91 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

The thing is, MWO has one of the worst heat systems, where heatsinks ADD to the heat capacity, instead of only dissipating heat. Since the weapons generate more heat, but the heatsinks dissipate at stock levels (and gimped DHS) what we get is a borked heat sytem.

Sure it works for high alphas and peak and shoot, but it lead to this meta of ours. It seems they want to avoid heat neutral builds.

That has little to do with not finding viable builds for every chasis. Also that is an opinion. I like the heat system myself and work within it quite well.

[Nick Makiaveli]

For the record the reason they keep SHS in the game even thought they are of limited use is simple. One word: Progression.

It's not like you have to level up to get bigger mechs, it's not like you have to be level 25 before you can use Large Lasers. There are limited avenues to give players a sense of progression, especially since not eveyone is playing Pokemech, ie have to collect them all. So by having various upgrade paths, it allows for a much needed sense of progression.

They are talking about adding players levels, probably more just to give stat counters and braggarts something else to show off and obsess over.

The OP isn't thinking things thru, he is only looking at his personal situation and not thinking about the game and the community as a whole. Also, modifying HS so you can "use up free space" on your mech is hardly a compelling argument.

[Varent]

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

For the record the reason they keep SHS in the game even thought they are of limited use is simple. One word: Progression.

This.

[kapusta11]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

The thing is, MWO has one of the worst heat systems, where heatsinks ADD to the heat capacity, instead of only dissipating heat. Since the weapons generate more heat, but the heatsinks dissipate at stock levels (and gimped DHS) what we get is a borked heat sytem.

Sure it works for high alphas and peak and shoot, but it lead to this meta of ours. It seems they want to avoid heat neutral builds.

At least someone sees the truth.

[GeneralGrievous]

Progression would make sense if there was any other item on the mech that you also "progress" but there isn't. Maybe you need artemis maybe you dont, same with endo, same with ferro. Those are tactical decisions based on your build. There's never a moment where you say, hmmm .. SHS make sense for this build. Besides, isn't the tech tree for progress?

And you are BS'ing if you honestly are saying you play your single heat sink mech and "progress" until you have 1.5 mil so you can afford to upgrade to doubles. Instead, you go get in your grinding mech, make 1.5mil and then go back and buy DHS .. right? Right.

So far, no one has said SHS have any point in the game (other than 'progression' which is a bunch of talking without saying anything) and as I said in the first place that is my problem. It's not about free space either... why does standing in water make your heatsinks work better? All that programming time wasted because who can put HS in legs? Nobody cuz nobody uses singles.
I don't have a solution.. I'm not a game designer... I'm just a player that is annoyed that they have no purpose like so many other things in this game. But if fixed, would offer some new opportunities.

[FupDup]

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

For the record the reason they keep SHS in the game even thought they are of limited use is simple. One word: Progression.

It's not like you have to level up to get bigger mechs, it's not like you have to be level 25 before you can use Large Lasers. There are limited avenues to give players a sense of progression, especially since not eveyone is playing Pokemech, ie have to collect them all. So by having various upgrade paths, it allows for a much needed sense of progression.

They are talking about adding players levels, probably more just to give stat counters and braggarts something else to show off and obsess over.

The OP isn't thinking things thru, he is only looking at his personal situation and not thinking about the game and the community as a whole. Also, modifying HS so you can "use up free space" on your mech is hardly a compelling argument.

What progression? You can and should skip directly to DHS without ever using SHS once. Just play 15 matches or fewer with any of your existing upgraded mechs (or a trial champion if you're a space poor) until you can buy DHS for the mech you want to upgrade. There is no damn path. It's just a silly way to force you to play 15 additional matches (or fewer!) before you can use a newly purchased mech.

[Varent]

FupDup, on 30 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

What progression? You can and should skip directly to DHS without ever using SHS once. Just play 15 matches or fewer with any of your existing upgraded mechs (or a trial champion if you're a space poor) until you can buy DHS for the mech you want to upgrade. There is no damn path. It's just a silly way to force you to play 15 additional matches (or fewer!) before you can use a newly purchased mech.

I would argue its a progression. When I first started playing I enjoyed runnin glight mechs, and missle boats. ya perhaps I didnt run high dps ac users or laser boats but I was successful running SHS using missle boats and light mechs.... In fact I didnt like using DHS for awhile (I was kinda dumb) and refused to use them for probly the first 200 or so games until I started making more advanced builds and found I needed them. I played hundreds of matches with standard heat sinks... so it can be done.. and it is a progression.

[Lykaon]

GeneralGrievous, on 30 December 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

Right, externals 2.0 .. not 1.4.

Why even have singles in the game if they have no use? That is my main gripe. And why make me drop an additional 1.5mil per mech ... just start everything with doubles .. there's never a reason to say 'hey, maybe these singles are a better idea' ... makes no sense.

There ares some very very rare examples of mech builds that do not require DHS. But for the most part DHS are mandatory.
Not to hard to swallow if you come from a table top battletech background the same was true there as well.

If I recall correctly double heatsinks were three times the cost in the table top game rules and single heatsinks were pretty cheap at 2,000 c-bills.

So 1.5 million C-bills should buy you 250 DHS. or somewhere in the area of enough DHS to equip 15-20 mechs.

MWo DHS are way over priced

Edited by Lykaon, 30 December 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[FupDup]

Varent, on 30 December 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

I would argue its a progression. When I first started playing I enjoyed runnin glight mechs, and missle boats. ya perhaps I didnt run high dps ac users or laser boats but I was successful running SHS using missle boats and light mechs.... In fact I didnt like using DHS for awhile (I was kinda dumb) and refused to use them for probly the first 200 or so games until I started making more advanced builds and found I needed them. I played hundreds of matches with standard heat sinks... so it can be done.. and it is a progression.

"Progression" in most cases refers to a sequence/series of events/steps in some kind of order. The DHS tax ain't progression because you can and should skip right over it. All it effectively accomplishes is making a player go through ~15 more matches before they get to enjoy the new mech they just bought (assuming they don't have 1,500,000 C-Bills stored up already).

The only time using SHS was ever excusable to equip in MWO history was if you were a new player when all trial mechs used TT stock builds, and you didn't yet have enough cash to buy a mech of your own. With today's ugpraded trial mechs, there is absolutely no reason to use SHS for even a single minute. As for your lights and LRM boats, both of those are very heat-intensive (lights because they rely on lasers), so using SHS on them for any length of time is not a smart idea.


Here's a fun fact: a Medium Laser generates approximately 1 heat per second. A Standard Heat Sink dissipates 0.1 heat per second. The 10 SHS that come in your engine dissipate a total of 1 heat per second. This means that a single Medium Laser will heat you up at the exact rate that you can cool down, if you are playing on a normal map like River City. If you are on a hot map such as Mordor, that single ML will actually fry you. Now remember that most worthwhile lights have at least 2-4 Medium Lasers, and that LRMs of all salvo sizes generate more heat than an ML.

Edited by FupDup, 30 December 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

GeneralGrievous, on 30 December 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

Right, externals 2.0 .. not 1.4.

Why even have singles in the game if they have no use? That is my main gripe. And why make me drop an additional 1.5mil per mech ... just start everything with doubles .. there's never a reason to say 'hey, maybe these singles are a better idea' ... makes no sense.

Couple of reasons....time sink, therefore incentive to consider spending real money on a f2p game (aka premium time, etc.)

Secondly, SHS don't have to be viable. DHS are a straight upgrade. That's how it's always been basically and there's no reason to change that. Would it be nice if SHS brought more to the table? Possibly. But that's not a requirement.

[Varent]

Lukoi, on 30 December 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Couple of reasons....time sink, therefore incentive to consider spending real money on a f2p game (aka premium time, etc.)

Secondly, SHS don't have to be viable. DHS are a straight upgrade. That's how it's always been basically and there's no reason to change that. Would it be nice if SHS brought more to the table? Possibly. But that's not a requirement.

This.

[MustrumRidcully]

GeneralGrievous, on 30 December 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I read a post somewhere or another that applying the double heat sink bonus to the engine makes the single heat sink completely useless. After toying around in mechlab today I find this to be 100% true. I think that the double heat sink should only affect external heat sinks, not internal ones in the engine. Unless it is for the additional slots (10+whatever) heat sinks.

*snip*

Keep It Simple Stupid!

A better approach would - assuming you really want to keep it simple and not revamp the heat system - to make the internal heat sinks have all the exact same strength as double heat sinks.

There are actually people out there that say that M:WO is closed to balanced. I disagree, but I know that if they have that impression, than it is because they expect every mech to run around with DHS and go from there (no one argues that Single Heat Sinks are equally useful as Double Heat Sinks), so it would be bad to suddenly lower the heat efficiency of most mechs. Better to buff the the SHS mechs that are currently clearly inferior.

[990Dreams]

Just... no. Players need to progress through levels of technology. By only doing externals you lower the value of using doubles.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 30 December 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

GeneralGrievous, on 30 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Progression would make sense if there was any other item on the mech that you also "progress" but there isn't. Maybe you need artemis maybe you dont, same with endo, same with ferro. Those are tactical decisions based on your build. There's never a moment where you say, hmmm .. SHS make sense for this build. Besides, isn't the tech tree for progress?

And you are BS'ing if you honestly are saying you play your single heat sink mech and "progress" until you have 1.5 mil so you can afford to upgrade to doubles. Instead, you go get in your grinding mech, make 1.5mil and then go back and buy DHS .. right? Right.

So far, no one has said SHS have any point in the game (other than 'progression' which is a bunch of talking without saying anything) and as I said in the first place that is my problem. It's not about free space either... why does standing in water make your heatsinks work better? All that programming time wasted because who can put HS in legs? Nobody cuz nobody uses singles.
I don't have a solution.. I'm not a game designer... I'm just a player that is annoyed that they have no purpose like so many other things in this game. But if fixed, would offer some new opportunities.

FupDup, on 30 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

What progression? You can and should skip directly to DHS without ever using SHS once. Just play 15 matches or fewer with any of your existing upgraded mechs (or a trial champion if you're a space poor) until you can buy DHS for the mech you want to upgrade. There is no damn path. It's just a silly way to force you to play 15 additional matches (or fewer!) before you can use a newly purchased mech.

Ok first off, assuming you know what someone else does because it's what you and your friends do is shortsighted at best.

If I "grind" the money for DHS in a mech that I need/want DHS in I accomplish two goals. One I get experience for that mech so I can knock out some Basics. Second I get experience playing that mech and managing my heat. Also, i usually just play which ever mechs need X2 XP for the day, so the grind isn't bad especially as i have fun playing MWO.

Now as to progression, I don't you guys understand what it is. It is an upgrade to your mech. It makes it better. If you have the spaces, most people upgrade to ES so they can get more armor, ammo, or just more weapons and heatsinks.

Sure you don't have to get ES or FF. You can build a mech that doesn't need DHS if you don't play AlphaWarrior Online. Some LRMs or AC/2s for long range, with some other weapons for close range. Problem solved. Your heat efficiency may show a .83 but since Alpha striking would be a rare thing (which it should be) and you are fine.

It's when people want to build min/max mechs that would never work in the "real world" is when they start griping about canon restrictions and the game design.

Seriously, why not just remove all limitations? Let anyone build any mech they want. Keep XP etc but toss out the C-bills entirely. Because it would lessen the amount of time people needed to play to get access to all those toys and thus lessen the money people would spend (no need for mechs with a C-bill bonus) which is obviously no big deal, I'm sure all the programmers would work for half pay.


See? You have to look at the system as whole, not just SHS vs DHS. It's part of the game design and player progression path, albeit a small step and one that is exacerbated by ghost heat. Remember, TT doesn't convert well to FPS.

You get where I am coming from, or are you just going to call me names and suggest I need to graduate kindergarten first? (Have a degree and over 3/4 the way to a second and married to a woman with 2 Master's and who is getting her PhD just FTR.....)

[FupDup]

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

---
Sure you don't have to get ES or FF. You can build a mech that doesn't need DHS if you don't play AlphaWarrior Online. Some LRMs or AC/2s for long range, with some other weapons for close range. Problem solved. Your heat efficiency may show a .83 but since Alpha striking would be a rare thing (which it should be) and you are fine.

It's when people want to build min/max mechs that would never work in the "real world" is when they start griping about canon restrictions and the game design.

An AC/2 generates 1.92 heat per second of firing. A Standard Heat Sink dissipates 0.1 heat per second. This means you would theoretically need approximately 19 SHS to cool a single AC/2. Maybe mounting all 19 might be slighty overkill, but the 10 SHS that come with the engine are not even remotely enough to handle an AC/2. In fact, the 10 engine SHS can only handle a single ML before you need more sinks, at least assuming you want decent damage output. It doesn't matter if you don't alpha strike all the time, SHS just don't cut it unless you're using dual Gauss Rifles.


As for ES, there are a handful of builds in the game that are actually better off without using ES at all, such as various Stalker configurations and a Catapult K2 I used to drive. Also, the vast majority of mechs in MWO benefit more from standard armor than from FF. I don't see anybody asking for nerfs to standard internal structure or standard armor, even though both of them are totally viable and useful on a number of loadouts.

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Seriously, why not just remove all limitations? Let anyone build any mech they want. Keep XP etc but toss out the C-bills entirely. Because it would lessen the amount of time people needed to play to get access to all those toys and thus lessen the money people would spend (no need for mechs with a C-bill bonus) which is obviously no big deal, I'm sure all the programmers would work for half pay.

I'm having a hard time believing that making players go through 15 matches to get DHS somehow pays the majority of this game's bills, and making SHS even somewhat enjoyable or bearable to use would make the developers dirt poor.

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

See? You have to look at the system as whole, not just SHS vs DHS. It's part of the game design and player progression path, albeit a small step and one that is exacerbated by ghost heat. Remember, TT doesn't convert well to FPS.

Again, it's not a path. It's not a stepping stone, it's not progression. It's just a delay and nothing more. It delays how long you have to play before the mech you just bought becomes viable and fun to play. And TT definitely doesn't convert well to FPS, so why are you insisting on keeping SHS so terrible (it was TT that set the standard for SHS being bad)?

Ghost heat has nothing to do with it. Weapons generate too much heat over time for SHS to keep up with--even DHS have a hard time. Even 3 measly Medium Lasers will cook you unless you're on a cold map or packing an absurdly high number of sinks.

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

You get where I am coming from, or are you just going to call me names and suggest I need to graduate kindergarten first? (Have a degree and over 3/4 the way to a second and married to a woman with 2 Master's and who is getting her PhD just FTR.....)

Neither people that you quoted called you any names.

Edited by FupDup, 30 December 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

FupDup, on 30 December 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

An AC/2 generates 1.92 heat per second of firing. A Standard Heat Sink dissipates 0.1 heat per second. This means you would theoretically need approximately 19 SHS to cool a single AC/2. Maybe mounting all 19 might be slighty overkill, but the 10 SHS that come with the engine are not even remotely enough to handle an AC/2. In fact, the 10 engine SHS can only handle a single ML before you need more sinks, at least assuming you want decent damage output. It doesn't matter if you don't alpha strike all the time, SHS just don't cut it unless you're using dual Gauss Rifles.


As for ES, there are a handful of builds in the game that are actually better off without using ES at all, such as various Stalker configurations and a Catapult K2 I used to drive. Also, the vast majority of mechs in MWO benefit more from standard armor than from FF. I don't see anybody asking for nerfs to standard internal structure or standard armor, even though both of them are totally viable and useful on a number of loadouts.



I'm having a hard time believing that making players go through 15 matches to get DHS somehow pays the majority of this game's bills, and making SHS even somewhat enjoyable or bearable to use would make the developers dirt poor.




Again, it's not a path. It's not a stepping stone, it's not progression. It's just a delay and nothing more. It delays how long you have to play before the mech you just bought becomes viable and fun to play. And TT definitely doesn't convert well to FPS, so why are you insisting on keeping SHS so terrible (it was TT that set the standard for SHS being bad)?

Ghost heat has nothing to do with it. Weapons generate too much heat over time for SHS to keep up with--even DHS have a hard time. Even 3 measly Medium Lasers will cook you unless you're on a cold map or packing an absurdly high number of sinks.




Neither people that you quoted called you any names.

This post can pretty much be summed up that you didn't understand what I was getting at.

Did I say that you could use SHS and ignore heat management?

Did I say that SHS were solely responsible for the cash flow or imply that it is part of the process?

Progression is by definition a delay. WTF else would it be?

I didn't say they shouldn't revamp the heat system, so I am not insisting they keep it. i am telling you my thoughts on why it is still here. Understanding /= Agreement.

Umm 3 ML lasers will cook you huh? Maybe it's time for Heat Management!!! It is supposed to be the Thinking Man's Shooter, not just some arcade shoot-em-up....

Lastly, *sigh*. Did I say anyone did? Or did I ask a question? See this is proof you aren't even considering the possibility that I am right, which means NOTHING I say will penetrate. You will just continue to misdirect and wander off on tangents.

I mean damn, how did you get stop calling me names out of that? You have a good command of the written version of English, so I don't see even if it isn't your first language as that being the problem. So I have to assume it's a psychological issue.

[Damia Savon]

There is no progress in the game. Single heat sinks are practically useless except in some ballistic builds. It only seems like "progress" because the game is balanced around broken double heat sinks. Even PGI admits single heat sinks are useless. So if you want to compete in this game then upgrading to double heat sinks is a requirement.

Endo-steel is an option though most builds benefit from it. Ferro-fibrous offers no benefit at all to most mechs except lights because they have the crit slot space to take advantage of the minimal weight saving FF armor offers.

You do not need to use modules if you do not want to. They certainly help but are not mandatory. I can run LRM boats without advance targeting decay or sensor range. Artemis is not mandatory either. Same with Tag and BAP. It will be like playing with one arm tied behind your back but you can do it.

What make the game enjoyable, at least for me, is running a mech that looks cool, carries the weapons I like, in a configuration I find useful and they actually lets me use it! If I want to run an all energy build like my Jester then I should be allowed to do it and actually have fun playing with it without having to run away every couple shots to cool down. That does not make the game fun.

Buying mechs I do not want just to progress up the mech tree to make all of them more efficient is stupid. If I finish all of the basics in a C1 then why on earth do I need to do it again for a C4 and an A1. They are all the same friggin chassis. Anything I can already do in a C1, as a pilot, do in an C4, A1, K2 or any other Catapult. It is like saying that because a fighter pilot first learned on the A model that he.she has to return to flight school and go through it all over again just to learn how to fly the B, C or D version.

I would rather have a single progression tree for an entire chassis with a higher XP requirement than needing to buy multiple mechs. It would make buying the different models more enticing because you know you do not have to grind each one over and over again.

This requirement is one thing that really hurts new players. Their mechs are less effective even after they finish the basics because they cannot get to the elite level without purchasing more mechs they may not want and grinding through all that XP again and again. Unless they do, their mechs are inherently worse than those who can afford to do it.

Levelling/progress to get "better" does add satisfaction for most people as long as it is fun to do it. When progressing upwards is called a "grind" it means people are not having fun. It is just a boring chore to get through and can kill overall interest in the game.

[FupDup]

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

This post can pretty much be summed up that you didn't understand what I was getting at.

Did I say that you could use SHS and ignore heat management?

Did I say that SHS were solely responsible for the cash flow or imply that it is part of the process?

No, but I'm pretty sure that they have a minimal or at least lesser impact than you're implying they do, and that you exaggerated just how "vital" the DHS tax is. Most of this game's income probably comes from mech bays, camo, and hero mechs--note that the last item in that list is for help grinding C-Bills in general, not soley DHS (because stuff like Endo, XL, and new mechs can be costly).

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Progression is by definition a delay. WTF else would it be?

One of the definitions is something to the effect of "a passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence." Basically, stepping stones. Go from Point A --> point B --> Point C --> Point D --> etc. etc. The DHS tax isn't about going through various milestones, it's just a waiting game. A fairly unimaginative one at that.

Nick Makiaveli, on 30 December 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

I didn'tsay they shouldn't revamp the heat system, so I am not insisting they keep it. i am telling you my thoughts on why it is still here. Understanding /= Agreement.

Umm 3 ML lasers will cook you huh? Maybe it's time for Heat Management!!! It is supposed to be the Thinking Man's Shooter, not just some arcade shoot-em-up....

You can be a thinking man all you want, but ultimately a DHS mech will roll over you in (almost) any engagement. An SHS mech can only handle a few weapons at any given time, and for only very very short periods of time unless they are ballistics. It's a total roflstomp, like this:


-----


Many of the other points you made I didn't respond directly to because there isn't a whole lot to be said (that would be productive).

Edited by FupDup, 30 December 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

Lostdragon, on 30 December 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

You would have to change everything about heat mechanics to make SHS viable. Making all engine heatsinks singles and only applying the double value to externals would completely break the game. Most mechs would instantly lose 25-50% of their dissipation. As mentioned above, this would really hurt lights and mediums. I run a JR7-F with 15 DHS. The change you propose would give me a net change of -7 heat dissipation, which would pretty much put it in the scrap heap.

To me, the better solution is to lower heat capacity and increase dissipation across the board. Make it so only SHS increase capacity. If you want to be able to do big alphas you would use SHS but have slower dissipation. If you want to fire continuously you use DHS and have to give up the ability to do big alphas. Through tuning the capacity, dissipation, and weapon heat you could balance it such that with SHS you could fire 3 ERPPCs in an alpha but you would have to cool for a while before you could do it again or with DHS you could chainfire the ERPPCs but firing an alpha would be an instant shutdown.

This gives SHS a role as the burst damage choice and DHS a role as the sustained damage choice with significant tradeoffs for picking one over the other. Doing some quick math, if the heat cap is 30 and you have SHS cooling .3 HPS and DHS cooling .5 (I know that is not double, but the math works out nicely with these values) with 15 SHS you would have a cap of 45 with 4.5 cooling per second and DHS would retain the 30 heat cap but cool 7.5 heat per second.

If you had a mech equipped with 3 ERPPCs and SHS under this system it could fire all three then after 10s cooling down it could fire all three again for a total of 60 damage delivered in two volleys. Using DHS the same mech could fire 7 volleys in 10s for 70 damage. Granted this is just looking at a very specific scenario and would likely require tuning to account for other weapons, but I think a scheme like this could work better than what we have now.

This has been a suggestion for some time now.


Making DHS, true 2.0 but not increasing heat cap.
And make SHS increase heat cap but keep the 1.0 diss they do.

Thus making DHS good for DPS builds, but bad for high alpha builds, and making SHS good for alpha but bad for DPS.

[Xenon Codex]

Another way to look at this argument is to examine the tradeoffs that come with the upgrades.

With Endo and FF, you have to sacrifice a lot of slots to get the few extra tons. Sometimes it's not worth it, your build needs the slots more than the tonnage. There are real advantages and disadvantages to both of those upgrades, so the choice isn't always clear.

With SHS vs. DHS, there's really no tradeoff. Sure external DHS take more slots, but you get 10 free DHS in the engine (assuming >= 250), which makes it a no-brainer. So it's a pure upgrade and always worth the C-bills. No one ever removes DHS in favor of SHS. This is fine for some people, but others like myself would prefer SHS to be a viable option for some builds.

My opinion is that SHS are in the game and so should be useful from a tactical perspective, and not just something to "upgrade" and forget about.