38 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

What exactly are the values on your chart again? You have the value on the Y, weapon types on the X, and then weapon types as the graphs... Not sure where you are getting you numbers and what that really means.

[hercules1981]

Mcgral18, on 29 December 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Now now, we know there is a clear advantage to 3X range and frontloaded damage. Add low heat and fast firing and it just makes them that much preferable.

But if SRMs were actually viable in close range, they might just beat ACs in a brawl.

We need some sort of mechanic to spread damage on ACs, otherwise they have a clear advantage.

Acs should have a clear advantage , they have shot drop target lead, ammo and r heavy as hell for the most part, none of these things apply to lasers. So what I'm saying more or less is they require more skill to use sort of like high risk high reward more or less, and I am not a meta build only guy whatsoever. I will also say Srms need to go back up to 2.5 then maybe we will c less acs on the field.

Edited by hercules1981, 20 January 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Belorion, on 20 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

What exactly are the values on your chart again? You have the value on the Y, weapon types on the X, and then weapon types as the graphs... Not sure where you are getting you numbers and what that really means.

All numbers come from the tables at the top.

If you look at the HPS chart:
You got the 4 red points connected beeing UAC2, UAC5, UAC10 and UAC20.
In the same graph, the green line connects the 4 LBX (LBX2, 5, 10, and 20) and the blue line connects the 4 ACs.
Comparing the two images for each section (DPS, HPS, etc.) shows what changed better than just the numbers from the tables.

So in the second image for HPS, the values are closer together between the different calibers and nicely spread for AC/LBX/UACs, while in the original (first image) the UAC5 and AC5 is very cool compared to all other guns.

Example:
AC2 = first blue point.
1.92 heat per second in the original and
1.00 heat per second in the tweak

Example2:
UAC5 = second red point.
1.33 heat per second in the original and
1.88 heat per second in the tweak

Original

Tweeked

Edited by Reno Blade, 20 January 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Mcgral18]

hercules1981, on 20 January 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Acs should have a clear advantage , they have shot drop target lead, ammo and r heavy as hell for the most part, none of these things apply to lasers. So what I'm saying more or less is they require more skill to use sort of like high risk high reward more or less, and I am not a meta build only guy whatsoever. I will also say Srms need to go back up to 2.5 then maybe we will c less acs on the field.

Thing is, it takes more skill to use lasers than ballistics. They are no risk, all reward for the most part, aside from the laughable 10% ammo explosion. With the state of heatsinks, long engagements with lasers will lose to ballistics and ammo is almost never an issue.

[generalazure]

Comparing the AC20 vs the "standard" gauss in either of your tables tells me that the gauss deals more damage per shot, has higher dps, produces less heat, has more than twice the range and 3 times the projectile speed and is way easier to mount slot wise. You get all of this for the difference between 14 and 15 tons of weight.
Can't quite see the reason why anyone would choose to use an AC20 over a gauss rifle under those circumstances.

[Reno Blade]

generalazure, on 20 January 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Comparing the AC20 vs the "standard" gauss in either of your tables tells me that the gauss deals more damage per shot, has higher dps, produces less heat, has more than twice the range and 3 times the projectile speed and is way easier to mount slot wise. You get all of this for the difference between 14 and 15 tons of weight.
Can't quite see the reason why anyone would choose to use an AC20 over a gauss rifle under those circumstances.

You are right that it looks tilted towards Gauss there.
12vs15 damage and less range, but you don't get the gauss charge or explosion and a faster recycle.
You might like to go take a LBX20 instead if you really want the one-shot bank of 20 damage, or use UAC20, if you prefere to put lots of holes into someone fast. (16 damage in 3 sec compared to Gauss 15 damage in 4.25-4.75 seconds with the charge).

Gauss might need some tweaks here too, but I felt the differences would be enough, seeing as the Gauss is currently not used often in the community.
Do you have any suggestions for the Gauss (if we try to keep these AC20 values) ?
(Or even slight changes to the AC20 in the figures)

[generalazure]

Generally, I think that weapons with the ability to engage targets at pretty much any range should never even come close to outperforming dedicated close combat weapons at close range. The more restricted a weapon is in its choice of engagements, the more effective it should be when you can actually use it how it's meant to be used. After all, losing the ability to deal damage at all in some situations is pretty much the highest price you can pay balancing wise and long range situations are not exactly rare in this game. This is not restricted to gauss vs. AC20, I just looked at those first since I'm always torn between the 2 on my hunchback.

The real question would be which role you want each of the weapon lines to fill (in other words, for what situations they should be the prefered choice). You said the LBX20 is the way to go for massive damage per shot while UACs dominate DPS wise and Gauss are the obvious choice at range. What use are normal ACs then?

Personally, I'd go like this:
-LBs: Highest DPS, but at the cost of a large spread. Perfect if you want to deal a lot of damage at close range and don't really care about hitting specific bodyparts.
The brute force choice.
-UACs: Very high DPS, but only for a very short time (either limited by a chance to jam or excessive heat buildup). The weapon for getting in, blasting off a damaged bodypart and getting the hell back out of there.
The peek-from-cover choice.
-ACs: Lower DPS than UACs in the first few seconds, but higher in the long run. A reliable and accurate gun perfect for extended firing.
The fire support choice.
-Gauss: Lower DPS than the equivalent autocannon (of any type), but with high range and accuracy. Most effective choice at high distance ("high" being determined by caliber, since small guns generally fire further in this game).
The sniping choice.


Not saying this is the only valid way of balancing those guns, but at least with this everything has a specific role where it can shine.

For the specific problem of balancing AC20 vs gauss rifle, I'd define a breakeven point for dps somewhere around 350m and tweak the dps values for one or both guns until they fit.

[Reno Blade]

Most of the suggested changes would give you much more freedom to build "working" builds instead of beeing limited to Meta-only one-shot mechs.
You could take more risky & aggressive approach in combat without the risk to get instant killed.
This would lead to less dominance of a single Mech like the Highlander or Victor.

[Reno Blade]

Here is a quick comparison between the weapons if you could always have 70% of your weapons damage/hits are where you want them to be:

Here you can see the best weapon in DPS are the UAC5 followed by the other ACs.
- The best weapons in Heat per second are AC5, LBX10 and the small weapons of missiles/lasers followed by the LRM20.
1) The best weapon in damage is the AC20 followed by the LRM20.
2) The best weapons in Dmg/Heat are the AC5, UAC5 and LBX while all energy weapons are very bad.
3) The best weapons in DPS/Heat are UAC5s followed by the other ACs again.

Overall the ACs are top while LRMs are kinda second place and SRMs follow with Lasers beeing at the bottom.

And then here is the same if you actually think of the factor beeing lower for spread damage (like missiles and lasers) and not delivering all the damage, or not to the needed location:


Compared to the first image you can see the difference in the last 4 columns (after the adjusted factor column).
1) The best weapon in damage is the AC20 even more than before followed by the LRM20 (less), but the PPC and the other ACs are catching up while all missile and energy weapons get lower.
2) The best weapons in Dmg/Heat are the AC5 (higher at the top now), UAC5 (higher) and LBX (lower), but the PPC and the other ACs are catching up while all missile and energy weapons get even lower.
3) The best weapons in DPS/Heat are AC5 (higher at the top now) followed by the other ACs (higher), but the PPCs are catching up while all missile and energy weapons get even lower.

Overall the ACs are even higher while the UAC5 tops everything now while LRMs and SRMs follow with average numbers and Lasers beeing clearly the worst.

Now, what would the post be without taking my own tweaked tables into account?
Here is the image with the values from Table Take3:

What changed now?
Taking the higher speeds of missiles and shorter cooldowns+less damage for ACs into account and changing the accuracy factor a bit.
We can see here now:
The DPS of UAC5 is lower, the LRM20 and 15 got closer and the LPulse is close to the other ACs.
The HPS of the ACs are better spread out (AC5 doesn't top everything and the UAC5 is worst AC for HPS).
1) The best weapon in damage is no longer only the AC20 (followed by LRM20 and PPC). All ACs and the PPC are average topped by the LRMs (increased) while Pulse lasers got a little better.
2) The best weapons in Dmg/Heat are no longer the AC5 and UAC5 (higher), but the AC10 and AC20 (and other ACs are all pretty close). The UAC5 moved down to average while while all missile and the Pulse lasers get a bit better.
3) The best weapons in DPS/Heat are still the UAC5 with all ACs more spread evenly present, but the PPC got way lower while all missile catch up and Pulse Lasers get a slight increase.

Overall the ACs are still high, but there is more choice as all of them work better now while the LRMs and SRMs follow with better than average numbers and (Pulse) Lasers slightly improved.

Edited by Reno Blade, 07 February 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I think, what really makes the meta so good is the exponential increase in advantage if you stack them, because of the huge difference in weapons performance in regard to dealing&taking damage (time out of cover).

If you stack 4 highlanders with meta (PPC/AC5/AC20), you can one-shot everything, because all these guns will hit one spot (or miss rarely).
And you only have to expose yourself very shorty (jumping, or peaking around the corner with your right side).

If you had 4 highlanders with SRM6(artemis), and get close enough by using your tactical skills, you can deliver a brutal burst (currently bugged), but spread a lot more.
Hitting fast targers (Jenners) with SRMs with its current speed (200m/s) is nearly impossible and such builds would be best usefull vs big slow targets like other highlanders.

If you had 4 highlanders with 4ERLL each, that would be a huge difference. In jumping you would not hit with the full durration (shake upwards, less time downwards) and on the ground, the targets could twist and spread the damage. (it would still take lot of damage)
And you would need to face the target for 1-2 seconds (because of 2 then 2 to reduce "ghost" heat). That are 2 seconds of incomming fire without cover.

If you had 4 highlanders with 40-60LRM each, you would need to hold lock and remain the lock for the full flight time.
And the damage would spread and can be mitigated by cover (because of flight time) and AMS, while you need to stay out of cover for the full time (if not with a spotter).
If your target is back in cover in the 1-8 sec it takes the LRMs, the whole volley of hundred of missiles will miss.

It's these seconds that make a huge difference between ACs/PPCs>SRMs>Streaks>Gauss>Lasers>LRMs>MGs/Flamer (in that order).
SRMs beeing bad in hit detection moving them at the end to LRMs:
->
ACs/PPCs>Streaks>Gauss>Lasers>LRMs/SRMs>MGs/Flamer (in that order)

Obviously if you attack the same target with multiple mechs, the target will take lot of damage, but if we are talking about tactical positioning with the most outgoing damage, with best result (precision) and the least incomming damage (using cover), the differences/gaps between these weapon types are very large.

Considering the effect in PUG matches, where people play alone or in 4mans, the order of best weapons and mechs to take is even emphasized.
- As a solo player you can dominate single targets in a Meta Highlander, because you can deliver the best damage while taking the least (using cover and pinpoint weapons) compared to any other combination of weapons that needs to stay in the open longer, or spreads the damage much more.
You can't be as usefull alone in an LRM mech, because it needs more teamplay.
- And as a premade you can combine the streangth of the meta mech with tactical coordination and "skill" to easily disable any teamplay and builds the other sides may take.
If your opponents use scouts, brawlers, LRM or snipers they are limiting themselves by the need of coordination (needs higher skills and better teamwork) while you can just "sync" up and focus fire.
The few chances to beat "Meta" are to be very aggressive and take high risk and use as much cover as possible while sneaking in for a rush and chaotic brawl.
In most cases this tactic needs ecm, heavy/assault mechs and luck.

That said, (even as this is nearly offtopic) your feedback is very welcome.
I had increased cooldowns (to about 5-6sec for AC20) in my Take1, but that just felt to artificial.
The high RoF of ACs compared to all other weapons is part of the issue.

Speaking about LRMs and speeds:
I think if LRMs were "fire and forget" style, the issue (staying out of cover for very long and need to keep the lock) would be gone.
That is part of why I thought/think the flight speed increase would help.

Say, if we double LRM speed, we just reduced the flight time of 6-8 sec to 3-4 sec and even if we lose lock, the missiles might still hit the target (if its slow).
I would prefere missiles not flying in a huge ball of fire, but in streams, but that would make the whole tube-system useless, right?
So, if "fire-and-forget" type of LRM lock is not possible, the best way would be faster missiles.

It sounds stange if someone would argue "but LRMs would be OP", if we consider all the comparisons stated above (with time out of cover).
Why would it be OK, if ACs/PPCs and (to a lesser degree) SRM/Laser can hit where you aim, but LRMs need to fly "slowly" towards a target and even "automatically miss", if you lose lock in the meantime?
As much as I say, "rather nerf strongest weapons than buff the rest", I like to see some buffs if we can't get the strongest weapons in line.

[Cimarb]

It is definitely interesting. I have dropped the argument temporarily until we get details on the Clan burst-fire specifics, as that is going to be game-changing. Once we have those, and see how they work against the FLD versions of IS mechs, we will have a really good basis for a fresh proposal to get it across the board.

I know Karl had mentioned that it would strain the system to do burst-fire ballistics due to the increased explosions downrange, but that was only a couple weeks before Paul announced Clan mechs would be burst-fire, so it is obviously something they are discussing internally and it all hinges on the success of the Clan weapons.

[Fiona Marshe]

ACs = 2x max range
Energy = 1.5x max range.

Problems solved (esp with Clan weapons incoming)

[Reno Blade]

The biggest advantage of curent "Meta" (PPC and ACs) is the ability to twitch your aim and shoot in an instant.

Lasers, Gauss, AC2 and UAC5 and LRMs need to be aimed for longer duration to bring in the full damage and even then, to get all the damage to the same location requires good aim and a "easy" target (not turning or twisting away).
SRMs and LBX should be the only weapon you can shoot easily in a "drive by".

The announced Clan UACs with burstfire could solve this for ACs, as you would then have multiple projectiles to hit the target which could be spread around the target or even miss.

But for PPCs, there are only so much we could think of without gimping the whole weapon.

1.) A delay.
Similar to Gauss, but without the charge and discharge. Rather have a 0.5 delay when triggering the PPC.
Effect = aiming needs longer, but damage will still hit one location

2.) some kind of damage spread/splash
2.a.) Similar to streaks, the PPC could "arc" from one hit location to another to spread damage randomly.
Something like 6 damage + 4x arc to other sections for 1 damage each.
Effect = aiming is still twitch, but the damage would be spread around.

2.b.) Similar to earlier LRM/SRM splash, the damage could have an AOE impact which could do more damage to smaller targets (overlapping locations), but less to bigger targets.
Effect = aiming is still twitch, but the damage would be spread. Damage would feel very strong against small targets and weaker on larger targets, which would fit the lore.

I think that 1.) would be enough, at least for now and very easy to implement.
It would not change the FLD (front loaded damage), keep all the stats of the weapon, but reduce the ease of twitch shooting for this strong weapon and increase the skill needed to use it efficient (like Gauss).

[Magna Canus]

Mcgral18, on 29 December 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Nothing counteracts frontloaded damage, not even torso twisting if the other pilot is competent. All the damage at once, which cannot be spread by twisting. Most ACs also have inflated damage when compared to TT, even with doubled armor. Worst case being the AC2, which has a net 10 times better effectiveness when compared to TT, but only 2X for the AC10 (which is still rather underwhelming). A short burst would make the larger ACs spread their damage, which I think would help with balance. Of course, we could always try more ghost heat....

That looks a bit contradicting; You want more spread for large ACs, but vs TT values the AC10 (large) only has 2x TT damage where the AC2 has 10x. You can spread the damage of the AC2 with torso twist. You can choose the location of an AC shot with timing and "preventive torso twist" e.g. leading with your less damaged or shield components (example; centurion leading with shield arm).

[Cimarb]

Reno Blade, on 20 May 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

The biggest advantage of curent "Meta" (PPC and ACs) is the ability to twitch your aim and shoot in an instant.

Lasers, Gauss, AC2 and UAC5 and LRMs need to be aimed for longer duration to bring in the full damage and even then, to get all the damage to the same location requires good aim and a "easy" target (not turning or twisting away).
SRMs and LBX should be the only weapon you can shoot easily in a "drive by".

The announced Clan UACs with burstfire could solve this for ACs, as you would then have multiple projectiles to hit the target which could be spread around the target or even miss.

But for PPCs, there are only so much we could think of without gimping the whole weapon.

1.) A delay.
Similar to Gauss, but without the charge and discharge. Rather have a 0.5 delay when triggering the PPC.
Effect = aiming needs longer, but damage will still hit one location

2.) some kind of damage spread/splash
2.a.) Similar to streaks, the PPC could "arc" from one hit location to another to spread damage randomly.
Something like 6 damage + 4x arc to other sections for 1 damage each.
Effect = aiming is still twitch, but the damage would be spread around.

2.b.) Similar to earlier LRM/SRM splash, the damage could have an AOE impact which could do more damage to smaller targets (overlapping locations), but less to bigger targets.
Effect = aiming is still twitch, but the damage would be spread. Damage would feel very strong against small targets and weaker on larger targets, which would fit the lore.

I think that 1.) would be enough, at least for now and very easy to implement.
It would not change the FLD (front loaded damage), keep all the stats of the weapon, but reduce the ease of twitch shooting for this strong weapon and increase the skill needed to use it efficient (like Gauss).

Adding a delay to PPC will make it too similar to Gauss, which was the whole point of adding the delay to the Gauss to begin with.

See the link in my signature - I have several ways listed of how to deal with PPCs, some of which are pretty close to what you listed.

[Reno Blade]

Cimarb, on 20 May 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

Adding a delay to PPC will make it too similar to Gauss, which was the whole point of adding the delay to the Gauss to begin with.

See the link in my signature - I have several ways listed of how to deal with PPCs, some of which are pretty close to what you listed.

Quote from the Link:

Quote

* Man-made Lightning (random arc spread): The PPC shoots a lightning bolt that hits the target point for {6} damage, then arcs to two random spots anywhere on the mech for an additional {2} points each. For example, if the PPC hits the front RT, it does {6} points of damage, then arcs to the rear LT for {2} points of damage and the RL for another {2} points of damage, for a total of {10} points of damage. (OPTIONAL: the lightning can hit internal structure even if their is armor remaining on that section)

* Plasma Blob (energy LBX): The PPC functions like a small-radius LBX, with 10 plasma blobs that fire in a cone from the barrel, spreading to a {20m} cone at max range and dealing {1} point of damage per blob that hits.

* Electrolaser(charge): The PPC charges up for {0.5} seconds. During this time, a tag-like laser shows where the beam will shoot. After {0.5} seconds, the PPC discharges, shooting a beam of ionized particles along the laser to instantly do {10} points of damage. (NOTE: This may function like the Gauss charge, or possibly fire automatically after the charge up)

* Electropulse (duration): This functions like the Electrolaser, charging for {0.5} seconds, but then delivers {3} points of damage every {0.5} seconds after that for as long as the trigger is held. (Optional: Heat grows exponentially as the beam is held (so {1} heat the first tick, {2} the second, {4} the third, etc.))

Yea, your Lightning (2.a streak pattern), Electrolaser (1. delay) and Blob (2.b splash) are very close and I guess we two are not the only ones posting such ideas

The Delay (your Electrolaser) is close to the Gauss, but it would be without control. You always shoot after the 0.x seconds delay without the ability to cancle the charge (gauss discharge).
You could macro PPC and Gauss, but then if you don't have the target for the full charge duration, you would still miss and would be only able to keep the trigger down to discharge the gauss, but the PPCs would go wasted.
The only Idea to prevent this would be to further slow down PPCs, or make the charge random between 0.4 and 0.8 sec.

The main reason for the Gauss charge might have been the desync, but it also explained and implemented the minimum range from TT, where it's harder to hit with a Gauss in 2 hex field minimum range.

Imho the changes could be done like this:
phase 1 add the charge (fixed 0.5sec)
phase 2 change damage type (e.g. lightning)
phase 3 fine-tune charge, damage, heat and speed after collecting enough telemetry
at the end it could look like this:
8 heat, 12 damage, 0,9 sec charge, 1200 speed (PPC) or 1600 speed (erPPC), splash to multiple locations, but we need to start with one step at a time and finally get away from twitch shooting.

I guess that would be ideal way and follow the route players demand: small changes one at a time.

[Cimarb]

I'm really looking forward to the Clan weapons, as I think they will be amazing. It also gives me hope that PGI will start transitioning the burst-fire and other adjustments to the existing IS weapons eventually as things balance out, but I'm not getting my hopes up too much either.

[Kalimaster]

I would like to know where you are getting the Ultra AC 20 and LBX 20, for as far as I know, these weapons have not been implemented into Mechwarrior Online as of yet.

But other than SRM's, I think that the weapons are working just fine as they are.

[Reno Blade]

Kalimaster, on 20 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I would like to know where you are getting the Ultra AC 20 and LBX 20, for as far as I know, these weapons have not been implemented into Mechwarrior Online as of yet.

But other than SRM's, I think that the weapons are working just fine as they are.

These weapons are not ingame indeed. The values are just a copy of the AC20 in this case with UAC fire rate and LBX heat taken into the calculation.
So with the double-tap all UACs do 2x the shots of their AC counterpart.
With the LBX10 beeing a bit cooler, the LBX20 heat is also less than the AC20.

I had to add these weapons to complete the graphs with the DPS and HPS and so on that then could be tweaked (see the Take1 and later tables and figures).