trebuchet

Buddy of mine and I used to run around in these and have a lot of fun. It's a great JJ bomber. I haven't tried the BJ yet, as it didn't really do much for my interest when it came out, and mediums aren't "doing it" for me lately. I have my Shadowhawks for my medium hits for now. It was basically a medium build of my Awesome 9M I used to love. All before SRMs got the boot mind you.

I also ran around with a fast 3LL and a 2 ERPPC Trebuchet before Ghost heat hit, good times...

[LennStar]

I havent done the Treb, but I'm an energy fan, too. If you like sniping or backstabbing (sneaky manouvering), the BJ is your medium mech.

I found the Blackjack (currently started working on the Elite levels) to be surprisingly deadly. And no, you dont necessarily need an XL engine.
Best point in the BJ is the top mounted weaponry. I always hated that I could not PPC snipe with the hunch in canyon.


The AC2 variant (BJ1-) from stock works quite well if you stand beyond the lines. The JJs give you the power to stand were you can aim. Very vulnerable to lights, though, so dont go too far.
Main point here is to shoot at enemies to keep them from shooting at your team. And if that Atlas wants to do it anyway - 7,6 dps even at 700m do add up. You wont make that many kills, but often high dmg.
Currently I run this mech with 2 LargePulses. Aim them at the armor-less parts of an enemy or try to flank. I have an average of above 300+dmg if I survive a bit. And - let me look - K/D of 0,8. That is with the AC2 without XP upgrades matches included. At the current tonnage distribution thats not that bad.


The 6Energy JJ variant (BJ-1X?) is my PPC mech. No ERs! Way too hot. 2PPC and 4light lasers of someone comes closer then 80.
Of course you want as many DHS as possible. Engine is an STD180. Thanks to the JJs you can jump-turn and shoot at lights even with that engine. Of course, your target are the big guys, preferably ECM Atlases. Aiming at parts is hard, but when you hit, thats 20dmg! K/D is 1.17 Prefered map is HPG, the PPC sound is classic! And you can fire it often there and lots of cover


The 8 MedLas variant. (BJ-3?) Biggest surprise for me. Love the 8 MedLas hunch, but hated that I was always the target and that it was hard to get near enough.So I thought with 5 tons less it would be worse.
Quite the opposite! 2 Fire groups: 6MedLas in the "arms", 2 in the torso. STD225 (or was it 245?)
The high arms give you tremendous.over-cover shooting abilties even without JJs. You arent targeted as much as in the hunch (and you dont lose 6MedLas at once ^^).
Aim good with the MedLas and you are a match for any mech except fully armored Assaults! I especially found the Jager to be a nice target compared to its threat level.
The PPC BJ is a long-range sniper, this one is a short-range sniper. Both valuable in a pair with an assault as alone as a harasser/flanker.
K/D of 1,25 (and tonnage likely double, lots of Jagers and some cats, both even in 1:1s) speak for themselve. Dont say (like in the other thread) that a Medium is a liability! I dont even have the speed upgrade at the moment - in a MedLas mech a must-have!.

[Inflatable Fish]

repeat after me:

B

J

all the way.

[SpiralFace]

Its one of the casualties of translating a BG with a table top war balance mentality to an FPS because discussions like the one for the treb come up.

In the BG, Trebs where "ok" at best, but they where the "Marik catapult." It had a redundant role with other mechs in the game that did it better, but it was the Marik "flavor" of that role.

Personally, if you like the ride, go with the ride. Screw the metta. The devs will eventually make changes to spicen up designs that fall through the cracks. (Mech mesh re-looks is on the docket now at least.) Wolvie and Griffen already have ingrained "quirks" that I feel make them pretty awesome compared to the shadow hawk in some roles.

If anything, Trebs are smaller targets then Shadow hawks, you just have to watch out because they do come in a bit on the stubby side.

[Thunder Lips Express]

I prefer the blackjack then treb then kintaro, admittedly my only experience with the kintaro was the Golden boy which frustrated me to no end... On a side note, 1 slightly used golden boy for sale/trade

[xMintaka]

Ended up going with the Treb. I'm sure I'll pick up the BJ's in due course as I've had great success with the trial, but for the moment they're simply too slow. I can't stomach running an XL engine and still moving under 100kph. That's no bueno.

So far I've got the 5J with four Mlas, ALRM10/15 (still trying to decide which I prefer) and a Tag. Pretty fun being able to dance around heavy mechs, keeping them within 300m so I can hit them with Lasers and LRM's. Works surprisingly well if the rest of the team is up to scratch. Sadly it's not a mech that's able to carry.

Also have the 7K built "super stock" with an XL300, 2x PPC and an AC5. Seemed fitting for the Kurita variant, and it's rather effective to have that sort of pinpoint Alpha running around at 97kph before speed tweak. Can't wait to afford an XL325

Thanks for the advice, all. Even though I disregarded a great deal of it >.> My reasoning was that I can use the trial BJ for now when I fancy it, all the while earning XP for when I eventually buy one. That and the fact that any build the BJ does, the SHD can do better, except perhaps the AC20 (SHD is slower), but the Hunchie and Yenlo fill my medium AC20 mech roles.

Edit to include smurfy linkes of my Treb builds:

TBT-5J (Remove two heatsinks and swap the LRM10 to a 15 for my Alt build. Weirdly I seem to do better with the 10, despite it being screwed by two mechs with AMS).

TBT-7K
TBT-7K Alt. (better than the above build) Swapping the ERPPC to a regular is okay, but I prefer the point blank face punch, and carry two coolshots anyway.

Edit the second: Updated my alternative 7K build with the correct armour distribution. After more playtesting, this build is far better than the original.

Edited by Lunatech, 31 December 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[rolly]

Great thread. As I was wondering how viable the Trenchbucket was. It seemed odd that I really don't see many Trenchie's running around.

I'm sure if the BJ's weak legs quirk were coded into this game it would be less popular as it was in canon.

[Deathlike]

The arms on "the bucket" are huge, so any person who recognizes the Trebuchet on the field will go for the arms. Additionally, 80% of the weapons on most variants are on the arms, so they are easy to disable. The 7K does not suffer that same fate (well, to an extent). It is the only recommendable bucket if you like brawling (or sniping @ range, either of which are acceptable with XL engines).

If you want a future missile boat medium, wait for the Griffin's debut. That is a superior missile boat platform as far as I can tell.

The BJ is a better mech to go for, if you can handle the heat. You will need XL engines on the non-1X variants because of the DHS you will want to carry. The 1X can handle a STD 250-275 if you plan on using lots of medium lasers and it shouldn't hamper your DHS issues by much.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 December 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[LennStar]

rolly, on 31 December 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Great thread. As I was wondering how viable the Trenchbucket was. It seemed odd that I really don't see many Trenchie's running around.

I'm sure if the BJ's weak legs quirk were coded into this game it would be less popular as it was in canon.

I was legged only once in my BJ games (if you dont count the 2 times wolf pack of 3 lights). People dont shoot a BJ in the legs. They simply dont.

[NRP]

Try the Trial Blackjack. It's probably very close to an optimal build, so you'll get a good idea what a BJ can do.

I've never piloted a Treb, but I really like the Blackjacks (and the Kintaros too). On "problem" with Kintaros is they don't jump. But they have 5 missile hard points.

[xMintaka]

LennStar, on 31 December 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I was legged only once in my BJ games (if you dont count the 2 times wolf pack of 3 lights). People dont shoot a BJ in the legs. They simply dont.

Depends how much they jump under fire... last game that I used the trial mech I got legged because I kept jumping over a Stalker. But yeah, I tend to shoot for the side torso on BJ's, unless they've shaved a lot of leg armour. They're such an obvious target, just need to fire at the "love handles". That's another reason I didn't go with them, I side torso kill a LOT of Blackjacks.

Deathlike, I've got a pretty decent handle on heat management. Lots of my builds are very hot as I tend to run my mechs fast. If I get too hot I either break away to cool down, or switch to my "cooldown" weapon group.

I am waiting for the Griffin to be available for C-bills. Likewise the Wolverine