78 replies to this topic

[Varent]

My own thoughts. Pretty much across the board....

Longer recycle time between shots. More heat. Maybe minor tweaks so they arent as ridiculously op but overall can keep the main feel this way.

[Veranova]

These are all really smart suggestions.
I think the LRM's need a bit more of a nerf, to discourage second line mechs boating them while front line mechs brawl, but everything else sounds quite balanced.

[VanillaG]

Another potential nerf to ammo based weapons is reduce the number of shots/missles per ton. As we have already seen, MWO ammo based weapons need more ammo that stock loadouts so those types of weapons would need even more ammo which would cause them to either not boat them or sacrifice secondary weapons/heatsinks to bring enough ammo.

[Deimos Pryde]

this is the most sensible post I've seen on the subject. all the suggestions in the OP are a million miles better than the PGI ideas!

I also like the idea that one of the other guys had on making the clan LRM a pretty much flat trajectory - it fits very nicely with the ethos.

the idea of making the initial spread pattern wide would also stop them effectively being streak srm20s when used against slow moving assaults close up! i love it!

[Master Maniac]

After reading through the posts:

First, allow me to clarify my idea for Clan LRMs. Yes, in order to deliver the salvo accurately to the target, I envision that a pilot must indeed keep their crosshairs on target for at least 80-90% of the missiles' flight time, since as we all know LRMs cannot actively track and adjust their course mid-flight without a consistent lock. This does not render them useless any more than the requirement to keep the beam focused on a target ruins laser weapons.

Clan LRMs should have a very tight spread pattern at moderate to long ranges - perhaps even more so than Artemis/Tag-buffed standard LRMs. Sure, you have to have to remain focused on your target, and you have to have a steady hand, but the result is pretty much a long-range LB-20X shot to the torsos of your opponent. That is no joke. Also, I have yet to cement the actual travel speed of the Clan LRM. I imagine them to be "slow" in comparison to SRMs, but in order to balance their intended short to mid-range effectiveness, they should be a bit faster than standard LRMs, I do concur.

And, yeah, the idea of a "flat trajectory" for Clan LRMs is an excellent idea. I completely agree. :-)

I'm dead-set in my thinking that this approach is the *right* way to do Clan LRMs.

1) Variety. These weapons will play drastically differently from standard LRMs, adding a lot of different tactics to the game.
2) Flexibility. 'Mechs can mount these weapons to add a little extra oomph to their arsenal, due to reduced crit/tonnage requirements. This way, SRMs aren't your only viable low weight stream-damage weapon.
3) Challenge. Some people want to use LRMs, but want something a bit more engaging than pointing at a target bracket, holding for a moment, and clicking away. Clan LRMs both demand and reward a steady hand, while leaving standard LRMs alone for pilots who wish to adopt a strictly long-range role.

Also, there's a good point in that the vastly increased range of Clan ER Lasers seems to go against the Clans' preference of close-range single combat. Still, I don't expect that the Clans would eliminate a potential range advantage for a direct fire weapon just to satisfy their code of honor. They're honorable warriors, to be sure, but not entirely impractical. If they're going to soften a tough opponent up before closing, I believe they'd do it - that's the intended use of their LRMs, anyway.

As far as the possibility of backpedaling your enemy to death, it's impractical. In order to shoot out your target *just* with a long-range Clan ER LL, you've got to be constantly laying on the trigger, while running your engine full. These weapons should generate enough heat so that constant sustained fire *will* eventually overheat the 'Mech without a boatload of heatsinks, allowing the target to close. I suppose a light 'Mech running just one Clan ER LL *could* technically savage other 'Mechs from long range, but only if every last other ton was spent on the engine and heatsinks. Even then, that would take a lot of targeting skill, and it's not like such a pilot isn't *earning* their kills. Especially considering the low cycle rate of a single Clan ER LL.

Heavier 'Mechs aren't going to be able to boat multiple Clan ER LL's to keep up sustained direct fire without substantial tonnage sacrifices for heat sinks. They will need to take a momentary breather, which gives opponents time to close the distance. Also of note is the fact that Clan ER LL's enjoy a boost to their max range more than their long range. At extreme ranges, the much-hotter Clan ER LL is going to be doing a little less damage than the standard large laser.

The enhanced range of Clan ER lasers offers flexibility. I don't believe it turns them into extreme-ranged snipers. Sniping while retreating with a long-burn laser beam sounds incredibly difficult. If you get a kill while doing it, then by gum you *deserve* it! :-)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I also enjoy hearing everyone else's ideas!

Edited by Master Maniac, 31 December 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Stelar 7]

Master Maniac, on 30 December 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I can further clarify the difference between my suggestions and PGI's:

They suggest arbitrarily INCREASING tonnage of some Clan weapons. I suggest the exact opposite. Also, my "big cloud" is a completely different mechanic from simply reducing damage values. I should not have to explain why.

As far as the ER LL comparison goes, I actually gave my opinion some depth and certainty as opposed to simply suggesting that "we maybe kinda sort might go with higher damage/range/heat but we really don't know how much and nothing's set in stone."

"That being said, when dealing with core values like tonnage or crits, we risk the chance of breaking a standard build in a future Clan BattleMech in terms of its weight capacity or space capacity. This is why this third area of balancing new mechanics takes the longest time and will have to be revisited now and again."

- From the dev's release. TONNAGE AND CRITS SHOULD NOT BE ALTERED. Ever. At least not as an arbitrary means of adding a highly superficial "con" to the weapon.

Plus, as an aside, their idea of how you might customize Clan 'Mechs is blatantly awful, and I've already voiced my opposition to it.

Ok, you dodged the Endo comment, and you are playing semantics with the rest, reduced damage is reduced damage, if you suggested reduce by half and they said by full it would both be different, and reduced damage mechanics.

As for the rest, and this is why I keep harping on Endo, you seem to feel the stock tonnage and crit values on clan weapons are worth saving, possibly with the absurdly efficient heatsinks, endo fero and XL engines.

I agree with the idea of different, but not necessarily better. You are not mitigating the necessarily better enough in your ideas.

At their stock weight and crit spaces Clan weapons will be OP. Look at the crying over AC spam now, and you want to make it exponentially worse by having it be massive LRM spam? Even lighter AC? Cycle times can do a lot, but only on small maps where a rushing brawler can exploit the gap in fire time before the shooter gets to cover. Your ideas force exposure, which combined with the forced stock armor will make clan mechs dangerous to use, especially at high meta games. They will still mop all holy hell in the pug games though, and that is bad.

If the only argument for stock damage/tonnage or crit values "Iconic Builds" I say to heck with them. That holds no more weight with me than someone's idea of "Traditional Marriage".

The clans need to be available in a way that does not obsolete IS mechs and tech. If that means messing with the tonage in addition to heat, crits, duration, recycle and whatever else so be it.

A lot of your ideas help with that. However the ones you are not touching will be big deals. 2Crit DHS. CASE everywhere XL that don't kill you when the torso goes, half cost Endo and FF for the using of both, and those gawd awful PPC... something needs to give.

[Master Maniac]

Stelar 7, on 31 December 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Ok, you dodged the Endo comment, and you are playing semantics with the rest, reduced damage is reduced damage, if you suggested reduce by half and they said by full it would both be different, and reduced damage mechanics.

As for the rest, and this is why I keep harping on Endo, you seem to feel the stock tonnage and crit values on clan weapons are worth saving, possibly with the absurdly efficient heatsinks, endo fero and XL engines.

I agree with the idea of different, but not necessarily better. You are not mitigating the necessarily better enough in your ideas.

At their stock weight and crit spaces Clan weapons will be OP. Look at the crying over AC spam now, and you want to make it exponentially worse by having it be massive LRM spam? Even lighter AC? Cycle times can do a lot, but only on small maps where a rushing brawler can exploit the gap in fire time before the shooter gets to cover. Your ideas force exposure, which combined with the forced stock armor will make clan mechs dangerous to use, especially at high meta games. They will still mop all holy hell in the pug games though, and that is bad.

If the only argument for stock damage/tonnage or crit values "Iconic Builds" I say to heck with them. That holds no more weight with me than someone's idea of "Traditional Marriage".

The clans need to be available in a way that does not obsolete IS mechs and tech. If that means messing with the tonage in addition to heat, crits, duration, recycle and whatever else so be it.

A lot of your ideas help with that. However the ones you are not touching will be big deals. 2Crit DHS. CASE everywhere XL that don't kill you when the torso goes, half cost Endo and FF for the using of both, and those gawd awful PPC... something needs to give.

I agree. Something's got to give. *You* need to give *up.*

I'm sick of your OP OP OP nonsense, and - AGAIN - I AM ONLY DISCUSSING CLAN WEAPONS. I am not "dodging" Endo. I don't as of yet *care* about Endo. Take this {Scrap} somewhere else.

Also, there is no "gawd" awful PPC, because NO ONE HAS EVEN MENTIONED IT YET. Not the devs, not I. It DOESN'T EXIST YET.

None of my proposed weapon designs are inherently "better." They are inherently "different." You are trolling and badly.

Now, back to your ONLY attempt at staying on-topic and making a reasonable argument:

- CLRM spam. How are people going to "spam" it if hitting anything requires constant tracking skill from the shooter? That's like complaining about "laser" spam. You are shooting blanks with this one.

- EVEN LIGHTER AC?!?! Yes, even lighter AC. *stares* Yes, that is precisely what I said. Plus heavy recoil, slow reloads, and a fairly stiff heat penalty. So, again: lighter AC's? YES.

- My ideas force exposure? You mean, they kind of force you to fight like a Clanner? Y'think? And you're simultaneously complaining that my ideas make Clan weapons "superior?" So, which is it? Come on.

Please stop being pedantic.

[I3lackI2ogue]

Stelar 7, on 31 December 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

If the only argument for stock damage/tonnage or crit values "Iconic Builds" I say to heck with them. That holds no more weight with me than someone's idea of "Traditional Marriage".

oh so youre a liberal progressive. that makes total sense, at least we know we can take whatever you say with a grain of salt.

[WarHawkZero]

How about we bring back the MW2 PPC for the clan version. Giant slow moving ********** (it censors ball?) that do nice damage if they manage to hit something.

Or, a slightly less ridiculous solution might be to make them do splash damage so they still do 15 damage but spread it over several components.

Edited by WarHawkZero, 31 December 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Varent]

Master Maniac, on 31 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I agree. Something's got to give. *You* need to give *up.*

I'm sick of your OP OP OP nonsense, and - AGAIN - I AM ONLY DISCUSSING CLAN WEAPONS. I am not "dodging" Endo. I don't as of yet *care* about Endo. Take this {Scrap} somewhere else.

Also, there is no "gawd" awful PPC, because NO ONE HAS EVEN MENTIONED IT YET. Not the devs, not I. It DOESN'T EXIST YET.

None of my proposed weapon designs are inherently "better." They are inherently "different." You are trolling and badly.

Now, back to your ONLY attempt at staying on-topic and making a reasonable argument:

- CLRM spam. How are people going to "spam" it if hitting anything requires constant tracking skill from the shooter? That's like complaining about "laser" spam. You are shooting blanks with this one.

- EVEN LIGHTER AC?!?! Yes, even lighter AC. *stares* Yes, that is precisely what I said. Plus heavy recoil, slow reloads, and a fairly stiff heat penalty. So, again: lighter AC's? YES.

- My ideas force exposure? You mean, they kind of force you to fight like a Clanner? Y'think? And you're simultaneously complaining that my ideas make Clan weapons "superior?" So, which is it? Come on.

Please stop being pedantic.

sorry dude but this is the reason why these posts belong on the already established clan feedback thread. These ideas are already out there, and no one will still agree on them. This is just further cluttering an already croweded forum in the vague attempt to get some folks on board and looking one direction in a game where you cant get people to agree on ANYTHING.

[Master Maniac]

Now, by popular demand (apparently):

---------------------------------------------------

CLAN ER PPC OH GOSH OH MAN OH GOSH OH MAN OHHH GOSH

---------------------------------------------------

Honestly, this is extremely difficult to address, given the fact that in their current state *standard* PPCs are a mess right now. They are extremely heat inefficient to the point of practical redundancy, given their whopping one point damage enhancement over regular plain-Jane Large Lasers. ER PPCs are a *real* joke, because the extra range, lack of minimal range, and that amazing one point of damage come at the cost of DOUBLE the heat generated. This is in my opinion extremely stupid, because, and let's face it, the standard PPC is a substandard weapon, given the fact that its range is comparable to a standard large laser, and its minimum range is very prohibitive. The ER PPC is what PPCs should be *in general,* and right now it sucks. It sucks bad.

This is why I've avoided considering a Clan version of the weapon, considering the versions we currently have are pretty stinky.

What is the cardinal advantage of a PPC supposed to be? The answer: fast-traveling, precise projectiles with no burn time. Essentially, instant damage.

This has become a cardinal *sin,* thanks to knee-jerk fear reactions to the appearance of slow, shambling 6 PPC Stalker builds. Suddenly, instant damage is an inherently evil thing, and anything that can deliver a single, damaging shot is "overpowered." That's thanks to a small, but vocal minority which I will summarily ignore from this point forward, because these people fail to realize that a 6 PPC Stalker - even before the Ghost Heat "fix" - was pretty much useless in the face of the most basic teamwork and coordination, and prone to overheating.

But how to approach the Clan variant? Well, without getting too deep in the "what's wrong with PPCs" issue, I've come to a conclusion regarding the basic dynamics of how a Clan PPC could work in-game, and how it might behave.

Clan ER PPCs are smaller and lighter than their Inner Sphere counterparts, which make them very effective go-to weapons for 'Mechs bearing single energy hardpoints. They do an impressive 15 points of damage with a single shot within their optimum range. They generate lots of waste heat, however, and their recycle time is very, very lengthy.

Beyond their optimum range, Clan ER PPCs behave much differently from standard ER PPCs. The lance of energy begins to lose cohesion and becomes radically unstable, deviating significantly from its intended point of impact. Speed decreases, and damage falls off dramatically. A Clan ER PPC can deal only 7 points of damage beyond its "long range" factor. The "spiral" effect of the CERPPC's trajectory causes moderate inaccuracy beyond that point - shots can deviate sometimes dramatically from their original point of aim.

To this effect, Clan ER PPCs are very effective close to moderate range "punch" weapons, to be used sparingly in conjunction with a more varied arsenal. The CERPPC is too hot, and too unpredictable at longer ranges to be considered a primary weapon. Thankfully its light weight and compact size make it easy to combine with other weapons systems, even on space-restrictive 'Mechs.

With some practice, pilots can learn to correct for the long range deviation effect, and use the Clan ER PPC as a dedicated long range marksman weapon. Paired with a second CERPPC, long range shooting can be effective, although costly as heat buildup will prohibit rapid follow-up shots. Damage will also inevitably be spread out on the target due to the weapon's inherent inaccuracy beyond its effective range.

At the effective range and below, the Clan ER PPC delivers a perfectly accurate, precision strike for a full 15 points of damage, similar to a Gauss Rifle. The projectile travels faster than a standard PPC's shot, but slower than that of a Gauss Rifle. Cooldown sits at a very restrictive 7 seconds, so pilots will have to plan their shots very carefully should they endeavor to create a Clan ER PPC-centric build.

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

sorry dude but this is the reason why these posts belong on the already established clan feedback thread. These ideas are already out there, and no one will still agree on them. This is just further cluttering an already croweded forum in the vague attempt to get some folks on board and looking one direction in a game where you cant get people to agree on ANYTHING.

Since positive reception seems to be vastly overriding negative reception, and the ratio of posters' good ideas versus bad ones is very positive, I'm going to disregard your criticism and carry on. Thanks.

WarHawkZero, on 31 December 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

How about we bring back the MW2 PPC for the clan version. Giant slow moving ********** (it censors ball?) that do nice damage if they manage to hit something. Or, a slightly less ridiculous solution might be to make them do splash damage so they still do 15 damage but spread it over several components.

That's actually a pretty nifty idea. I forgot how ridiculous the old-fashioned PPC shot looked back in the day. :-) The slow speed would actually preclude any usefulness as a long-range weapon, though. But hey, that's not always a bad thing - just give it a good maximum range to make it possible, if not probable. I like it!

[Varent]

Master Maniac, on 31 December 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Now, by popular demand (apparently):

---------------------------------------------------

CLAN ER PPC OH GOSH OH MAN OH GOSH OH MAN OHHH GOSH

---------------------------------------------------

Honestly, this is extremely difficult to address, given the fact that in their current state *standard* PPCs are a mess right now. They are extremely heat inefficient to the point of practical redundancy, given their whopping one point damage enhancement over regular plain-Jane Large Lasers. ER PPCs are a *real* joke, because the extra range, lack of minimal range, and that amazing one point of damage come at the cost of DOUBLE the heat generated. This is in my opinion extremely stupid, because, and let's face it, the standard PPC is a substandard weapon, given the fact that its range is comparable to a standard large laser, and its minimum range is very prohibitive. The ER PPC is what PPCs should be *in general,* and right now it sucks. It sucks bad.

This is why I've avoided considering a Clan version of the weapon, considering the versions we currently have are pretty stinky.

What is the cardinal advantage of a PPC supposed to be? The answer: fast-traveling, precise projectiles with no burn time. Essentially, instant damage.

This has become a cardinal *sin,* thanks to knee-jerk fear reactions to the appearance of slow, shambling 6 PPC Stalker builds. Suddenly, instant damage is an inherently evil thing, and anything that can deliver a single, damaging shot is "overpowered." That's thanks to a small, but vocal minority which I will summarily ignore from this point forward, because these people fail to realize that a 6 PPC Stalker - even before the Ghost Heat "fix" - was pretty much useless in the face of the most basic teamwork and coordination, and prone to overheating.

But how to approach the Clan variant? Well, without getting too deep in the "what's wrong with PPCs" issue, I've come to a conclusion regarding the basic dynamics of how a Clan PPC could work in-game, and how it might behave.

Clan ER PPCs are smaller and lighter than their Inner Sphere counterparts, which make them very effective go-to weapons for 'Mechs bearing single energy hardpoints. They do an impressive 15 points of damage with a single shot within their optimum range. They generate lots of waste heat, however, and their recycle time is very, very lengthy.

Beyond their optimum range, Clan ER PPCs behave much differently from standard ER PPCs. The lance of energy begins to lose cohesion and becomes radically unstable, deviating significantly from its intended point of impact. Speed decreases, and damage falls off dramatically. A Clan ER PPC can deal only 7 points of damage beyond its "long range" factor. The "spiral" effect of the CERPPC's trajectory causes moderate inaccuracy beyond that point - shots can deviate sometimes dramatically from their original point of aim.

To this effect, Clan ER PPCs are very effective close to moderate range "punch" weapons, to be used sparingly in conjunction with a more varied arsenal. The CERPPC is too hot, and too unpredictable at longer ranges to be considered a primary weapon. Thankfully its light weight and compact size make it easy to combine with other weapons systems, even on space-restrictive 'Mechs.

With some practice, pilots can learn to correct for the long range deviation effect, and use the Clan ER PPC as a dedicated long range marksman weapon. Paired with a second CERPPC, long range shooting can be effective, although costly as heat buildup will prohibit rapid follow-up shots. Damage will also inevitably be spread out on the target due to the weapon's inherent inaccuracy beyond its effective range.

At the effective range and below, the Clan ER PPC delivers a perfectly accurate, precision strike for a full 15 points of damage, similar to a Gauss Rifle. The projectile travels faster than a standard PPC's shot, but slower than that of a Gauss Rifle. Cooldown sits at a very restrictive 7 seconds, so pilots will have to plan their shots very carefully should they endeavor to create a Clan ER PPC-centric build.



Since positive reception seems to be vastly overriding negative reception, and the ratio of posters' good ideas versus bad ones is very positive, I'm going to disregard your criticism and carry on. Thanks.



That's actually a pretty nifty idea. I forgot how ridiculous the old-fashioned PPC shot looked back in the day. :-) The slow speed would actually preclude any usefulness as a long-range weapon, though. But hey, that's not always a bad thing - just give it a good maximum range to make it possible, if not probable. I like it!

its not about criticism. Its about your ideas already being presented in the main thread....

[Stelar 7]

Master Maniac, all you are doing is spewing hyperbole. If you don't change the tonage then boating will be possible in a big, big way. Every mech that could hold an LRM 20 can hold a CLRM 40, Do you see how the number of missles, and thus damage doubled? All the pieces I mention, are for extra weight and crit savings which both make boating, MORE possible.

You are proposing a mechanic that causes exposure, and if you read close I have agreed with you that is a good mechanic. Seriously, take a few minutes and read back I've agreed with you quite a lot. Where we disagree is on the desirability of keeping tonnage and crits as some sacred never to be changed values.

All values on the table, so the results will be balanced, and will not obsolete the IS stuff.

Recoil is only an issue on fast firing ac like the 2, I'm more concerned with 2 and 3 AC 20 or 2 UAC 20 mechs.. recoil won't do dink there.

off topic slightly,

I3lackI2ogue, on 31 December 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

oh so youre a liberal progressive. that makes total sense, at least we know we can take whatever you say with a grain of salt.

You do realize you just defended bigotry to "insult" me right? But yes I am both liberal and progressive. Your belief that those positions undermine my point just makes you look like a fool. Look up the ad hominem fallacy if you want to know why.

[Master Maniac]

Quite doubtful. That thread is a bottomless pit of whining about - last I checked - superfluous nonsense about Clan-on-Clan matches, should Clan Mechs and IS Mechs be allowed to fight each other, lore lore lore, and Endo Endo OP.

So, again, disregarded.

Stelar 7, on 31 December 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Master Maniac, all you are doing is spewing hyperbole. If you don't change the tonage then boating will be possible in a big, big way. Every mech that could hold an LRM 20 can hold a CLRM 40, Do you see how the number of missles, and thus damage doubled? All the pieces I mention, are for extra weight and crit savings which both make boating, MORE possible. You are proposing a mechanic that causes exposure, and if you read close I have agreed with you that is a good mechanic. Seriously, take a few minutes and read back I've agreed with you quite a lot. Where we disagree is on the desirability of keeping tonnage and crits as some sacred never to be changed values. All values on the table, so the results will be balanced, and will not obsolete the IS stuff. Recoil is only an issue on fast firing ac like the 2, I'm more concerned with 2 and 3 AC 20 or 2 UAC 20 mechs.. recoil won't do dink there. off topic slightly, You do realize you just defended bigotry to "insult" me right? But yes I am both liberal and progressive. Your belief that those positions undermine my point just makes you look like a fool. Look up the ad hominem fallacy if you want to know why.

You said "ad hominem." AND you went and spewed politi-{Scrap} trying to start a fire. I've seen trolls like this on Huffington Post.

I just *knew* you were one post away from using the word "bigot." I suspect it will be about two more before you start talking about tinfoil hats.

You're done.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO STAY ON TOPIC (and I suggest you do)

- CLRM 20's can "boat" and do "double damage" IF THE PLAYER IS GOOD ENOUGH TO MANUALLY HOLD LOCK. These are NOT 'fire and forget' weapons. They ALSO spread damage out, even with maximum in-flight cohesion. Also, I said they were light-ER. I didn't say they were LIGHT. You were just saying my idea for Clan LRMs made them useless weapons. Now you're saying they're too powerful? Do you have any conception about how hard it will be to use Clan LRMs with consistent accuracy?

- Recoil with Clan AC's will be much, much worse as the caliber gets higher. This is not shot dispersion I am talking about. I am saying that a shooter's ENTIRE 'Mech will recoil with the shot. The torso will twist and attempt to re-center, and the reticule will deviate substantially from the target, ruining the pilot's aim and forcing compensation. Firing a Clan AC in concert with other weapons will take considerable patience and practice. Firing Clan AC's in MULTIPLES will combine the effect, making recoil a serious problem to contend with. Precision damage will be hard to effect on a moving target, and the challenge increases with both the number and the power of the Clan ACs the player wishes to use in combat.

To combat the recoil, pilots will have to fight the aim disruption proactively with manual mouse movements, which will require skill, or they will have to limit their already slower rate of fire. The IS versions of these weapons will not suffer from these flaws, which stands in their favor.

Edited by Master Maniac, 31 December 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Varent]

the point is, why are you making it harder on the moderators....

the moderators will be the ones to troll through things and put ideas to the devs.

Your making there job harder by creating another thread because... the only reason I can assume being your cocky enough to believe your ideas are better and need there own thread?

[Master Maniac]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

the point is, why are you making it harder on the moderators.... the moderators will be the ones to troll through things and put ideas to the devs. Your making there job harder by creating another thread because... the only reason I can assume being your cocky enough to believe your ideas are better and need there own thread?

Yes, I personally believe I have good ideas, and yes, I personally believe my ideas are worth having their own thread, which is concise, to the point, and easier for people to look through than a massive 90 page whine-fest full of flaming and insults.

That is a feedback thread. It is meant to ask for feedback and responses to their ideas, and their position on Clan Tech as presented in their official release.

This is not feedback. This is an original suggestion.

Also, as an aside, I'm not making *anything* harder for *anyone* (double negative), because nobody (triple negative) is required to read/like/dislike my humble suggestions. They're here if people want to look at them.

Stop spamming, please. I'm not a moderator, and I shouldn't have to tell people to stay on topic.

To those offering constructive criticism, honest ideas, and positive encouragement, thanks again.

Edited by Master Maniac, 31 December 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[SiliconAngel]

this thread doesn't belong on that forum, that one is for giving feed back on their ideas for future clan mech designs. this is op's ideas for the clan mech weapon designs. he is not giving his feedback on their ideas but putting forward his own.

Edited by SiliconAngel, 31 December 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Stelar 7]

Mm I labeled bigotry as bigotry and not even at you. I think you are taking my criticism rather personally. I never called your lrm useless. They are over powered. Holding lock sounds like using lasers now except the damage per ton will be in favor of the lrm by quite a lot.

However I don't think you want an honest discussion you keep accusing me of trolling despite both my moderate tone and agreement with several of your points.

Your critique of the PPC is telling. The Bonus of it is high pinpoint damage and the 6 PPC stalker is a strawman. Play In competitive 12 and count the PPC in use. Scrap weapon my backside.

Your recoil affects follow up shops so more alpha and with more weapons from lower individual requirements and from a more efficient chassis. Your idea will lead to high alpha boats. That is regression from where we are today.

[Master Maniac]

Stelar 7, on 31 December 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Mm I labeled bigotry as bigotry and not even at you. I think you are taking my criticism rather personally. I never called your lrm useless. They are over powered. Holding lock sounds like using lasers now except the damage per ton will be in favor of the lrm by quite a lot.

However I don't think you want an honest discussion you keep accusing me of trolling despite both my moderate tone and agreement with several of your points.

Your critique of the PPC is telling. The Bonus of it is high pinpoint damage and the 6 PPC stalker is a strawman. Play In competitive 12 and count the PPC in use. Scrap weapon my backside.

Your recoil affects follow up shops so more alpha and with more weapons from lower individual requirements and from a more efficient chassis. Your idea will lead to high alpha boats. That is regression from where we are today.

"Strawman." "Ad hominem." "Hyperbole." "Bigotry" "Traditional marriage."

*rubs temples*

Okay. Okay.

Moving right along.

Yes, PPCs are subpar. That is my opinion. I don't *care* about 'competitive 12,' I care about the end user experience. ER PPCs in specific are extremely poor weapons shot-for-shot and ton-for-ton given their high heat and low damage. I can count the number of times in the last month of play (and I play MWO WAY too much, practically to the exclusion of all other games) that I've been killed or even heavily damaged by a PPC of either variant on one hand.

My "recoil" system in no way changes the state of alpha strikes whatsoever. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel, here. People are not going to be more inclined to group weapons together than they were before, nor is the presence of a recoil system going to make alpha strikes more accurate or more effective. This is shameful.

Last time I checked, lasers do not have to arc through the air, travel for multiple seconds to their target, and have to be held with pinpoint precision with the risk of all damage being negated at the slightest twitch.

*returns to rubbing temples*

[Stelar 7]

You may not care about the PPC, and you clearly value your opinion above others, however it's heavy use in competitive play argues strongly that the weapon is not sub par, and is in fact quite good. While you are welcome to your opinion, not all opinions are equal. If you refuse to see the weapon in heavy competitive use as a good weapon I don't know how productive a conversation on balance can be with you.

You are right lasers don't arc through the air, they hit right where you point them, and you have to hold that specific point for a fair bit of time. Your missiles will not need to be that accurate, anywhere on the mech will get a big hit to many locations. Why a big hit? Because there will be room for lots and lots of launchers. That is the consequence of using the original tonnage values. They are half that of their inner sphere counterparts. That means, lots of damage, grouped tightly, per your words, at medium range. The cost, some exposure. That is less of an issue on follow up strikes thanks to the rocking the target will endure.

I never claimed that your system makes alpha strike more accurate, seriously are you reading anything I write? What they don't do is make an alpha strike any less accurate. They do make short duration non-alphas less accurate. That means a smart player should alpha. Hence more alpha strike, with more weapons because of the tonnage and crit savings.

Finally since you are so hung up on Traditional Marriage, how about the argument that we shouldn't change because things weren't changed before? That is what that refers to. Your argument is to not change tonnage because we would be changing tonnage. You need a stronger case than that.