184 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Varik Ronain, on 01 January 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Well as NARC is the least used hardpoint use out of everything I tend to agree that they need buffed. Right now though if an enemy mech force is under an ECM bubble it is a lot easier to drop a UAV and light up the DDC and anything else that says ECM to break down the enemy deathball. Even with tag being a beacon to yourself it is still much more usefull than a narc.

That's why we are talking about what could and would actually make it useful and a real hard counter to ecm

[Trauglodyte]

Well, speaking truthfully, the issues with the NARC are more range (450 isn't enough in the grand standing of the game), duration (the damage component needs to go), and overall usage (it makes an ECM covered target targetable but nothing else).

I say:

• Bump the range up to match TAG
  
• Get rid of the damage component and put the duration at 20-30s
  
• Allow the beacon to continue to be negated by ECM (ie, no bonuses allowed) but have it act like a BAP beacon (ie, all mechs within 120m will have their ECM cover negated)

The Beacon itself is a wonderful tool. Its just that it is so limited due to it not actually being helpful in relation to ECM. Being able to target someone that is behind terrain is terrific but only if it is working.

[Mizore]

Alcom Isst, on 31 December 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this.

My immediate ideal NARC:

• 8 shots/ton
  
• 500 m/s projectile speed
  
• 450 m duration
  
• 20 second duration
  
• TAG effects through its duration
  
• TAG effects are canceled out by a neighboring ECM
  
• Disables ECM of target (PPC Style) through its duration

An ECM countering NARC would be a great D-DC counter, though its projectile nature would limit it against fast and evasive ECM Lights and Cicadas, which is absolutely positively fine.

Well, 20 seconds are too short... at least with the slow flight speed of the missiles they have at the moment.
Make it 30 seconds!

And it sounds crazy that NARC now should cancel ECM, although it should be the other way round... but on the other hand, that would be a typical PGI-logic, soooooo... it's ok! XD

Edited by Mizore, 01 January 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[Greyboots]

Reitrix, on 01 January 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

Which is kinda of what Sandpit was getting at. His suggestion would make getting NARC'd quite dangerous, and forcing you to pay attention to any Light 'Mechs in the area or (GASP) use your own Light 'Mechs as Scouts instead of high speed brawlers. Failure to ensure Lights aren't up your teams *** with NARCs would result in a painful hammering by LRM supports.

Sure. But what if I NARC the light on the way through? Did you turn it on it's ear and think about that for a second? It's not a "scout buff" at all. Even ECM protected scouts can be hit with NARC and you now know exactly where they are for the duration and can lob LRMs at them with a 100% tracking bonus without LOS and TAG from another unit. NO scout can take that. They'll get legged and then destroyed unless they can get into cover OR get 1000m from all enemy LRMs. Hiding for extended durations makes it awfully hard to actually scout properly. Even if they manage to hide from the LRMs, they still have a friendly lock on them making them VERY easy to locate and destroy.

I know precisely what he's getting at and it's not what you think he's getting at. What he's asking for is for NARC to, essentially, work like a UAV that can't be countered by ECM (and I have to admit to not knowing if ECM effects a UAV) turning LRMs into SSRMs that don't need LOS from a friendly unit to work Do YOU want a UAV buffed with a fast target lock and +100% tracking bonus following YOUR light mech around? Didn't think so.

It will also improve the effectiveness of other weapons at a range of greater than ECM range because making NARC ignore ECM allows everyone to get a lock, not just missiles. This means that long ranged attackers, like 5 LL stalkers for example, will get their paper doll Vs NARC effected units. In order to get a missile lock, you first have to get a target lock. A target lock from TAG doesn't just let you get a missile lock, it lets you get a target lock, and everything that comes along with it, so that you can get your missile lock.

Did anyone actually THINK about this for a minute before deciding it was a good idea? Because it sort of doesn't look like it.

So yeah, I know what Sandpit is suggesting. I know why. I also know it's got nothing to do with making NARC functional. In fact, it's got nothing to do with NARC or functional scouting at all.

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

That's why we are talking about what could and would actually make it useful and a real hard counter to ecm

THAT is what he wants and he's willing to throw scouts under the bus to get it because they keep killing his 5LL stalker.

ECM already has hard counters, they are called "TAG", ECM and Beagle Active Probe. Use them.

Edited by Greyboots, 01 January 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[Sandpit]

Greyboots, on 01 January 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Sure. But what if I NARC the light on the way through? Did you turn it on it's ear and think about that for a second? It's not a "scout buff" at all. Even ECM protected scouts can be hit with NARC and you now know exactly where they are for the duration and can lob LRMs at them with a 100% tracking bonus without LOS and TAG from another unit. NO scout can take that. They'll get legged and then destroyed unless they can get into cover OR get 1000m from all enemy LRMs. Hiding for extended durations makes it awfully hard to actually scout properly. Even if they manage to hide from the LRMs, they still have a friendly lock on them making them VERY easy to locate and destroy.

I know precisely what he's getting at and it's not what you think he's getting at. What he's asking for is for NARC to, essentially, work like a UAV that can't be countered by ECM (and I have to admit to not knowing if ECM effects a UAV) turning LRMs into SSRMs that don't need LOS from a friendly unit to work Do YOU want a UAV buffed with a fast target lock and +100% tracking bonus following YOUR light mech around? Didn't think so.

It will also improve the effectiveness of other weapons at a range of greater than ECM range because making NARC ignore ECM allows everyone to get a lock, not just missiles. This means that long ranged attackers, like 5 LL stalkers for example, will get their paper doll Vs NARC effected units. In order to get a missile lock, you first have to get a target lock. A target lock from TAG doesn't just let you get a missile lock, it lets you get a target lock, and everything that comes along with it, so that you can get your missile lock.

Did anyone actually THINK about this for a minute before deciding it was a good idea? Because it sort of doesn't look like it.

So yeah, I know what Sandpit is suggesting. I know why. I also know it's got nothing to do with making NARC functional. In fact, it's got nothing to do with NARC or functional scouting at all.



THAT is what he wants and he's willing to throw scouts under the bus to get it because they keep killing his 5LL stalker.

ECM already has hard counters, they are called "TAG", ECM and Beagle Active Probe. Use them.

You can take off your tinfoil hat now
Thank you for your opinions on how to improve narc as opposed to trying to turn a constructive discussion into a conspiracy theory though
Wouldn't it have been more productive to say you didn't like some of the ideas suggested and give the counter points and then make some suggestions on your own ideas as to how to improve it?
I suppose it's easier to just assume everyone has some devious ulterior motive than help give productive ideas though.
Gl&gh sir

[Bobdolemite]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Narc

Fire and it provides friendly missile lock for its duration. Completely negates ECM and lets scouts actually have more use.
Let those little missile hard points on some of the lights be dangerous and a good counter to ECM bubbles. Standing next to your ECM buddy Atlas no longer ensures safety from LRM support mechs
This would change strategies builds and mech usefulness across the board. It would also not involve anything to do with ballistics balance and would immediately offer a ton of changes without actually changing much
Narc is one of those things that needs attention much sooner than later and could use a lot more love

Alcom Isst, on 31 December 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this.

My immediate ideal NARC:

• 8 shots/ton
  
• 500 m/s projectile speed
  
• 450 m duration
  
• 20 second duration
  
• TAG effects through its duration
  
• TAG effects are canceled out by a neighboring ECM
  
• Disables ECM of target (PPC Style) through its duration

An ECM countering NARC would be a great D-DC counter, though its projectile nature would limit it against fast and evasive ECM Lights and Cicadas, which is absolutely positively fine.

I love it, NARC is simply never used due to the dmg component (the equipment and ammo is currently not worth getting 1 salvo at a time)

Also with NARC being universal it will add some seriously needed hard counter to ECM, not to mention making the NARC tubes on lights and mediums into something usable

I do agree with Sandpit tho that it should have TAG benefits and negate ECM in a bubble, this would allow scouts to poke their nose in hit a mech with NARC and run away to save himself while his teammates rack up some damage.

IMO it would seriously change the meta (and in a good way) forcing people out of their ruts and into more progressive / tactical gameplay.

As to this being some kind of disadvantage to ECM lights I just dont see it. Even with direct LOS / TAG / Artemis my hit rate on lights (especially over 130kph) is abysmal. If NARC'd you would do the same thing you always do, run away / get cover. The duration is relatively short, and you would likely outrun most of the missiles. The short range / limited ammo of NARC means the bigger threats will probably take precedence over lighter mechs.

Edited by Bobdolemite, 01 January 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[Noesis]

Bobdolemite, on 01 January 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

I love it, NARC is simply never used due to the dmg component (the equipment and ammo us currently not worth getting 1 salvo at a time)

Also with NARC being universal it will add some seriously needed hard counter to ECM, not to mention making the NARC tubes on lights and mediums into something usable

I do agree with Sandpit tho that it should have TAG benefits and negate ECM in a bubble, this would allow scouts to poke their nose in hit a mech with NARC and run away to save himself while his teammates rack up some damage.

IMO it would seriously change the meta (and in a good way) forcing people out of their ruts and into more progressive / tactical gameplay.

As to this being some kind of disadvantage to ECM lights I just dont see it. Even with direct LOS / TAG / Artemis my hit rate on lights (especially over 130kph) is abysmal. If NARC'd you would do the same thing you always do, run away / get cover. The duration is relatively short, and you would likely outrun most of the missiles. The short range / limited ammo of NARC means the bigger threats will probably take precedence over lighter mechs.

Very measured and astute view.

[Ghogiel]

Alcom Isst, on 31 December 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this.

My immediate ideal NARC:

• 8 shots/ton
  
• 500 m/s projectile speed
  
• 450 m duration
  
• 20 second duration
  
• TAG effects through its duration
  
• TAG effects are canceled out by a neighboring ECM
  
• Disables ECM of target (PPC Style) through its duration

An ECM countering NARC would be a great D-DC counter, though its projectile nature would limit it against fast and evasive ECM Lights and Cicadas, which is absolutely positively fine.

I want to add that if a mech who is narc'd gets hit with PPCs will fry the narc.

[Bobdolemite]

didnt think of this at first but improved NARC as described here would be a wonderful sideloaded buff to LRM's

I am typically inclined to believe that LRMS are comparatively weak when measured against almost any other weapon system. The risk reward is insanely high (especially for PUGs) with even a single ECM sometimes negating most of your effectiveness / potential.

Current hard/soft counters

TAG is a shiny red kill me laser pointer, and its worse the smaller the mech is (self tag is worthless with artemis since direct los already provides full buffs)

BAP only negates one ECM and requires hugging range (forcing lights to expose themselves to direct close range fire just to negate ECM)

PPC - Yah okay thats a pretty effective hard counter, but it does need to be constantly re-applied and with cover they can sit back almost indefinitely inside the bubble.

Result: ECM stays active unless one of two rare situations occurs: a coordinated ecm light push or single ECM vs single ECM cancellation. Both of those are usually only temporary fixes at best

IMO if NARC was changed as described LRM's might not need any buffs at all.

If this was applied I would load up my raven 3-l with TAG, NARC, Arty, Sensor Range, Sensor Decay, and Improved UAV and start pugging (thats a scary thought eh, light scout/spotter pugs)

Edited by Bobdolemite, 01 January 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[Sandpit]

I'd also make it a decent size for being able to be shot off and making the aim in shooting and placing of the narc an important role as well.
Plopping it onto the top of a shoulder? Not nearly as difficult to shoot off by a decent teammate
Pop it just under a cockpit? A bit harder and riskier to try laser removal

[Deathlike]

Guys, NARC does actually counter ECM.

It's just that noone uses it, you would never have known this. Well actually, Thomas has actually posted about this change somewhere along the line, but everyone has forgotten about it.

The biggest issue however is that NARC falls off too easily (damage component) and that the risk-reward to using it isn't very optimal (it's not going to be particularly effective vs lights due to a slow projectile, and not enough ammo to justify usage vs bigger mechs).

So, I'd like to see more NARC boosts.... but Paul.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, NARC counters ECM in that it allows the target to be seen while within the ECM bubble but the beacon doesn't apply any of its bonuses to the user. All you really get is a "hey, I can see you anywhere you go...until you take 20 damage and then you're invisibru again!"

[Noesis]

Please, please, please ....



Convert 6 Tons of useless into a tool that a Light can use, freeing them of the bondage of failed brawls and capping.

Seriously however, more viable E-War tools means more interplay and gaming partnerships being encouraged that gives more emphasis for a scout to be used more in its traditional role and has some possibility of attempting to re-vitalise underused tech (i.e. LRMs). It also means that recon roles have the potential to make use of the needed rewards made available to them due to not achieving as much on the damage/kill spectrum.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 01 January 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Please, please, please ....



Convert 6 Tons of useless into a tool that a Light can use, freeing them of the bondage of failed brawls and capping.

Seriously however, more viable E-War tools means more interplay and gaming partnerships being encouraged that gives more emphasis for a scout to be used more in its traditional role and has some possibility of attempting to re-vitalise underused tech (i.e. LRMs). It also means that recon roles have the potential to make use of the needed rewards made available to them due to not achieving as much on the damage/kill spectrum.

This.... On so many levels...

[Sandpit]

Exactly

Buffing something like this just slightly has major ramifications and changes to the game and actually starts the steps to making information warfare a tactical issue as well as making more mechs and loadouts viable and practical

A single change won't transform a lot but it's a good step in the right direction to having counters to things without nerfing everything into easy mode

Deeper levels of stuff like this are what will morph this back into the thinking man's shooter in my opinion

[Yiazmat]

including what Alcom Isstsuggested, also needs a Fire And Forget feature. Make it like a single target UAV. so when you hit someone with it, you don't need to maintain the lock for LRM support, the narc beacon keeps the lock itself (like a uav above would) this ALONE would give great validity to the whole system.

[Sandpit]

Yiazmat, on 01 January 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

including what Alcom Isstsuggested, also needs a Fire And Forget feature. Make it like a single target UAV. so when you hit someone with it, you don't need to maintain the lock for LRM support, the narc beacon keeps the lock itself (like a uav above would) this ALONE would give great validity to the whole system.

That's actually what most of us are suggesting

[Dirus Nigh]

ECM is supposed to be protection against NARC. To make NARC cancel ECM would be turning the whole thing around. besides NARC is a small missile with a beacon on the nose. It does not have the power to cut through the jamming.

What would be better is if ECM did not have the 550m anti targeting ability.

My changes to NARC.

NARC beacons last 30 seconds

The NARC beacon is destroyed when the location it is attached to is destroyed.

6 shots per ton.

A yellow NARC icon on the target box.

NARCed targets get a yellow Icon around them on both the mini and battlemaps.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 02 January 2014 - 12:45 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Narc

Fire and it provides friendly missile lock for its duration. Completely negates ECM and lets scouts actually have more use.
Let those little missile hard points on some of the lights be dangerous and a good counter to ECM bubbles. Standing next to your ECM buddy Atlas no longer ensures safety from LRM support mechs
This would change strategies builds and mech usefulness across the board. It would also not involve anything to do with ballistics balance and would immediately offer a ton of changes without actually changing much
Narc is one of those things that needs attention much sooner than later and could use a lot more love

That's what it actually does, right now.

The only problem is: A short duration, and it is also removed after the targeted mech has taken some damage.

The problem is that it's really heavy, its range is short, and its projectile is slow. In any situation where a light mech could use Narc, it can also use TAG. TAG has the drawback of needing constant aiming, but it has the advantage of only taken 1 ton away from your mech, and due to the time and damage limitations of Narc, you need to reapply Narc so often that TAG is in practice just more effective.

In its current state, Narc would need to weight 1 ton or so to be useful.

Remove the damage limitation, and increase the Narc duration to 3 minutes, Narc might become a very feared weapon and intiiate a new LRM Beta. I'd like to see that happen, just for 2 weeks, and see if it's excessive or would make it just right.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Narc

Fire and it provides friendly missile lock for its duration. Completely negates ECM and lets scouts actually have more use.
Let those little missile hard points on some of the lights be dangerous and a good counter to ECM bubbles. Standing next to your ECM buddy Atlas no longer ensures safety from LRM support mechs
This would change strategies builds and mech usefulness across the board. It would also not involve anything to do with ballistics balance and would immediately offer a ton of changes without actually changing much
Narc is one of those things that needs attention much sooner than later and could use a lot more love

Boo yah!