479 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Bhael Fire, on 08 January 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

I disagree completely. I think if you're too impatient to use cover and smart decisions about your placement on the battlefield, you should be dropped quickly.

Running out into the open and just pounding away on your enemy can be fun, but players that use those types of tactics should pay the price for it.

Nerfing all of the weapons in the game will inevitably end up rewarding bad habits.

This.

[Varent]

Almond Brown, on 08 January 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Can we get the LL GH limit raised to 3 please. That would be great.

This.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

You realize that even with pre-3050 tech, one of the most common designs (good old Urbie) packed AC/10's and some variants an AC/20, and the incredibly common Kuritan Panther was a slow PPC-spewing machine that moved about as fast as most heavies? That with 3050-level tech, you get such gems as the Gauss-packing mini-sniper, the Hollander?

A light can dish it out, but they'll sacrifice and certainly won't take it with most brawling setups.

you do realize the urban mech moved at under 40kph? slower then most assaults. That is what you call TRUE BALANCE. Where you have trade offs and are sporting weapons that therefore give you minuses that other mechs can exploit. The holander packed a gause rifle and moved at similiar speeds that mediums due putting it on par with the black jack. Note Also the hollander was a fire support mech not meant for front line duty.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Erm, I already said I was more concerned with where ML's are as opposed to LLs. And I recognise the advent of the duel ERLL light (e.g. Raven 3L) used as an harasser Mech, I use it myself on occasion for differing tactics than the anti-light brawler style or striker/flanker options.

It was in fact yourself who original proposed improving the range on LLs even if a bit incorrect with the presumption of use, I just said I wouldn't object to the idea, but didn't recognise it as needed or as demonstrated:


I would be more concerned as to where large lasers are as upposed to mediums. As it stands right now the large laser itself (not the erlarge) and the pulse laser are highly unused just because the benefits of other lighter lasers highly outweigh them. Increasing the range alone on those items could have a very profound effect on the game. Right now the sheer use that medium lasers are getting across the board should tell you they are fine. They are a consistent well rounded work horse weapon.

ML's are versatile, doesn't mean they are ineffective based on their potential. In fact so much so that I tend to build my Mediums or Lights to use pulse instead.

I would argue over the range of the medium laser myself and in high elo play most will be running ppc or er large anyways mixed in with a few mediums.

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Please show me the number of light builds that use a combination of effective Ballistics with an ML combination. Then recognise the limitation in your statement.

The comparison in the study is there to see and also how MLs are also recognisably ineffective when compared with Ballistics at the same time. In terms of their potential.

Then also look at my proposed solution in the study to only effectively improve them with a subtle improvement to heat for longevity. Then you will see that the disparities as identified doesn't mean that I want the sky to fall down. But for lighter Mechs (Lights and mediums, they have more of a dependency on the use of ML due to limited build options).

Yes I recognise that other Mechs can then use ML's also, but at least then that makes it comparatively fair in a relative way, but also helps to improve a diminished weapon option and improve the relevance of the short game over the existing sniper meta.

There are many ways to change the existing sniper meta without altering medium lasers. By Altering medium lasers you will create an imbalance.

[AlmightyAeng]

Cimarb, on 08 January 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

We already have several lengthy discussions going on about this. Quit being lazy and making new threads: http://mwomercs.com/...w-with-weapons/ is a good one to join, for instance

I'm glad someone ELSE finally got the nerve to post about this^^^


Hey Sandpit...I fixed it for you.

[Sandpit]

Ghost Badger, on 08 January 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'm glad someone ELSE finally got the nerve to post about this^^^


Hey Sandpit...I fixed it for you.

People are learning

[Varent]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Funny because the other day you were arguing a business model that appeals to players from FPS shooters.



http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3052856

It needs to appeal to both. Frankly thats how it appeals to me. It is a mechwarrior game that gives me fond memories of childhood. It also is a shooter which I enjoy playing. Combining the two while maintaining aspects of both is important but it still needs to be focused on being a shooter. Simply because the base of players is larger.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

It needs to appeal to both. Frankly thats how it appeals to me. It is a mechwarrior game that gives me fond memories of childhood. It also is a shooter which I enjoy playing. Combining the two while maintaining aspects of both is important but it still needs to be focused on being a shooter. Simply because the base of players is larger.

They might be happier with
http://megamek.info/
Just sayin
We need to get away from the TT mentality. It used to be a good thing to use TT as a basis for ideas but now? Now it's just a use of dramatized novels and descriptive accounts of manufacturer details on weapons to say "This is why PGI is wrong"

[wanderer]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

you do realize the urban mech moved at under 40kph? slower then most assaults. That is what you call TRUE BALANCE. Where you have trade offs and are sporting weapons that therefore give you minuses that other mechs can exploit. The holander packed a gause rifle and moved at similiar speeds that mediums due putting it on par with the black jack. Note Also the hollander was a fire support mech not meant for front line duty.

I sure do. That was my point. A light can mount brawling-heavy weaponry- but it sacrifices a lot to do so. You want to be a glass cannon mounting an AC/20 and barely moving fast enough to keep up with a gimpy Atlas? Let it be done. I mean, the closest we can get is strapping a big ol' gun on a Cicada at 40 tons, but you could manage the concept if they put some slower light chassis in, like the Urbanmech or the Panther. Especially the Urbie. With current engine multipliers, even a max-engine one would be only keeping up with the assaults....well, at least it could jump!

Edited by wanderer, 08 January 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

They might be happier with
http://megamek.info/
Just sayin
We need to get away from the TT mentality. It used to be a good thing to use TT as a basis for ideas but now? Now it's just a use of dramatized novels and descriptive accounts of manufacturer details on weapons to say "This is why PGI is wrong"

agreed. that said, I have several friends that play Megamek. Its fun but for a shooter there needs to be differentiation.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

I sure do. That was my point. A light can mount brawling-heavy weaponry- but it sacrifices a lot to do so. You want to be a glass cannon mounting an AC/20 and barely moving fast enough to keep up with a gimpy Atlas? Let it be done. I mean, the closest we can get is strapping a big ol' gun on a Cicada at 40 tons, but you could manage the concept if they put some slower light chassis in, like the Urbanmech or the Panther. Especially the Urbie. With current engine multipliers, even a max-engine one would be only keeping up with the assaults....well, at least it could jump!

you do reealize the urban mech wouldnt be viable in this game right? At least not until they release more maps it would be viable on and DRASTICALLY decrease the weight drops.... Right now those mechs simply are not good based off of there weight and what is needed for light mechs. Also the urban mech is an extreme example. YOu could also say that assault mechs can be scouts and cite the "Charger".

[wanderer]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

you do reealize the urban mech wouldnt be viable in this game right? At least not until they release more maps it would be viable on and DRASTICALLY decrease the weight drops.... Right now those mechs simply are not good based off of there weight and what is needed for light mechs. Also the urban mech is an extreme example. YOu could also say that assault mechs can be scouts and cite the "Charger".

I didn't say it'd be good. I said you could build it and waddle out on the field and shoot at people, much like the Charger...and oddly enough, while a Urbie would be junk trying to run with a pack, it's not built to. Need something light to cover a base or a conquest point? Urbie's your guy- he'll make whoever comes along regret it.

Even with the usual upgrades available from the Mechlab, an Urbanmech can easily be modified to pack an AC/20 in it's ballistic hardpoint, a medium laser in the other, double heat sinks that could handle the heat load, and has the jump jets to leap up to something and full vertical swivel to fire them.

Getting surprised by an Urbie nailing you with it's big gun, jumping to avoid fire, and drilling you -again-....well, we all know what a few AC/20 hits do. For a 'Mech that's taking up a light slot, that's an awful harsh surprise. Catch him in the open and he'll be mashed flat...well, that's to be expected, he's only 30 tons and slower than molasses.

Now, replace that AC with a Gauss rifle. Or a lighter AC and put a PPC where that small laser used to be. Now you've got a 30-ton poptarter with an AC/5 and a PPC. Annoying little slowbie, ain't it? And that's just being conservative and assuming the absolute minimum single ballistic and energy hardpoint it'd have to have to be an Urbie.

Did it get two ballistic slots? Hello, dual AC/2 mount. Don't worry about it running up, it'll hit you anyway. And it's a small, compact little thing too. Try firing back at it from 1000m when it's rattling your cage with autocannon hits.

Also, and this may frighten you a bit- but the second-generation Charger just strapped an XL engine in, beefed up the armor, and gave it jump jets. The -3K had four energy weapons (4 medium pulses) and an Artemis-equipped LRM 20. Same speed as the original, armored, respectably armed (frankly, it'd scare the tar out of most conventional scouts) and the most mobile assault 'Mech of it's time- and it debuted in the War of 3039, making it a legit MWO version (if they went that way). Think of it as a lighter, nimbler Highlander, and that girl has legs as it is. The base -1A1 Charger was crud, but the various -1's that downgraded the engine a bit were solid, and the -SB was a large-laser version of the Awesome. While the precise, original role of a chassis stock might not be grand for MWO, who goes with stock designs? The normal limits for modding such chassis would open up some really nice design options, and that makes me itch to have them show up in the game.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

I didn't say it'd be good. I said you could build it and waddle out on the field and shoot at people, much like the Charger...and oddly enough, while a Urbie would be junk trying to run with a pack, it's not built to. Need something light to cover a base or a conquest point? Urbie's your guy- he'll make whoever comes along regret it.

Even with the usual upgrades available from the Mechlab, an Urbanmech can easily be modified to pack an AC/20 in it's ballistic hardpoint, a medium laser in the other, double heat sinks that could handle the heat load, and has the jump jets to leap up to something and full vertical swivel to fire them.

Getting surprised by an Urbie nailing you with it's big gun, jumping to avoid fire, and drilling you -again-....well, we all know what a few AC/20 hits do. For a 'Mech that's taking up a light slot, that's an awful harsh surprise. Catch him in the open and he'll be mashed flat...well, that's to be expected, he's only 30 tons and slower than molasses.

Now, replace that AC with a Gauss rifle. Or a lighter AC and put a PPC where that small laser used to be. Now you've got a 30-ton poptarter with an AC/5 and a PPC. Annoying little slowbie, ain't it? And that's just being conservative and assuming the absolute minimum single ballistic and energy hardpoint it'd have to have to be an Urbie.

Did it get two ballistic slots? Hello, dual AC/2 mount. Don't worry about it running up, it'll hit you anyway. And it's a small, compact little thing too. Try firing back at it from 1000m when it's rattling your cage with autocannon hits.

Also, and this may frighten you a bit- but the second-generation Charger just strapped an XL engine in, beefed up the armor, and gave it jump jets. The -3K had four energy weapons (4 medium pulses) and an Artemis-equipped LRM 20. Same speed as the original, armored, respectably armed (frankly, it'd scare the tar out of most conventional scouts) and the most mobile assault 'Mech of it's time- and it debuted in the War of 3039, making it a legit MWO version (if they went that way). Think of it as a lighter, nimbler Highlander, and that girl has legs as it is. The base -1A1 Charger was crud, but the various -1's that downgraded the engine a bit were solid, and the -SB was a large-laser version of the Awesome. While the precise, original role of a chassis stock might not be grand for MWO, who goes with stock designs? The normal limits for modding such chassis would open up some really nice design options, and that makes me itch to have them show up in the game.

I actually made a point to experiment and see what the urban mech would actually be able to do, and while YES you could fit an ac20... you would have so little armor, speed and ammo... that you would literally be a walking target. You would be far better of using an ac10 or even smaller ac which would make the mech even less viable. While the urban mech would be 'neat' it would be a super niche mech that would probly fail to perform on every level. let alone the fact that the silhouette would make it a sponge for damage too.

The concept of the urban mech is urban combat working in a pack of similiar design to focus fire. That does not work right now. CW may give this mech something.. but as it stands currently it would be a horribly failed mech.

You would not be able to avoid fire as you seem to think you would be able to with the engine size you would have. You would be slow.... lumbering and barely able to turn or maneuver between buildings. Any light mech would kill you.. hell any mech would kill you.. quite easily.

However lets say that you get lucky and get one good shot off with an ac20.... YOu still would not do enough damage to take out any component on a mech as long as they did not completely strip there armor away, with the exception of a lucky rear shot one blast would not even cripple a locust. Then they start circling you and eating you alive while you could do nothing about it.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...37aefc449ade709

rough idea obviously. But you would have enough for the ac (no backup weapon) and perhaps 2-3 tons of ammo. More then likely 2.

Edited by Varent, 08 January 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

agreed. that said, I have several friends that play Megamek. Its fun but for a shooter there needs to be differentiation.

Exactly
I love MegaMek
I didn't come here wanting a TT Megamek type game though

[Cimarb]

I love all the Urbie-discussion, but this thread is a waste. Go here to discuss weapons:

Cimarb, on 08 January 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

We already have several lengthy discussions going on about this. Quit being lazy and making new threads: http://mwomercs.com/...w-with-weapons/ is a good one to join, for instance

[Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 08 January 2014 - 02:28 PM.
Discussing Moderation

[PropagandaWar]

Im not gonna read anything beyond the header to reply to this. Simply because that's what I want to do. I've seen Competitive Play garbage. It's Booorinnnng because its BRooooken. PGI needs to screw with convergence a little and call it a day. Then we can see whats really broke.

[PropagandaWar]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

They might be happier with
http://megamek.info/
Just sayin
We need to get away from the TT mentality. It used to be a good thing to use TT as a basis for ideas but now? Now it's just a use of dramatized novels and descriptive accounts of manufacturer details on weapons to say "This is why PGI is wrong"

Hey Weinerbot. I and some friends play MegaMek here and there too. If you want come over to "The Crows" and we can run a game. our website is the-crows.net you can pop over there to see if I'm in TS. Always wanting to run my bloodhound through a house and into a basement on the first round.

[Trauglodyte]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

you do realize the urban mech moved at under 40kph? slower then most assaults. That is what you call TRUE BALANCE. Where you have trade offs and are sporting weapons that therefore give you minuses that other mechs can exploit. The holander packed a gause rifle and moved at similiar speeds that mediums due putting it on par with the black jack. Note Also the hollander was a fire support mech not meant for front line duty.

I'd argue, though, that in the novels in the thought process of this game that the fronts were pretty static. You don't often see, in real life, battle lines changing at the speeds that you see in the game. And yes, I know this is a fantasy game but it was thought of and created based on the reality of war. In Battle Tech, the Hollander, Panther, Urban Mech, Hunchback, etc all had their places in the game and they shined brightly in those areas. Taking an Urban Mech and Hunchback, two purposely designed city fighters, and putting them out in an open plain would be death for them. Just like taking the Hollander and Blackjack and trying to force them into fighting on the front line (which is why I think the BJ-1C is a blasphemous piece of garbage only played by bads and min/maxers). There is a plus and minus for every mech design but we don't necessarily have that in this game because battle fronts change every 10s due to the speed of the game. Nobody holds strategic positions because they mostly don't exist and supporting a teammate is mostly unheard of thanks to JJ OnLine.

The intent is no longer the reality and the design has devolved into a slight cluster.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 January 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 08 January 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I'd argue, though, that in the novels in the thought process of this game that the fronts were pretty static. You don't often see, in real life, battle lines changing at the speeds that you see in the game. And yes, I know this is a fantasy game but it was thought of and created based on the reality of war. In Battle Tech, the Hollander, Panther, Urban Mech, Hunchback, etc all had their places in the game and they shined brightly in those areas. Taking an Urban Mech and Hunchback, two purposely designed city fighters, and putting them out in an open plain would be death for them. Just like taking the Hollander and Blackjack and trying to force them into fighting on the front line (which is why I think the BJ-1C is a blasphemous piece of garbage only played by bads and min/maxers). There is a plus and minus for every mech design but we don't necessarily have that in this game because battle fronts change every 10s due to the speed of the game. Nobody holds strategic positions because they mostly don't exist and supporting a teammate is mostly unheard of thanks to JJ OnLine.

The intent is no longer the reality and the design has devolved into a slight cluster.

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The concept of the urban mech is urban combat working in a pack of similiar design to focus fire. That does not work right now. CW may give this mech something.. but as it stands currently it would be a horribly failed mech.

Before any of those concepts can become viable, we need CW. I hold all thoughts until that happens on both sides.

That said I feel im digressing and I cant remember why I was even arguing about the viability of the moving trashcan. Would I own it and still get kills with it? Yes. Would my jenner outclass it in every way? Yes. I dunno what else to say about that one lol....

[Sandpit]

PropagandaWar, on 08 January 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Hey Weinerbot. I and some friends play MegaMek here and there too. If you want come over to "The Crows" and we can run a game. our website is the-crows.net you can pop over there to see if I'm in TS. Always wanting to run my bloodhound through a house and into a basement on the first round.

Sounds good, if I get more free time I might actually be willing to run some TT campaigns. I'm thinking about gauging interest for that once my schedule settles down a bit again