18 replies to this topic

[mikelovskij]

Hi, i'm quite a new player and i have finally mastered my first 3 mechs (3 hunchbacks) and I'm collecting c-bills for buying a different one. I wanted to try a heavier mech and I'm undecided between a CTF-3D, a Victor (which one?) or maybe a Highlander (even if i do not like very much how slow the trial highlander is).
Which are the main differences in viable builds and in gameplay between these three mechs?

[xMintaka]

The decision is based mainly on how fast you want to go.

The Cataphract is the best heavy, and the title for best assault is tied between the Highlander and the Victor.

All three can run the meta-poptart builds, and all three have variants that can use AC20's. From experience though, if you're into brawling, the CTF might not be a good choice. It's almost impossible to miss the side torso's on it, which is a death sentence if you like XL engines. Even if you run a standard engine, it's very likely that you'll lose your RT pretty quickly in a brawl. CTF's, imo, work best as fire support and pop-tarts. I've had some success with a fast (80ish kph) flanker CTF too.

The Victor is one of my favourite mechs. It brawls surprisingly well with an XL, which means you can be moving at heavy mech speeds in an assault. 78kph with a 40 point alpha all to one component is pretty nasty. Almost all of the firepower is contained in the arms though, so you have next to no zombie potential unless you count a few SRM's in the torso. That being said, I've been thoroughly enjoying my Dragon Slayer with 2 AC5's, one LL, two Mlas and ASRM10. It all depends on whether or not you like SRM's enough to deal with some of your shots not registering.

The question is, how much do you value speed? The CTF and Victor are going to be significantly faster than the Highlander, but the Highlander naturally has much more armour.

If you do go for the Victor, the VTR-9S and VTR-9B are the better options due to being able to mount an AC20. But you'll need to buy the -K anyway to elite the better models, unless you spend money on the Dragon Slayer (it's superb).


Edit: I didn't address the Highlander part of your question, as I've never used one aside from the trial which I did not enjoy.

Edited by Lunatech, 05 January 2014 - 04:16 AM.

[mikelovskij]

Lunatech, on 05 January 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

The decision is based mainly on how fast you want to go.

The Cataphract is the best heavy, and the title for best assault is tied between the Highlander and the Victor.

All three can run the meta-poptart builds, and all three have variants that can use AC20's. From experience though, if you're into brawling, the CTF might not be a good choice. It's almost impossible to miss the side torso's on it, which is a death sentence if you like XL engines. Even if you run a standard engine, it's very likely that you'll lose your RT pretty quickly in a brawl. CTF's, imo, work best as fire support and pop-tarts. I've had some success with a fast (80ish kph) flanker CTF too.

The Victor is one of my favourite mechs. It brawls surprisingly well with an XL, which means you can be moving at heavy mech speeds in an assault. 78kph with a 40 point alpha all to one component is pretty nasty. Almost all of the firepower is contained in the arms though, so you have next to no zombie potential unless you count a few SRM's in the torso. That being said, I've been thoroughly enjoying my Dragon Slayer with 2 AC5's, one LL, two Mlas and ASRM10. It all depends on whether or not you like SRM's enough to deal with some of your shots not registering.

The question is, how much do you value speed? The CTF and Victor are going to be significantly faster than the Highlander, but the Highlander naturally has much more armour.

If you do go for the Victor, the VTR-9S and VTR-9B are the better options due to being able to mount an AC20. But you'll need to buy the -K anyway to elite the better models, unless you spend money on the Dragon Slayer (it's superb).


Edit: I didn't address the Highlander part of your question, as I've never used one aside from the trial which I did not enjoy.

Thanks for the advice, when piloting my hunchies I like them to be as fast as possible so I can reposition and get cover when focused quickly but I do not know how much speed is important in a mech who can sustain some more hits before losing 80% of its weapons. Since I do not know almost anything about heavier mech fights and which style i prefer I'd like the mech to be able to fight in different ways (for example one variant good for brawling, one for sniping, one for dakka etc..).
The only weapon I know i do not like very much at the moment are srm missiles, too difficoult to hit a moving target with them and even when I hit, the damage is too spread around even if i have artemis and the target is stationary. I feel much more effective when i play with my 9 ML HBK-4P than with my HBK-SP.

p.s. Also i probably won't buy a hero mech, if I buy some MC i will spend them in mechbays.

[Modo44]

Of those three, the Victor is the most versatile -- providing a great speed, armor, and firepower mix. The B and S variants can take an AC20 on the arm, so those are recommended first.

The Carrylander (733C) is the strongest mech in MWO at the moment. However, it is slow. It feels sluggish even with a 325 engine and elite unlocks. This is not a deal breaker, but it would mean a steeper learning curve, and it would be painful at least until Speed Tweak.

The Cataphract 3D's only advantage vs the Victor is the ability to take a standard engine (i.e. relatively cheap build) with reasonable speed. It is a great heavy mech, but worse than the Victor in almost any aspect.

[Wintersdark]

I'd go victor. I'm personally a huge HGN fan, but the Victor is an excellent mech and can be built in a number of ways. If you find you're less interested in speed and want more armor, you can go to hgns later, but the Victor will work for you in the mean time.

I'd you go hgn and decide they're too slow, you'll have wasted a lot of cbills.

[Unnatural Growth]

My vote would be Cataphracts first. Then decide what assault mech after eliting 3 'phracts. As you go up the chassis scale, you get focus fired on sooner.

Basic rule of combat: Try not to look important.

You will get more attention in a 'phract (or other heavy for that matter) than you got in your Hunchies. A 'phract is a serious threat on the battlefield, so the enemy will react accordingly.

I went Light>>medium>>heavy>>assault when I started.

Cataphracts are a great chassis. Some don't like them, but most who give them a try do. Folks make a bunch of noise about it's low slung arm weapons. Not that it's not true, but it's something to keep in mind and train yourself to position better. Btw, the torso mounted cannon is roughly cockpit height, so if you can see it, you can usually hit it.

There have been walls of text written about the 'phracts in the "Mechs & Loadout" forum.

But for 'phracts, I at least recommend one of the being the 3D. I went 3D, 2X, and 4X. The 3D is the variant with 2 ballistic, 4 energy, hardpoints and JJ's. The 2X has 1 ballistic, 3 energy and 2 missile hardpoints. The 4X is the slowest 'phract, which is the only reason I sold mine. But the 4X has 4 ballistic mounts, .... sweet baby James that is some dakka! 4 AC 5's or 4 UAC 5's....mmm....mmmm....good.

There is a Hero 'phract too. I've never tried it. Folks say it's good, one of the best Hero's in game, but it's hard for me to put away my 3D when I want to run a 'phract.

[xMintaka]

mikelovskij, on 05 January 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Thanks for the advice, when piloting my hunchies I like them to be as fast as possible so I can reposition and get cover when focused quickly but I do not know how much speed is important in a mech who can sustain some more hits before losing 80% of its weapons. Since I do not know almost anything about heavier mech fights and which style i prefer I'd like the mech to be able to fight in different ways (for example one variant good for brawling, one for sniping, one for dakka etc..).
The only weapon I know i do not like very much at the moment are srm missiles, too difficoult to hit a moving target with them and even when I hit, the damage is too spread around even if i have artemis and the target is stationary. I feel much more effective when i play with my 9 ML HBK-4P than with my HBK-SP.

p.s. Also i probably won't buy a hero mech, if I buy some MC i will spend them in mechbays.

Based on what you said here, then definitely a Victor. While you may be able to obtain higher speeds in a CTF, you'll be able to outgun more mechs in the VTR.

To complicate matters though, the CTF is probably the more varied chassis. You can laser boat on one, pop-tart snipe with another, provide crippling fire support (4x AC5's are epic) with another, etc. That said, the VTR is possible to build in a variety of ways, and all the variants have jumpjets which is a huge bonus. On top of this, you may struggle with the low mounted hardpoints on the CTF after having piloted a Hunchie. The VTR suffers somewhat from this problem too, but it's less pronounced and, again, you have jumpjets on all the variants to alleviate this problem somewhat.

As a final point, there is a substantial downside to the Victor. That is, cost. This is one of the more commonly seen builds, and, as you can see it is massively expensive. The XL350 is a good engine to have for the future, but the up front cost is very off putting.

Edit: OldOrgandonor makes a valid point. Piloting a Victor, especially with the build posted above, means that if you make a wrong move, you're going to find nearly every enemy mech firing on you. It'll teach you a lot, but it may well be frustrating (certainly is for me) to do less damage in an Assault than you do in a Medium, simply because you're the target of focus fire. Yes, even in uncoordinated pug matches.

Edited by Lunatech, 05 January 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Turist0AT]

Only highlander i like is Heavy Metal (to bad it cant pack AC-20) the others have missile arm wich is just wrong.

Take Victor 9s or 9b. But Phracts are a solid choice. You cant go wrong.

How was the hunchies? (from a new player perspective)

Edited by Turist0AT, 05 January 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Bront]

Victors are nice. One of my favorite mechs. Arm hardpoints make aiming easy and responsive, good mix of balistics, energy, and missiles allows for some varied loadouts. Spreads damage nicely but works well with an XL engine, and can mount an AC20.

I loved the 9K when Gauss was usable in a brawl, but now the 9K is OK, though the AC10 3LL build I've been running still wrecks things (I preferred my Gauss, 3M, SMR6, SRM4 build though). The 9S is probably the best, able to mount 2 UAC5s or an AC20, with 2 energy weapons and 3 missiles. The 9B is OK, but it's only real advantage over the 9S is the a third balistic slot vs a 3rd missile slot, and that requires you to run either MGs or AC2s in some fassion to use, which are OK builds, but I think I'd rather have a build with 3 streaks if it came to that.

I'm new to Cataphrats, have owned a 4X, 2X, Ilya, and 3D. The Ilya and 3D are the cream of the crop, but the 4X was extremely slow, and the 2X was an OK mini-atlas, but I find the Cataphrat's CT gets hit very easy, so it doesn't spread damage as well as a victor. Beyond that, every Victor can jump, where as the 3D is the only phrat that can, and that can make a huge difference. I also find that the 3D requires some advanced tactical knowledge to use, where as the Victor can be played as a pretty simple brawler and learn to take advantage of the advanced tactical knowledge as you grow.

So, my recomendation for a new player is Victor > Cataphrat.

That said, I would try to buy all 3, though you'll have to buy either 1-2 more mech bays and/or sell 1-2 hunchies so you can own all 3 victors at the same time.

[mikelovskij]

Lunatech, on 05 January 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Based on what you said here, then definitely a Victor. While you may be able to obtain higher speeds in a CTF, you'll be able to outgun more mechs in the VTR.

To complicate matters though, the CTF is probably the more varied chassis. You can laser boat on one, pop-tart snipe with another, provide crippling fire support (4x AC5's are epic) with another, etc. That said, the VTR is possible to build in a variety of ways, and all the variants have jumpjets which is a huge bonus. On top of this, you may struggle with the low mounted hardpoints on the CTF after having piloted a Hunchie. The VTR suffers somewhat from this problem too, but it's less pronounced and, again, you have jumpjets on all the variants to alleviate this problem somewhat.

As a final point, there is a substantial downside to the Victor. That is, cost. This is one of the more commonly seen builds, and, as you can see it is massively expensive. The XL350 is a good engine to have for the future, but the up front cost is very off putting.

Edit: OldOrgandonor makes a valid point. Piloting a Victor, especially with the build posted above, means that if you make a wrong move, you're going to find nearly every enemy mech firing on you. It'll teach you a lot, but it may well be frustrating (certainly is for me) to do less damage in an Assault than you do in a Medium, simply because you're the target of focus fire. Yes, even in uncoordinated pug matches.

Welp, I want another week of free premium! 16 millions is qute a lot, at the moment I have about 5 but I'm used in grinding in other games where things are even slower to obtain than in this game so I think I'll wait a bit and go for the Victor.

Turist0AT, on 05 January 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Only highlander i like is Heavy Metal (to bad it cant pack AC-20) the others have missile arm wich is just wrong.

Take Victor 9s or 9b. But Phracts are a solid choice. You cant go wrong.

How was the hunchies? (from a new player perspective)

Well, the thing i like most about the hunchies is the fact that i can mount a lot of weapons with respect to similar tonnage mechs and sometimes i end the game having dealt a lot of damage (4-500) but when this happens most of time I think it is more due to the enemy stupidity than to my own skill, for example sometime I'm able to get to the back of some stationary enemy then I shoot 45 damage in their back and, since the lasers do not shake and do not make a lot of noise, the enemy I just hit just stays there, firing to whatever he has in front instead of turning back and react, also a lot of times I lose my left torso before my right because the enemy has {Scrap} aim (non that I'm better). When I instead find good opponents or I'm in a dire situation I feel that i do not have enough firepower or armor to compensate the lack of speed compared for example to a jenner with 6 ML,jj and 50 kph more than me. (even if considering my "superb" piloting skill I'm quite sure more speed would only make me get stuck in something sooner).

[Turist0AT]

Well if you want to hit well above your tonnage then you are looking in the right direction.
Phracts, victors and Highlanders can pack allot of firepower. But even Kintaros and Shawks and Orion. As i said earlier highlander has a missile arm witch is useless.
Keep away from Jäger, they are light, the only thing they can do well is AC-40(Booooring and short range).
Phracts requre XL to get those monster builds. Victors and Highlanders can have STD engine, pack allot of heat and have JJ. But Highlanders JJ are twice as heavy as Victors.

But if you like lazors why not stalkers? 6 lazers and 5 missiles. Very durble with STD.

Get a Victor 9B or S if you want a balistic arm, laser arm and missile torso, std engine and Jay Jays. But if you want more balistics or more lasers then youll need to look at other mechs. Phracts can do it all, from energy heavy to balistic heavy variants, lots of flexibility that you dont get with Victors and highlanders.

Quickdraw 5K can jump high(33m) move fast(no, not that fast) and pack 6 lasers, it will run cooler than your hunchie because of the bigger engine and be more manuverble thx to JJ.

What i run on the said mechs:
CTF-3D is packing 2 Gausses and a ERPPC
VTR-9B is packing 2 Ultras(or AC-20) and 2 ERPPC
Heavy Metal: 2AC-5 with 2ERPPC(or 3LL) runs cooler than victor.
for reference
Firebrand: AC-20 AC-10 ERPPC (Best Jäger)
ILYA: 3 AC-10s (Best phract)

Edited by Turist0AT, 05 January 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[xMintaka]

mikelovskij, on 05 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Well, the thing i like most about the hunchies is the fact that i can mount a lot of weapons with respect to similar tonnage mechs and sometimes i end the game having dealt a lot of damage (4-500) but when this happens most of time I think it is more due to the enemy stupidity than to my own skill, for example sometime I'm able to get to the back of some stationary enemy then I shoot 45 damage in their back and, since the lasers do not shake and do not make a lot of noise, the enemy I just hit just stays there, firing to whatever he has in front instead of turning back and react, also a lot of times I lose my left torso before my right because the enemy has {Scrap} aim (non that I'm better). When I instead find good opponents or I'm in a dire situation I feel that i do not have enough firepower or armor to compensate the lack of speed compared for example to a jenner with 6 ML,jj and 50 kph more than me. (even if considering my "superb" piloting skill I'm quite sure more speed would only make me get stuck in something sooner).

I wouldn't say such things about your skills... Obviously I haven't seen you play, but if you can regularly get yourself in to positions that capitalise on enemy stupidity, I'd consider that skillful playing. You don't have to be an ace shot to be skilled at this game, which is actually one of the things that got me hooked. A great deal of the game is knowing proper positioning (which you seem to have) and working out enemy builds quickly from the paper doll info. The twitch skills are, imho, secondary (tertiary?) to the others.

You also mention a valid point with regards to lasers. An enemy might see that they're receiving rear damage, but since there is no screenshake/dakka they ignore it if they're bearing down on another mech. By the time they realise it's not a Locust or Commando tickling them with Smalls, it's much too late. Or, it's a case of good movement on your part that I mentioned earlier. If you come across, say an Atlas that is bearing down on a friendly (to you) Hunchie they will quite often ignore whatever is damaging them from behind. Capitalise on this, and you can bring down mechs twice your size in no time.

But I've started rambling and offering advice about gameplay... that's never a good thing from a mediocre player such as I.


TuristOAT, he may like the pewpew, but he mentioned that he doesn't like how slow the trial HGN is. As great as Stalkers are, I'm of the opinion that he'd dislike them purely because of their slow speed.

A further point, I feel I must respectfully disagree with you about Victor's and STD engines. Not running +325 engine ratings removes the main advantage that Victor's have over other assaults. Ideally you want to move at more than 70kph in a mech like this. It doesn't have the advantage that an Orion has with an Atlas buddy, which is to say that most people shoot the Atlas before the 75tonner.

Okay, I took a look on smurfy before posting and you might be right. The stock VTR-9B and 9S builds look to be fairly effective (with the addition of DHS, Endo and Artemis), so my apologies for initially disagreeing with you about STD engines in VTR's. However, I believe that the main strength of VTR's is their speed and ability to use XL's fairly safely.

Edited by Lunatech, 05 January 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Turist0AT]

Lunatech.

Hmm XL on Victor... if it works on victor it should work on highlander. Im gonna consider puting XL in them.

Oh yeah thats right, speed was a factor too. I did not consider that. Well my builds are slow, but the mechs them selfs can move up to ~80 with tweak.(Not Stalkers). Im the wrong person to talk about speed, all my 55,65,70,75,80,90 tonners move at a speed of about ~50-60km/h. Fastest is Jester 3LL 2ML 97.4km/h.

Edited by Turist0AT, 05 January 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[divinedisclaimer]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d7bce2c9e4e8203

I am not sure if this is my exact setup, I only carry 28 AC20 shots. I might have more heat sinks and no Artemis, or less ammo and an SRM6 instead of the 4. The Vic can only shoot 10 missiles at once though.

You can also drop the SRM's there and do 2 ppc's in the left and have a 20-20. I would say it's more challenging than the 'Phract because you have to be in close and personal and always spinning or you'll get your XL picked apart.

The 3D I have carries dual gauss and is essentially the exact opposite style of play. Slow, ranged, picking people off.

Here's some game-play of what you can expect with a 3D; you can figure this build out yourself.

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 06 January 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Bhelogan]

Are you sure we can't lure you into buying a nice SDH?

[divinedisclaimer]

Bhelogan, on 06 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Are you sure we can't lure you into buying a nice SDH?

3 streaks, 3 medium lasers, 3 machine guns.

Lights, lol. What lights?

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 06 January 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Roughneck45]

You can't go wrong with any of them.

Cataphract variants will get you the most diverse builds. 3D for jump sniping, 1X for brawling, and 4X for Dakka.

All of your Victors and Highlanders will have similar builds if you want to remain effective. PPC's, AC20's, UAC5's and AC5's, in various configurations.

You can run XL engines if you are confident in your abilities, but the Victor is better suited for them than the other two.

[Mechteric]

While I like both I would recommend Victors, they are faster, all of them have jump jets, and having an XL engine with AC20 is spectacularrrrr

[Victor Morson]

mikelovskij, on 05 January 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

Hi, i'm quite a new player and i have finally mastered my first 3 mechs (3 hunchbacks) and I'm collecting c-bills for buying a different one. I wanted to try a heavier mech and I'm undecided between a CTF-3D, a Victor (which one?) or maybe a Highlander (even if i do not like very much how slow the trial highlander is).
Which are the main differences in viable builds and in gameplay between these three mechs?

All three of those options are great.

I'd recommend the Victor, honestly, of the three. They are the midway point between the Cataphract and the Highlander, and they run most of the same configs as either of those. It's a good place to start for a heavier 'mech and you can go up/down after that. The 9S or 9B are both good places to start. The Dragon Slayer is very solid, too.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 January 2014 - 02:42 PM.