20 replies to this topic

[Frith]

I'll say this up front; I don't claim to be some kind of l33t master mech pilot. I've become better, starting to average decent amounts of damage and able to fit my mechs to best match my style.

But I've been seeing something recently that is really starting to annoy me. I call it the "Lemming Tactic" or the "Lemming Rush." Basically it's after a drop, someone says "Form up," and every pilot rushes as fast as possible to some point on the map to join the group. Often these pilots will line up at choke points, front to back, and fight the enemy one at a time. It's as if tactics don't really matter and a mindless push to some point is the goal. People seem to think that every map has a formula that must be followed - "If we're dropped on planet X, then we must proceed to point Y and slug it out in a group." Some people call this "hunting," I just call it lack of imagination and no thought for tactics at all.

There have been several drops recently where I've avoided the Lemming Tactic and moved to defend the alternate attack route. Often there is one other pilot who has had the same idea. We often are overrun quickly, and despite my advice on comms, "Enemy mechs coming through to coordinates XYZ," the hunters ignore the enemy thrust and usually continue fighting in their group.

Folks, I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but we are divided into lances for a reason. Four mechs using cover can stall an attack until help can arrive. Marching off like lemmings might seem like a good idea if you think you're simply grinding XP and hoping for a win, but it's not really tactics. Just because we're mostly in random teams and don't have a leader we know and trust is not a reason to not fight smart.

I apologise if anyone is offended my my little rant. No, actually I don't. Because the way people are fighting is stupid. I'm claming credit for coining the term "Lemming Tactic" to describe this lack of tactics. People, can we please try to look at the map and try to cooperate on ideas, instead of just rushing off in a group, like lemmings? I think it would make the game a lot more enjoyable if people would think about tactics instead of just running to a map point to grind.

Frith

Edited by Frith, 04 January 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

I'm not offended by what you say, but the dynamics of the game right now favor numbers. That's why teams clump. It's not about the point, necessarily.

[Modo44]

If you split up and the other team does not, you end up with 4 vs 8 and even 4 vs 12 fights, which lead to quick losses. This is very basic math. Only very few premades can pull that and still win. Yes, lots of mechs in one spot creates its own problems (hello, arty strikes), but those are lesser problems -- they have more to do with individual player skill within a good strategy.

[sneeking]

they can clump in some more than unfortunate locations and realy gimp your build ( what happens if your all lrm ) ant they all want to go underground ?

your kind of stuffed.

im often in my pult a1 thinking ( no guys don't go in there ) but like a good lemming I must follow, even if I can't get an lrm out from among those rocks or buildings.

Edited by sneeking, 05 January 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

It bothers me most because I tend to be in fast Mediums, and thus end up at the front of the pack. I'll be running around trying to get a decent vantage point on the enemy, and then realise I have 8+ mechs trucking along behind me, snaking around the map. My favourite was a recent game on River City; my team ended up with every single mech atop the citadel, jammed in and easy prey for arty strikes and LRMs.

I mean, come on. Exercise some thought.

[sneeking]

what the hell is easy prey for lrm on river city ?

I had a terible run on it last night spent over 1600 rockets for under 300 dmg ( too much cover )

[cleghorn6]

I agree that it's not very interesting but your primary problem is that it's effective. When you have a group of 12 'mech pilots of varying skill levels, the "death-ball" is most often the most effective tactic. With an even effective skill level (which is what we have to assume the matchmaker is aiming for) anything other than death-ball vs death-ball will lose, the only variation is how fast it loses. "PUG flower"* loses fast. Lance tactics lose slightly slower.

If you ball it up and go rolling, at least you get a reasonably even chance at it.



* This awesome name comes from Psikez, in a thread I started which I can no longer link directly to. Well played, sir.

Edited by cleghorn6, 05 January 2014 - 04:23 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Despite the fact it's become the "in" thing to denigrate common sense by applying the term "death ball" as if it was a bad thing, one of the most basic tactical doctrines is do not split your force in the face of the enemy.

Most of the common places people congregate to on the maps are for solid tactical reasons that have filtered down over time from those that actually know what they are doing. The problem usually isn't where they go, but that they don't have a clue what to do once they get there.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

sneeking, on 05 January 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

what the hell is easy prey for lrm on river city ?

Say, four Assault mechs trapped against the wall of the citadel in clear view of the enemy, unable to move because they keep clipping into each other. The fact that two of them started returning fire at the enemy only to hit each other didn't help, either.

OneEyed Jack, on 05 January 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

The problem usually isn't where they go, but that they don't have a clue what to do once they get there.

Hence this, sneeking. Holding the citadel isn't necessarily a bad idea... for a lance. Even more than a lance. But when you crowd each other to the point where no one can fire safely, or even move, you f***ed up.

[FriarShaggy]

I run Lrm boats. I goto where the pack is cause i NEED backup. In case a light or 2 come calling. As for common sense tactics...Well Those above me gave some valid points. Another reason is. New (b)s need experience fighting as a group..

The 1 minor complaint i have is thermal and river city night maps. Um nightvision HELLO??? You'd be surprised how many idiots don't/can't see in river city night..Oh i'm sure i'll get there's a reason for it. Like i run into building i didn't know was there cause i can't see them. That drives me bonkers

Friar.

Edited by FriarShaggy, 05 January 2014 - 06:02 AM.

[sneeking]

they have night vision all wrong and I try not to turn it on unless my foot is hooked on some piece of ridiculous scenery becuse strangely its only good for looking at your kneecaps...

[1453 R]

There are several problems with remaining in individual lances rather than clumping together into a giant deathball.

Problem one is that assignment to a lance, in a pug group, is randomly arbitrary. The game will stick a Commando, a Catapult, a Shadow Hawk and a Highlander in the same lance without a care in the world. There's really no way for that lance to work as an effective unit; trying to operate independently of the seething mass will generally just get them killed Yes, company commanders can reorganize their lances. Realistically, how often do you see that happen? I have yet to see it happen once.


Problem two is that effectively utilizing distributed forces on the battlefield requires at least some level of timing, communication, and coordination between those disparate forces. There's a reason most historical armies and historical battles were, effectively, gigantic medieval deathballs and their tactics revolved around finding as many ways as possible to trick their enemy by any means necessary into fighting their deathball. Superior numbers has always been one of the most basic, most effective advantages in combat, and it's also the best way to make use of forces without effective communication. Really, only very recently have armies and actual military units been able to utilize decentralized tactics on a wide scale successfully, and even then, tank math is a thing. Yes, a decentralized unit can smash a deathball...if its members are all trained to use proper strategies and tactics, work together without a second thought, and have a well-established communications net up. How many pug companies have those?

It is an unfortunate fact that the nature of a pug drop favors deathball-style combat. Numbers offer both protection and advantage; no amount of armor works better than the enemy having someone else to shoot at.

[Viken]

I'm one of the people who tells my team to group up. Why? Because too many times, I've seen my team string out into ones and twos. Too many times they've walked into the enemy single file, getting obliterated. Too many times has there been no teamwork, no backup, no covering fire. It's a game, but it feels better to win than to lose, so if you can get your team to work together and get the win, do it.

If you'd like to see and participate in real strategy, I'd suggest joining a group of friends, a company, a merc corps, anything. That way you can have real lances made, have voice communication, and have respect amongst your squad instead of the random disdain that PUGs always have.

[sneeking]

the only time iv seen lances shuftled is that tk troll dude who spins the ready roster like a roulette wheel, thats the only time iv seen anyone change it.

fool put himself in my lance last time I seen it....

lol

[Maver0ick]

Frith, on 04 January 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

We often are overrun quickly ...

This is why people people form up.

I agree that lining up while the first 1-2 friendlies get shot at by the entire enemy team is not the ideal scenario. And some maps offer excellent vantage points for the team to set up kill zones that are not typically employed by the blob. Sometimes independent lance operations work well but the frequency of success happens more often in Premades because they can coordinate the appropriate mech combos to bring before launching, because they can decide when to fight and when to flee faster and because they can focus fire a little bit better.

Frith, on 04 January 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

... the hunters ignore the enemy thrust and usually continue fighting in their group.

If you expect people to abandon a fight against a numerically inferior enemy group to fight a numerically superior group, then your expectations are too high.

[Frith]

Viken, on 05 January 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm one of the people who tells my team to group up. Why? Because too many times, I've seen my team string out into ones and twos. Too many times they've walked into the enemy single file, getting obliterated. Too many times has there been no teamwork, no backup, no covering fire. It's a game, but it feels better to win than to lose, so if you can get your team to work together and get the win, do it.

If you'd like to see and participate in real strategy, I'd suggest joining a group of friends, a company, a merc corps, anything. That way you can have real lances made, have voice communication, and have respect amongst your squad instead of the random disdain that PUGs always have.

Lots of good points in the replies here. I also see people walking into a battle single-file, and often send the message, "shoulder to shoulder is better than front to back," but I don't know if anyone ever pays attention. I've also tried to encourage people to adopt a "battle buddy," stay with that buddy, and shoot the same targets. Sometimes it worked well, but I got flamed enough I stopped suggesting it.

Good advice Viken, about joining a group. I joined one way back when I started playing, and they were worse than a random gaggle and I left them. I'll consider it again.

Frith

[Barkem Squirrel]

With the use of lances you can blunt an attack with one lance while the other two flank to attack from a better position. This give the other team a few options, and the biggest one is to get out of the kill zone. They are between two forces in a cross fire.

The other option is a for the initial contact lance to draw the other side in to the kill zone by giving ground and time. This is more of an ambush, but serves the same purpose, make the other team take fire from two directions.

The larger maps this works good, but on the two river city and frozen colony maps it can also work. These maps do end up in death balls from time to time.

Look at Alpine conquest now, it forces maneuver.

[Maerawn]

Honestly, i dont mind the death ball mentality in pugs. Its the nature of the beast, little to no coms, and no organization to the lance configurations. In my 12 mans its a different story, but pugs arent 12 mans and i would never expect them to be.

My only issue with the "deathball" is that for some reason people who play this game have the worst ADHD i have ever seen. One locust/jenner/spider/mando/raven comes sprinting through that deathball and SQUIRREL!!!!!!

its like the damn dog from "Up", and once the SQUIRREL!!!! is noticed, especially if its a nimble one like a locust, everyone turns into the freaking DODO from ice age.... MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE, falling all over one another to get a shot at the squirrel, now there is no death ball, no tactics, no coms, no coordinated effort once so ever, and the opposing team comes in for a mop up since everyone has there back turned...

Why???? i think it has something to do with the pointless K/D ratio since its easier to kill a locust then go toe to toe with a DDC....

[Bront]

Grouping has some advantages, in that you can't get picked off by a superior group and being able to focus fire more effectively.

THat said, yes, many players don't play well in group tactics. They clog thoughways, they don't support each other, and it's hard to focus fire if you're not on voice chat. I've said it before, but often the difference in being Braveheart and being Leroy Jenkins is if the PUGs follow you when you charge. Occasionall, I've done both in the same match (The PUGs charged i immediatey after I did and died).

[Kjudoon]

Frith, on 04 January 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'll say this up front; I don't claim to be some kind of l33t master mech pilot. I've become better, starting to average decent amounts of damage and able to fit my mechs to best match my style.

But I've been seeing something recently that is really starting to annoy me. I call it the "Lemming Tactic" or the "Lemming Rush." Basically it's after a drop, someone says "Form up," and every pilot rushes as fast as possible to some point on the map to join the group. Often these pilots will line up at choke points, front to back, and fight the enemy one at a time. It's as if tactics don't really matter and a mindless push to some point is the goal. People seem to think that every map has a formula that must be followed - "If we're dropped on planet X, then we must proceed to point Y and slug it out in a group." Some people call this "hunting," I just call it lack of imagination and no thought for tactics at all.

There have been several drops recently where I've avoided the Lemming Tactic and moved to defend the alternate attack route. Often there is one other pilot who has had the same idea. We often are overrun quickly, and despite my advice on comms, "Enemy mechs coming through to coordinates XYZ," the hunters ignore the enemy thrust and usually continue fighting in their group.

Folks, I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but we are divided into lances for a reason. Four mechs using cover can stall an attack until help can arrive. Marching off like lemmings might seem like a good idea if you think you're simply grinding XP and hoping for a win, but it's not really tactics. Just because we're mostly in random teams and don't have a leader we know and trust is not a reason to not fight smart.

I apologise if anyone is offended my my little rant. No, actually I don't. Because the way people are fighting is stupid. I'm claming credit for coining the term "Lemming Tactic" to describe this lack of tactics. People, can we please try to look at the map and try to cooperate on ideas, instead of just rushing off in a group, like lemmings? I think it would make the game a lot more enjoyable if people would think about tactics instead of just running to a map point to grind.

Frith

Edited by Kjudoon, 05 January 2014 - 09:49 AM.