479 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

AaronWolf, on 13 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

"If you can't be useful in a discussion, atleast be funny." -Shia LaBeouf

FTFY

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...


... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

I am on that list!!!!

[Varent]

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...


... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

Because it wouldnt really resolve the jump sniping issue and the dominant meta. You would only get part of your beam still unless you DRASTICALLY shortned it. That said, keep in mind you can actually turn your mech while jumping, so fire a shot and then continue a turn so keep shielding to expose less, you also turn faster. Also it would depend on what beams.

[AaronWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

FTFY

~~~~~

I am on that list!!!!

I'm wondering why we don't see Bumble-bee-esque painted mechs.

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

And you can count me on the list of: "Whatever makes lasers better for lights"

Because I am a biased jerk.

[Joseph Mallan]

AaronWolf, on 13 January 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'm wondering why we don't see Bumble-bee-esque painted mechs.

Cause we don't have GT striped Camo...yet!

[Noesis]

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...


... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!! idfk PP !?!?!?!???!!?!?!?!!

I have suggested this before amongst alternatives. And as long as the overall weapon cycle times don't change for dps improvement balanced by heat issues however it would be a simply correction to the beam mechanics to re-tune them for more effectiveness with their applied use.

The idea of FLD reduction with pinpoint weapons being the perceived root problem instead and I guess reducing beam times makes lasers more FLD. Hence the recent ballistic desyncs to AC20 and AC10 instead.

[Lykaon]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

The sher fact that speed+SRM+Medium laser simple beats those weapons in one on one trade while in close? Heat efficiency alone and ability to circle overheating mechs makes those weapons greater at those ranges as upposed to high alpha. I will say keep in mind I am speaking purely ac10, ac20 and ppc. Those weapons are highly heat inefficient when trying to fire them over and over again in comparision to what I listed. They also are hard to track things when you are in a heavy or assault mech when someone is zipping around you at higher speeds.

If you want tactics that would succeed agaisnt this front load damage without jump jets. I would site a combination of tactics. LRM, Quick flanking. ER Large support. Keep in mind the ER large laser has a range greater then the ppc, ac10 and 20. So if you kept proper ranges you would only be fighting against ac5 grouped up at that point (if you simply are considering just the meta builds) and they would be forced to stand atop a ridgeline and fight. If you had multiple ER large laser boats you would out gun them heavily.

And thats just a few ideas off the top of my head with how things would change with a differentiation of Jump Jets. It would basically change everything and how 12 mans are conducted entirely.

Your assumtion is the light fast mech at close range armed with lasers and SRMs won't be hit by a crippling 40 point alpha is the only saving grace in your compareson. I have (and frequently) one shot killed a light mech trying exactaly this tactic.The pinpoint damage is a superior method of damage application just because evasion is in the equation does not alter the method of damage delivery.If you could fit an AC20 on a Jenner and retain all it's mobility you would wouldn't you?I know most people would eventually gravitiate towards a build like this for anti heavy.asault mech duty.Also,what if the mech firing on the fast light mech is not the one the light mech is paying attention to? I have sniped dozens of light mechs to bits while they were focused with fighting a freindly Atlas or Stalker.

LRMs? countered by 1.5 tons of passivley functioning equipment.ECM turns this off.What turns off my highlanders 2 AC5 and 2 PPCs? nothing.LRMs are way to situational to count on and require exstencive support to function with ECM present.

Quick flank? what would be better to flank with a bunch of mechs capable of alpha striking off chunks of enemy mechs or laser equiped mechs that disperse damage all over?

ER large laser support is inferior in nearly every way to AC5/UAC5 support.If you say bring tons of ER lrg laser boats my counter is bring loads of superior ac5 boats.So the situational effectivness of the ER large laser support is conditional upon the enemy lacking more effective AC based support mechs.Check for your self an AC5 based support platform will have superior cooling efficency (more sustained fire time) and higher DPS (more damage with longer duration of sustained fire)

I am not disputing that reducing the dominance of jump sniping would alter the meta slightly.

My point is it would only alter the meta in a direction where non jumping alpha strikers would be more competitive.Jump jet capable mechs would still have a manuverabiity advantage so I would still be piloting a Highlander for jet assisted turning.

[Mister Blastman]

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...


... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

The biggest reason is from past experience. In Mechwarrior 3, lasers were instantaneous. When you clicked, they immediately did full damage to the pinpoint spot you were lag shooting at. It allowed light and medium mechs to trounce everything else except for the dubious pairing of a UAC 40 Assault with a light mech wingman.

In Mechwarrior 4, lasers were also instant. Even large lasers were. It didn't seem like so because the animation played longer. The damage was front-loaded for lasers, regardless. If you popped over a ridge and fired, immediately backing down, your large laser only needed to crest the hill at the beginning of the shot. Once the raytrace determined the laser hit the target, if 99% of your beam went through the hill after that, 100% of your damage still counted.

Lowering the laser duration would lead to just another weapon with a pinpoint alpha--which has been the bane of Mechwarrior since the 3rd game.

When Mechwarrior Living Legends decided to make lasers damage over time, it was singlehandedly the best balance decision made in years. PGI copied it and I am glad they did.

The answer is not to make the lasers like the other front loaded weapons. The answer is to make damage less front-loaded and less pinpoint.

[AaronWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Cause we don't have GT striped Camo...yet!

Here PGI...have it for the rest of Eternity.





If you ever make it that is...

[Noesis]

Mechs do need go faster stripes.

[Varent]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Your assumtion is the light fast mech at close range armed with lasers and SRMs won't be hit by a crippling 40 point alpha is the only saving grace in your compareson. I have (and frequently) one shot killed a light mech trying exactaly this tactic.The pinpoint damage is a superior method of damage application just because evasion is in the equation does not alter the method of damage delivery.If you could fit an AC20 on a Jenner and retain all it's mobility you would wouldn't you?I know most people would eventually gravitiate towards a build like this for anti heavy.asault mech duty.Also,what if the mech firing on the fast light mech is not the one the light mech is paying attention to? I have sniped dozens of light mechs to bits while they were focused with fighting a freindly Atlas or Stalker.

LRMs? countered by 1.5 tons of passivley functioning equipment.ECM turns this off.What turns off my highlanders 2 AC5 and 2 PPCs? nothing.LRMs are way to situational to count on and require exstencive support to function with ECM present.

Quick flank? what would be better to flank with a bunch of mechs capable of alpha striking off chunks of enemy mechs or laser equiped mechs that disperse damage all over?

ER large laser support is inferior in nearly every way to AC5/UAC5 support.If you say bring tons of ER lrg laser boats my counter is bring loads of superior ac5 boats.So the situational effectivness of the ER large laser support is conditional upon the enemy lacking more effective AC based support mechs.Check for your self an AC5 based support platform will have superior cooling efficency (more sustained fire time) and higher DPS (more damage with longer duration of sustained fire)

I am not disputing that reducing the dominance of jump sniping would alter the meta slightly.

My point is it would only alter the meta in a direction where non jumping alpha strikers would be more competitive.Jump jet capable mechs would still have a manuverabiity advantage so I would still be piloting a Highlander for jet assisted turning.

Those same medium mechs tend to also be very good at turning there chasis to absorb damage, Keep in mind torso twisting is something that is faster based off engine size. Also keep in mind there is a limit to how many times you can alpha with ppc (and once you clsoe to 90 no times) and ac. They are heat inefficient compared to srm. In a close in fight at 90 meters the srm and laser win over the autocannon, hands down.

The question then becomes if the changes to JJ would be enoug to allow for a fine balance between the two. Its not even a question of wich is stronger in close.

Hence my proposed suggestion of making it more difficult to jump snipe but not impossible.

[wanderer]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

The answer is not to make the lasers like the other front loaded weapons. The answer is to make damage less front-loaded and less pinpoint.

This, really. The only solution to poptarting and pinpoint high-damage strikes being the meta is rendering the tools needed to do so incapable of such. That's why lasers were changed, that's why Gauss was altered, and that's why AC's are king right now. Against fast-moving targets, an AC/5 is more effectively delivering damage than the spread-damage of a laser. Heck, against anything moving fast/turning enough to diffuse the beam.

Cone-of-fire while jump jets are active, swap PPC's to a more decentralized "splash" and AC's to a "burst". Problem solved, no more jump snipers (jumping in TT is the de facto worst targeting modifier in Battletech, never mind MIDAIR jump shots), no more super 'Mech-shredding auto-destructor twin-AC 20 from 500m out.

Pinpoint damage simply -does not work in Mechwarrior Online without significant counters-, and it's been the bane of online MW games since day one. Not just MWO, but MW4 and all the way back down the line.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 13 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

This, really. The only solution to poptarting and pinpoint high-damage strikes being the meta is rendering the tools needed to do so incapable of such. That's why lasers were changed, that's why Gauss was altered, and that's why AC's are king right now. Against fast-moving targets, an AC/5 is more effectively delivering damage than the spread-damage of a laser. Heck, against anything moving fast/turning enough to diffuse the beam.

Cone-of-fire while jump jets are active, swap PPC's to a more decentralized "splash" and AC's to a "burst". Problem solved, no more jump snipers (jumping in TT is the de facto worst targeting modifier in Battletech, never mind MIDAIR jump shots), no more super 'Mech-shredding auto-destructor twin-AC 20 from 500m out.

Pinpoint damage simply -does not work in Mechwarrior Online without significant counters-, and it's been the bane of online MW games since day one. Not just MWO, but MW4 and all the way back down the line.

and yet the jump sniping continues. In fact it even continues in small degrees with srm on medium mechs who will hop over small ridges, reign a few bursts of srm then fall again. This would seem to indicate the way that JJ are implimented needs to be changed.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

and yet the jump sniping continues. In fact it even continues in small degrees with srm on medium mechs who will hop over small ridges, reign a few bursts of srm then fall again. This would seem to indicate the way that JJ are implimented needs to be changed.

Um...you can't pinpoint with SRMs. Feel free to scatter missile hits all over my armor at range. You most certainly can jump-pinpoint right now with PPC or AC fire, I even manage it with a dual ER-PPC Thunderbolt.

SRMs are nowhere near an OP weapon.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 13 January 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Um...you can't pinpoint with SRMs. Feel free to scatter missile hits all over my armor at range. You most certainly can jump-pinpoint right now with PPC or AC fire, I even manage it with a dual ER-PPC Thunderbolt.

SRMs are nowhere near an OP weapon.

I was using it as an example to show that people will continue to use weapons in ways with jump jets that will not allow you to damage them in turn. This will continue to be a dominant meta that will be used over and over and over again until you change the way JJ are instituted in the game.

[Jman5]

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...


... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

I am not a fan of homogenizing weapons systems to achieve balance. In fact, I strongly propose the opposite needs to be done. We need to do better at creating clear cut strengths and weaknesses to the weapon systems.

For example, we make autocannons/PPCs superior at the quick shots from cover at a distance. However, if you're in an open area, you make lasers superior. If you're close up, you make SRMs and LB10x superior. Just as the autocannon/ppc dominate in the hands in a jump sniper, the SRMs and lasers should dominate in their respective spheres of influence

[wanderer]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I was using it as an example to show that people will continue to use weapons in ways with jump jets that will not allow you to damage them in turn. This will continue to be a dominant meta that will be used over and over and over again until you change the way JJ are instituted in the game.

People hopping up to piddle random shots at me while I do the same doesn't bother me. SRMs don't do squat past their max range in any case. They spew scattered shots at a range that only makes their SRMs worse, I pump a PPC or AC burst into them right back- only my shot doesn't randomly scatter and theirs does.

Please, keep bouncing up and down like a pogo stick and firing ineffectual scatter-shots my way. I'll have you sawed in half far before then if you can't actually keep hitting the same place twice thanks to a jump-jet cone-of-fire effect on your aim. If anything, SRMs would be even WORSE considering you can't even effectively center the spread with random "centering" from your jet use. Poptarting doesn't render you immune to enemy fire- it simply means that you're built to deliver that frontloaded hit accurately, then drop back below cover. If you can't accurately deliver the hit or frontload the damage, you're just an annoyance spraying random shots all over the place, missing half of them, and managing to hit every location on my 'Mech with the rest with lousy fire discipline, like the guy with an AK-47 in Counterstrike who holds down the trigger and expects to nail someone at long range with every shot. (Protip: They don't, lrn2recoilnoob)

[Varent]

wanderer, on 13 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

People hopping up to piddle random shots at me while I do the same doesn't bother me. SRMs don't do squat past their max range in any case. They spew scattered shots at a range that only makes their SRMs worse, I pump a PPC or AC burst into them right back- only my shot doesn't randomly scatter and theirs does.

Please, keep bouncing up and down like a pogo stick and firing ineffectual scatter-shots my way. I'll have you sawed in half far before then if you can't actually keep hitting the same place twice thanks to a jump-jet cone-of-fire effect on your aim. If anything, SRMs would be even WORSE considering you can't even effectively center the spread with random "centering" from your jet use. Poptarting doesn't render you immune to enemy fire- it simply means that you're built to deliver that frontloaded hit accurately, then drop back below cover. If you can't accurately deliver the hit or frontload the damage, you're just an annoyance spraying random shots all over the place, missing half of them, and managing to hit every location on my 'Mech with the rest with lousy fire discipline, like the guy with an AK-47 in Counterstrike who holds down the trigger and expects to nail someone at long range with every shot. (Protip: They don't, lrn2recoilnoob)

You actually wont. Keep in mind those same mechs are mobile and can turn to defuse fire better. Also at 200 meters those srm with artemis are more tightly packed then you know. Jump capability cant be stressed enough for its strength. That said im not against it. But I believe it needs to be altered in a way that makes jump sniping more difficult.

[Livewyr]

Shortening beam duration..

I thought that was the purpose of... Pulse lasers? (Or at least one of them..)

[Mister Blastman]

Jman5, on 13 January 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

I am not a fan of homogenizing weapons systems to achieve balance. In fact, I strongly propose the opposite needs to be done. We need to do better at creating clear cut strengths and weaknesses to the weapon systems.

For example, we make autocannons/PPCs superior at the quick shots from cover at a distance. However, if you're in an open area, you make lasers superior. If you're close up, you make SRMs and LB10x superior. Just as the autocannon/ppc dominate in the hands in a jump sniper, the SRMs and lasers should dominate in their respective spheres of influence

In the end, variety as Jman points out (who's an extremely brave Hunchback pilot, might I add--much respect) would be better for the game as a whole. Finding that "slot" where each weapon fits is important.

Back in January, a year ago, we were close to this. About the only thing creating problems was convergence. So while I think PPCs + ACs as a combo are game-breaking, the solution should be a bit creative but still allow for weapons to have their roles.

As much as I hated Mechwarrior 4, LBX Autocannons were done right. They were BRUTAL up close. My Hellbringer loved them. Mechwarrior 4 increased their damage by 40% up close, but at range, the spread made them very weak.

Wanderer has good suggestions, too. He's been around the series for a long time from my recollection. PPCs deconverging--or de-focusing is a good idea. Perhaps in a jump, their magnetic focus coils have trouble maintaining phase alignment due to vibrations or something.

One idea that I have toyed with is having them spread out the closer you get to your own mech... or do the opposite. Base the spread on their maximum range. At maximum range they are focused and tight, dealing damage to a single spot. When you get really close to a PPC mech, they spread damage among two or three components. It is kind of counter-intuitive as you'd think spread would be greater at range--but for game-balance sake, it'd be more with the spirit of the game and the weapon than the latter.

Autocannons I'm not sure what to do, other than perhaps force their shells to never go at the same spot as a twins would--or multiple shells for the larger caliber ones over a short time.

Ideally in the end, all of this could be wrapped up with removing pinpoint aim.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Ideally in the end, all of this could be wrapped up with removing pinpoint aim.

that would not resolve alot of issues out there. as has been pointed out multiple times now. I assume you are talking about weapon convergence though. If you are talking about truly not having your shots go where you place them.... then I think you just lost alot of your player base if thats the change you want....