479 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 08 January 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Just change AC's from slug weapons to burst weapons(aka AC20's shoot 20 one damage shots) and be done with it. You will never be able to achieve balance between two weapon types when one does full frontload damage and the other is a DoT weapon in a game like this.

that wont achieve balance. That will just make everyone use energy weapons.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

2+2 = 4 Fact
3+1 = 4 Fact

3+1 is a better way to use addition to get to 4 than 2+2 Opinion. That's the difference

Weapon A has front loaded damage for xx damage and xx trade-offs Fact
Weapon B has DPS for xx damage and xx trade-offs Fact

Weapon A is better than Weapon B Opinion
Weapon B is "useless" Opinion

You use weapon B so you're dumb.
You give examples of how weapon B isn't useless so you're just invalid and only good for laughs, you're a joke

Weapon B is useful in these ways and because of these trade-offs so I don't agree with your opinion
Well you're just dumb then

Do you see the point now? Do you also see how math does not make opinion based on the math fact?

Sure as per that example, but at least now I can see the reasoning behind your conclusions, it isn't just an opinion to be simply accepted is it?

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Ok, claims without evidence, an ongoing trend it seems. Usual ad hominen.

Oh and check out the thread about NARC that Sandpit started, where I supported the idea. Clearly I never gave any consideration to the good ideas being presented in that thread.

Maybe it's just this particular subject then? You really are very stubborn on this one for some reason. Good, bad, or indifferent, the reason we're even discussing this particular subject is because of the snark and name calling that appeared earlier and your seeming endorsement of it

[Wildstreak]

Craig Steele, on 08 January 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

IMO this current Meta is more of playing on the weakness of this game (being the lack of comms and in game information) than anything because pinpoint sniping is defeated by teamwork and suppression.

Players are being forced to adopt the current Meta or leave to meet their entertainment desire. So if the Meta is not balanced we will eventually have the few players left playing the same mech chassiss with the same weapons trundling around. Don't have to worry about balance then.

The new tactic I am going to try is to load up with bucket loads of Artillery in my Raven and get around their flanks and then call in as many as I can in their rear.

Theory is the min / max's have paper thin rear armour and are largely stationary in the "good" spots. I know roughly where they will be. 3 slavo's staggered at the backs should be enough? Hopefully I don't have to fire a shot. Every modern military uses the tactic irl and you know what, I bet the forums come ALIVE with Nerf artillery calls if it is effective.

Lack of comms I addressed here regarding the pitfalls we might get.

As for your tactic, I have tried it and similar. Running around to their rear, firing an alpha then running away. Can cause havoc but you have to cover your behind since you are alone out there, also need to mentally prepare for the very likely outcome of getting killed for the team's sake and overall victory. Just like capping their base.

[Varent]

actually my mistake, was another thread. I think that was the only thread so far that we havent butted heads on. THat said no major opinions were exchanged.

[Noesis]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Im honestly starting to think your just naturally argumentative and sour and dont realize it, reread that thread over a few times. That said rather not argue over a thread anymore, its getting old. You feel one way and back it up how you feel is correct and others feel another way and back it up how they feel is correct.

Hardly, you just generated another new fallacy attack against my integrity. And then don't see a problem with this behaviour.

Especially when you have previously done these things and stated that "you" see our relationship as argumentative, your ongoing label not mine and seemingly unwilling to adjust even when presented with evidence like above that contradicts your understanding of things.

Edited by Noesis, 08 January 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Sure as per that example, but at least now I can see the reasoning behind your conclusions, it isn't just an opinion to be simply accepted is it?

You honestly think statements such as "Energy weapons are useless" "You can't be competitive with lasers"
and then retorting with "You're a joke" "Your examples are invalid because they don't fit into my ideas" "(Insert name calling)" when someone provides examples that contradict those kinds of blanket statements are fact?

Now then, my personal opinion? Ballistics are in a good place now. I ahve offered up several ideas and suggestions to counter the whole burst fire suggestion because regardless of my opinion on the subject I can acknowledge I'm not the only person that plays this game. I can also understand that MY opinion based on the factual math is still MY opinion.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

For the record, I've seen players do fantastically regardless of what weapons they bring. The real issue is if you know how to use it or not. There's advantages and drawbacks to everything. Lasers, like everything else, have their place. They have their strengths and weaknesses, like any other weapon.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Hardly, you just generated another new fallacy attack against my integrity. And then don't see a problem with this behaviour.

Especially when you have previously done these things and stated that "you" see our relationship as argumentative, your ongoing label not mine and seemingly unwilling to adjust even when presented with evidence like above that contradicts your understanding of things.

*not worth it*

K.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

seemingly unwilling to adjust even when presented with evidence like above that contradicts your understanding of things.

That sounds familiar......

Sounds exactly like what I was saying to you earlier. You refuse to come off of the burst fire idea. You refuse to acknowledge any other suggestions that the majority of the ones involved in this discussion are willing to at least accept as valid. Seriously. It's a 2 way street sir. I can acknowledge that even though I think ballistics and energy weapon balance is in a good place right now that I'm not the only one who needs to feel things are balanced.

I cannot and won't accept that burst fire should be the thing we try to achieve that though. That's why I've spent countless moments actually discussing and trying to come up with other alternatives.

[Craig Steele]

Absolutely in game comms must have mutes, the game is open to 13 yo population and communication is not going to be a strong point.

But in theory, thats the counter to the snipe / one shot alpha. So the players adopting that meta are exploiting the games functions which is kinda no different to any meta.

This thread or another someone showed an exampe of a guy riding a motor bike to win a footrace cause the rules didn't say "you can't have a motorbike". An extreme example sure, but it serves the purpose of highlighting the min max concept. If the rules aren't fixed we end up with a bike race, its that simple.

As an aside, I do laugh at the bike rider who mocks all the runners saying they are scrubs cause they didn't finish the race in 15 minutes

[Sug]

I see the 'lasers work well on lights' argument and think how much better lights would be if they could effectively use ballistics.

[Foxfire]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

that wont achieve balance. That will just make everyone use energy weapons.

That step alone won't achieve balance but it will make balance much more achievable.

And no, it won't make everyone use energy weapons because ballistics will still have the advantages of lower heat generation for their damage(thus the ability to sustain damage output longer) when compared to lasers. What this does is make a wider variety of builds viable.

My point about the inability to achieve balance between frontload damage and DoT in a game like this is centered around this: To make up for the ability to frontload damage, you have to either saddle that damage type with an extreme level of restriction/negatives(e.g. very long cooldown, slow projectile speed with high level of drop, and other similar mechanic negatives) or with arbitrary systems(such as the change to the Gauss to make you charge it before you shoot) to artificially weaken the weapon type. The ability to guarantee full damage application on a single point is extremely powerful in a game of this type to the point that DoT style weapons will always be inherently weaker due to damage spread.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 08 January 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

That step alone won't achieve balance but it will make balance much more achievable.

And no, it won't make everyone use energy weapons because ballistics will still have the advantages of lower heat generation for their damage(thus the ability to sustain damage output longer) when compared to lasers. What this does is make a wider variety of builds viable.

My point about the inability to achieve balance between frontload damage and DoT in a game like this is centered around this: To make up for the ability to frontload damage, you have to either saddle that damage type with an extreme level of restriction/negatives(e.g. very long cooldown, slow projectile speed with high level of drop, and other similar mechanic negatives) or with arbitrary systems(such as the change to the Gauss to make you charge it before you shoot) to artificially weaken the weapon type. The ability to guarantee full damage application on a single point is extremely powerful in a game of this type to the point that DoT style weapons will always be inherently weaker due to damage spread.

you will simply have laser boats again that will use jump sniping to maximize there damage and maintain security while cooling down. So no. You will still have 0 Balance the the major problem in the game will remain.

Pin point damage is not as strong as you think it is. Jump sniping on the other hand is very very strong. There is a reason the ac40 jager is a joke build thats easily beaten and not seen in higher elo. There is also a major reason the jump sniping builds are ALWAYS seen.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

You honestly think statements such as "Energy weapons are useless" "You can't be competitive with lasers"
and then retorting with "You're a joke" "Your examples are invalid because they don't fit into my ideas" "(Insert name calling)" when someone provides examples that contradict those kinds of blanket statements are fact?

Now then, my personal opinion? Ballistics are in a good place now. I ahve offered up several ideas and suggestions to counter the whole burst fire suggestion because regardless of my opinion on the subject I can acknowledge I'm not the only person that plays this game. I can also understand that MY opinion based on the factual math is still MY opinion.

Are you talking about me here as I don't recognise that as my consistant behaviour in posting. I'd love to see examples in context if that is the case.

I have commented previously that the studies or claims I have made don't actually claim that beams are "useless" only that they are comparatively less effective:

E.g: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3058484

Otherwise I would need to consider these examples in context if in dialouge with others, especially if factual claims are simply being made from opinions.

I have noticed you offer as much cynicism in your own time regardless.

Edited by Noesis, 08 January 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Foxfire]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

you will simply have laser boats again that will use jump sniping to maximize there damage and maintain security while cooling down. So no. You will still have 0 Balance the the major problem in the game will remain.

Pin point damage is not as strong as you think it is. Jump sniping on the other hand is very very strong. There is a reason the ac40 jager is a joke build thats easily beaten and not seen in higher elo. There is also a major reason the jump sniping builds are ALWAYS seen.

And that is more of an issue with the current mechanics of jumpjets than it is with any weapon type right now.

Edited by Foxfire, 08 January 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Are you talking about me here as I don't recognise that as my consistant behaviour in posting. I'd love to see examples in context if that is the case.

I have commented previously that the studies or claims I have made don't actually claim that beams are "useless" only that they are comparatively less effective:

E.g: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3058484

Otherwise I would need to consider these examples in context if in dialouge with others, especially if factual claims are simply being made from opinions.

I have noticed you offer as much cynicism in your own time regardless.

What I was pointing out was you jumping on the bandwagon (or at least it really seemed you were) when I started getting personally attacked for having dissenting opinions

I'm also pointing out that math does not make an opinion based on the math factual. Of course I offer cynicism. I also offer more than name calling. I'm a cynic by nature and generally speaking when I dig on someone (unless I just really feel they aren't worth it) it's in good humor and I can take it just as well as dish it.

At the basis right now is the whole burst fire thing. I don't like it. I don't think ballistics are OP now but again I acknowledge that some do. Contrary to popular opinion I do want more people to enjoy the game. So even though I don't think ballistics are "op" or that energy weapons are "useless" I've offered up alternative ideas on how ballistics could be adjusted that don't involve burst fire because to me that's just an option I do not like.

[Noesis]

I was merely pointing out as per the intended conversation that opinions are subjective and still need a point of reference or evidence to help others to understand your reasoning or view point.

Simply stating something then as you rightly say does not make it fact and always helpful to understand the thinking behind that conclusion as opposed to just stating it as something that needs to be accepted.

Maths and other forms of shared dialogue between posters only then helpful tools in adding weight and justification as to how these conclusions have been derived.

Otherwise how many times have you also supported Varent's claims even when shown to be incorrect, see above as one example. Miss placed loyalty perhaps?

If I was completely cynical I could see a demonstrated clique being belligerent against a poster and using character deformation as a technique to undermine them due to simply having differences of opinion, but I won't as I have no clear evidence to support such claims.

Edited by Noesis, 08 January 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

we were running a 3025 campaign. I thought I was jumping my wolverine onto a building, turned out to be a satellite that ripped off my leg. Yep that was fun I died in the end lol.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 January 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

I was merely pointing out as per the intended conversation that opinions are subjective and still need a point of reference or evidence to help others to understand your reasoning or view point.

Simply stating something then as you rightly say does not make it fact and always helpful to understand the thinking behind that conclusion as opposed to just stating it as something that needs to be accepted.

Maths and other forms of shared dialogue between posters only then helpful tools in adding weight and justification as to how these conclusions have been derived.

Otherwise how many times have you also supported Varent's claims despite seeing all the evidence and shown to be incorrect, see above? Miss placed loyalty perhaps?

If I was completely cynical I could see a demonstrated clique being belligerent against a poster and using character deformation as a technique to undermine them due to simply having differences of opinion, but I won't as I have no clear evidence to support such claims.

ok, I'm done.

You STILL haven't posted a single solitary thing as to the other ideas that have been presented by myself, varent, and numerous others (since you seem to like to stick Varent and I together I jsut wanted to point out that there ARE others who play this game that agree with our opinions on burst fire and have shared as such on the forums) about balancing ballistics.