38 replies to this topic

[Firewuff]

It used to be higher its too quick. Add premium time and championmechs aand your talking up to 250k per match... Way too much

[Aim64C]

Firewuff, on 31 December 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

It used to be higher its too quick. Add premium time and championmechs aand your talking up to 250k per match... Way too much

Champion and/or Hero mechs cost roughly $15-40, depending upon what tiers you're buying into and which mech.

Premium time, at its most efficient buy-in, costs $100 per year (plus 1,000 remaining MC to spend on something).

You'll find I've discussed this at length here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3031263

The monetizing structure PGI has used is exceptionally pressuring and aggressive. Rather than paying for convenience or reward, you're paying to avoid punishment.

C-bill rewards could easily double and not cause much of a problem. If someone is paying for Premium Time and for Champion/Hero mechs - I'm not exactly all that concerned that they are going to be looking to buy a new mech bay for his mech after only 20 drops into the game. I'm just going to be happy that it doesn't take me close to 100 to buy a damned XL engine for mechs I've already paid for.

You quickly run into problems when you implement such aggressive monetizing strategies and then balance the game to be the 'average experience' at all of those purchase tiers. By saying: "We think you should have to drop into the game 40 times before you can buy a new 'mech, therefor, that is what the paying player's bonuses will allow" - you immediately create a game where people feel like they have to pay just to play the game despite its free monicker.

Increasing per-match C-bill payouts will only be a step in the right direction. True monetizing reform would require far more adjustments be made to virtually all categories and have new purchasable options (such as 'one day to play with this mech in the mechlab - customize it however you want, as many times as you want, for no charge - permanent changes will require C-bill purchasing, however').

[Modo44]

If you start thinking of a game like it was work, with painful grind and income stats, maybe it is time to stop for a while.

As to your point, this is not a bug, this is deliberate design -- free to play, pay to reduce the grind. Comparing match rewards to a SP campaign setting in a game you had to buy makes no sense. Get premium time and/or a hero mech.

[Firewuff]

Been playing this is since the beginng of the open beta. Once you get a second mech and an xl engine its not really bad. I can fully kit out a mech with dhs and all the weps in a day. I share my xl engines around the only component i think is overpriced at modules.

Btw looking at pgi stats average earning is 80k, so a new xl is WAY less than a 100 match's.

[Reitrix]

I earn an average of 170k in my non Hero 'Mechs such as my K2 or 3D. Even on a loss, ill get around 100k from the damage i dealt. Sometimes I'll have a bad match and get barely more than 50k for the loss, but hey **** happens.

The problem with earnings that we have currently is that Assault/Skirmish/Conquest was never intended to be our main source of income, Community Warfare was where the c-bills were supposed to come from. We don't have that yet due to delays on several key features, but once we get that, our general earnings should go up. Not back to early CB where we made millions per match, that was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much, lol.

[Aim64C]

Modo44, on 31 December 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

If you start thinking of a game like it was work, with painful grind and income stats, maybe it is time to stop for a while.

As to your point, this is not a bug, this is deliberate design -- free to play, pay to reduce the grind. Comparing match rewards to a SP campaign setting in a game you had to buy makes no sense. Get premium time and/or a hero mech.

Every free to play game that has taken that attitude has failed.

Why?

I explained it quite clearly - people want to spend money. If they didn't, the average American would have more than $500 in savings (and he/she doesn't - because money at the end of the month is a loan 'they can afford' or some other frivolous expense).

The number of people who play a game and absolutely refuse to pay for it is quite small. Most people, if they don't care to pay for it, they won't really play it.

[Modo44]

My argument is this: Buying a premium mech or some premium time provides a cheap way to seriously increase your income in MWO. If PGI were to make it easier for 100% free play, they would lose precisely those players you have described -- not the whales, nor people who will not spend a dime either way.

[Bront]

They do keep adding awards, and since at the moment there's nothing to buy other than mechs, eventually folks will run out of things to spend money on. My guess is with CW, we'll see a boost in awards to go along with additional money sinks.

That said, rewards right now are a little on the low side IMHO. They felt about right prior to the 12 man shift.

[SaltBeef]

The people who don't spend a dime only have 4 mechs it takes MC to buy mechbays

[Corvus Antaka]

I think more money should be paid for damage taken, Kills & assists and damage done than is currently rewarded, and overall rewards could go up 10-20% no problem.

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve. ...
OK forget it

Economy is in a good place. No need to buff it.

[Glenfiddich15Yr]

Aim64C, on 01 January 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Every free to play game that has taken that attitude has failed.

Why?

I explained it quite clearly - people want to spend money. If they didn't, the average American would have more than $500 in savings (and he/she doesn't - because money at the end of the month is a loan 'they can afford' or some other frivolous expense).

The number of people who play a game and absolutely refuse to pay for it is quite small. Most people, if they don't care to pay for it, they won't really play it.

I refuse to pay for this game because the prices are ridiculous. With how limited this game presently is, I consider it to be essentially a mini-game. Why would I pay $15+ for a new mech when I can save up and buy one? Why would I pay for decorations for my mech? Why would I pay $100 per year for premium time on a very limited game when I can pay for a game such as WWII Online that has far more features for a similar price? Or why would I pay for this game when I can get something such as Skyrim for $60 (when it was new) that contained over 100 hours of content? I would rather a monthly fee of say $10 per month that gives you the ability to earn every mech then to have individual content to pay for.

As for the C-bill issue. You really cannot compare the original Mechwarrior to this in regards to c-bills (the original is the only other one I've played). In the original, you had to pay to repair your damaged or destroyed mechs. That became very expensive, very fast so it was necessary to be payed more. On a side note, has anyone been able to get anywhere in the original Mechwarrior without using the ALLY cheat (if playing on SNES)? I found the game to be impossible without cheating after the first couple missions...

[Aim64C]

Glenfiddich15Yr, on 01 January 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I refuse to pay for this game because the prices are ridiculous. With how limited this game presently is, I consider it to be essentially a mini-game. Why would I pay $15+ for a new mech when I can save up and buy one? Why would I pay for decorations for my mech? Why would I pay $100 per year for premium time on a very limited game when I can pay for a game such as WWII Online that has far more features for a similar price? Or why would I pay for this game when I can get something such as Skyrim for $60 (when it was new) that contained over 100 hours of content? I would rather a monthly fee of say $10 per month that gives you the ability to earn every mech then to have individual content to pay for.

I'm not necessarily in disagreement with you, here. PGI's pricing needs to be reviewed, as well (that, and their game needs to be just flat-out better - but their track record is to produce shovel-ware).

The point I was making is that you've already mentioned other games that you would rather spend your money on because they offer more gratifying content - IE - better or more fulfilling uses of your time. Why would you play a shell of a game, even a free one, when you can play a more full game that you've already bought?

I play the game occasionally because it's got explosions (and because I paid for portions of it back when I still had faith). But I'm not going to spend any more money on it unless something absolutely miraculous happens with the game in terms of depth and content.

Quote

As for the C-bill issue. You really cannot compare the original Mechwarrior to this in regards to c-bills (the original is the only other one I've played). In the original, you had to pay to repair your damaged or destroyed mechs. That became very expensive, very fast so it was necessary to be payed more. On a side note, has anyone been able to get anywhere in the original Mechwarrior without using the ALLY cheat (if playing on SNES)? I found the game to be impossible without cheating after the first couple missions...

It's been a long, long time since I played the original.

Crescent Hawk's Inception was insanely easy to earn money for, though. Just invest in the 'risky' stocks and walk around in the cities. This was especially effective when running the game, emulated, on a computer about a thousand times more powerful than what it was designed for. Battles that were supposed to be animated and show you what was going on were just blurs intermixed with the few hard-timed events (like laser fire).

Anyway - I also agree, here.

Part of the problem with MWO in terms of economy balancing is that it's essentially Solaris with repair costs waived.

It's exceptionally 'grindy' - but with no point behind it.

Worse - there are few points where more wealthy players can sink their C-bill stocks. Aside from consumable modules - but even those are limited in desirability and utility.

A better environment for MechWarrior would be if it became closer to Command&Conquer: Renegade (Obviously with a Battletech theme). By allowing players to purchase enhancements that benefit the team (collectively and individually) and by implementing repair and re-arm with both higher credit yields and the option to actually play limited combat roles (you can't really play those in the current game - because it's all about destroying the other team in a 1:1 team deathmatch).

Consumable modules could be purchased and used multiple times within the same match (providing a different credit sink, particularly during desperate battles). Forcing higher-end builds to incur higher repair costs (with little/no adjustment in pay-out for objective accomplishments and/or participation) while allowing players to actually survive in a dynamic environment (as opposed to a closed tournament of attrition) would balance out a lot of things.

But I doubt that would happen as it requires a considerable deviation from the current server environment and the current game scripting.

I could be wrong - but I highly doubt we'll see community warfare beyond more than a tally of how many times one house has emerged victorious on one map or another. Minimum viable is the key phrase.

[Tankno]

Oh yeah, the wording in the choices.

Yeah PGI fix this.
No, PGI I am your friend.

All I have to say to this is that I was able to get the D DC within 3 hours of gameplay. I was also able to use the end build I wanted. What I want to addressed is GXP. It is almost impossible to get the module skill tree unlocked. I have played many matches and I'm only sitting at around 4k GXP this isn't even enough to get one of those unlocks. I'm not sure how one would go about making it easier to obtain GXP while making it fair to mech variant specializations. But, this seems to be a more dire problem then "I can't get money quick enough".

[Aim64C]

Tankno, on 01 January 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Oh yeah, the wording in the choices.

Yeah PGI fix this.
No, PGI I am your friend.

All I have to say to this is that I was able to get the D DC within 3 hours of gameplay. I was also able to use the end build I wanted. What I want to addressed is GXP. It is almost impossible to get the module skill tree unlocked. I have played many matches and I'm only sitting at around 4k GXP this isn't even enough to get one of those unlocks. I'm not sure how one would go about making it easier to obtain GXP while making it fair to mech variant specializations. But, this seems to be a more dire problem then "I can't get money quick enough".

Of course you can get a DDC in your first three hours of gameplay.

You get a 'cadet bonus' that pays out something like 8M c-bills over your first 20 matches, or something along those lines. That's actually one of the good decisions by PGI that makes it easier to purchase your first mech.

The thing is that you'll run an average of about 80,000 c-bills per match. Unless you run with champion/hero mechs and premium time (even then, your average will run around 140,000 c-bills or so).

Unless your aspiration is to fill your mech bays with locusts - it will take you 40 drops to get much of anywhere. A DDC at something around 8M c-bills (If I remember correctly - don't have the launcher up at the moment) will run you closer to 100 drops.

Even with premium and champion/phoenix mechs, you're looking at 40-50 drops - which is something in the range of 480-600 minutes - or 8-10 hours of continuous play.

And you can easily dump twice as many c-bills into upgrading and outfitting your mech the way you want it.

But MWO has a substantial problem in that there are no real 'credit sinks' in the game. On one hand - the game is grindy as all holy get-out. You -feel- the grind (largely because there isn't any other supporting content or game mode/objective - just sequential deathmatch to get your machine to work the way you want to). On the other hand - you have players who have been here for a while with tens of millions of C-bills piling up and nothing to really spend them on spare for the occasional module.

It's a one-way dead-end in-game economic model. The longer you stick around, the larger your parts inventory, the more C-bills you have laying around, the less incentive to buy into the game's monetized aspects, and the more detached they become from the newer player experience.

Customizing a lot of mechs is nothing for me, at this point. I've got a modest stockpile of parts stripped from stock and temporary design modifications. I don't have much of a stockpile of engines (other than a few standards) so that ends up being a costly investment in new chassis - but I remember what it was like to build up my Catapults when I first started. And that was back when LRMs were useful and people often complained they were OP (because a few people who would dump twelve tons of ammo into anything with a red box around it could do average damage and get a kill or two - I played a much more personal LRM build that took advantage of the fact that mechs have legs). Oh - and MC yield was roughly twice what it is today.

At that point - the grind was not felt nearly as much. Of course - it could also just be that, back during that time, I still considered the game to be a beta that would become a great game. Faith goes a long way in player experience.

[Tankno]

Well

Aim64C, on 01 January 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Of course you can get a DDC in your first three hours of gameplay.

You get a 'cadet bonus' that pays out something like 8M c-bills over your first 20 matches, or something along those lines. That's actually one of the good decisions by PGI that makes it easier to purchase your first mech.

The thing is that you'll run an average of about 80,000 c-bills per match. Unless you run with champion/hero mechs and premium time (even then, your average will run around 140,000 c-bills or so).

Unless your aspiration is to fill your mech bays with locusts - it will take you 40 drops to get much of anywhere. A DDC at something around 8M c-bills (If I remember correctly - don't have the launcher up at the moment) will run you closer to 100 drops.

Even with premium and champion/phoenix mechs, you're looking at 40-50 drops - which is something in the range of 480-600 minutes - or 8-10 hours of continuous play.

And you can easily dump twice as many c-bills into upgrading and outfitting your mech the way you want it.

I'm not sure if this is your point but are you telling me that the problem you have is that it will take too long?

I don't know when this idea that a player put in a few hour of gameplay and unlocks all facets of the game comes from. You have to understand. That as standard players look at it, the first mech you purchase is 1/4 the total amount of mechs you are allowed. So getting the D DC and then giving it your end build is 1/4 the space allotted. So you are already 1/4 done with what you can do in game.

While it is slow to acquire funds I don't think that is an issue. You should have to work hard to get the heaviest mech in the game. This should be no small fee.

Aim64C, on 01 January 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

But MWO has a substantial problem in that there are no real 'credit sinks' in the game. On one hand - the game is grindy as all holy get-out. You -feel- the grind (largely because there isn't any other supporting content or game mode/objective - just sequential deathmatch to get your machine to work the way you want to). On the other hand - you have players who have been here for a while with tens of millions of C-bills piling up and nothing to really spend them on spare for the occasional module.

It's a one-way dead-end in-game economic model. The longer you stick around, the larger your parts inventory, the more C-bills you have laying around, the less incentive to buy into the game's monetized aspects, and the more detached they become from the newer player experience.

Customizing a lot of mechs is nothing for me, at this point. I've got a modest stockpile of parts stripped from stock and temporary design modifications. I don't have much of a stockpile of engines (other than a few standards) so that ends up being a costly investment in new chassis - but I remember what it was like to build up my Catapults when I first started. And that was back when LRMs were useful and people often complained they were OP (because a few people who would dump twelve tons of ammo into anything with a red box around it could do average damage and get a kill or two - I played a much more personal LRM build that took advantage of the fact that mechs have legs). Oh - and MC yield was roughly twice what it is today.

At that point - the grind was not felt nearly as much. Of course - it could also just be that, back during that time, I still considered the game to be a beta that would become a great game. Faith goes a long way in player experience.

Now you confuse me. You start off by telling me it takes too long to build up currency. Then you tell me you have no where to use the piles of c-bills laying around? So then I'll pressure your point. Why make C-Bill income bigger? So that you can rush to get all your mechs quickly and have large piles of money with which you have nothing to do with? No, increasing the C-Bill income will make it easier to get what you want quickly. That is not because it is hard to get currency, it is because players don't want to invest the time and effort into working for something they want.

Here's a quote from Miguel de Cervante, "Never stand begging for that which you have the power to earn."

Edited by Tankno, 02 January 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[focuspark]

Tankno, on 01 January 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Oh yeah, the wording in the choices.

Yeah PGI fix this.
No, PGI I am your friend.

All I have to say to this is that I was able to get the D DC within 3 hours of gameplay. I was also able to use the end build I wanted. What I want to addressed is GXP. It is almost impossible to get the module skill tree unlocked. I have played many matches and I'm only sitting at around 4k GXP this isn't even enough to get one of those unlocks. I'm not sure how one would go about making it easier to obtain GXP while making it fair to mech variant specializations. But, this seems to be a more dire problem then "I can't get money quick enough".

This whole aspect of the game is under redesign, hopefully it'll suck less for non-paying players once it's completed.

[Nekomimi2]

I was a player that purchases the minimum amount of MC per month. Unfortunately I found that I was being forced into buying mech bays with that MC and not premium time. Because I did not have premium time I did not earn a lot of cBills. Anyways it takes me about a month to earn a middle tier assault mech. By November of 2013 I did not see a reason to pay for the game anymore. So I bought 3000 MC one last time and bought mech bays and decided that would be the final time I spent money on the game. I should run out of mech bays around January 2015 and after that I will play with what I have. That is if the game is still running. I hope PGI and IGP enjoy their premium sportcars, yachts, mansions and fancy vacation resorts bought with the phoenix and clan packages. Hell, if you can get away with the crime you deserve it. Gratz!

[Escef]

Firewuff, on 31 December 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

It used to be higher its too quick. Add premium time and championmechs aand your talking up to 250k per match... Way too much

With a (P) mech and Premium, it's pretty normal to get over 200k c-bills on a decent drop. Hell, earlier today I got 160k with Premium and a 2D Commando.

[DI3T3R]

Nekomimi2, on 04 January 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I was a player that purchases the minimum amount of MC per month.

I bought the second-highest amount, as it gives the second-best MC/money-ratio. Buying the highest one is only marginally better.



That being said, I think the CB-earnings are okay. I earn about 500k per hour, so it takes a bit less than a month to buy a heavy. Seems okay to me.
(I bought two mechs with MC. Not worth it. Already sold one of those for CB.)