479 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

that would not resolve alot of issues out there. as has been pointed out multiple times now. I assume you are talking about weapon convergence though. If you are talking about truly not having your shots go where you place them.... then I think you just lost alot of your player base if thats the change you want....

I'm in no way supportive of random weapon placement such as cone of fire.

What I would like to see is:
a. Fixed convergence at a set range. Either user-defined in the Mechlab or set by an attribute such as perhaps maximum effective range.

b. Weapons fire straight ahead.

But even then there are still mechs like the Highlander that are laughing. That chassis is just too darn good. It needs more negatives to it.

If you fix the rest before convergence, the gameplay will grow much richer.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'm in no way supportive of random weapon placement such as cone of fire.

What I would like to see is:
a. Fixed convergence at a set range. Either user-defined in the Mechlab or set by an attribute such as perhaps maximum effective range.

b. Weapons fire straight ahead.

But even then there are still mechs like the Highlander that are laughing. That chassis is just too darn good. It needs more negatives to it.

If you fix the rest before convergence, the gameplay will grow much richer.

ya hence what I was speaking of. And that is just one example. There is also the victor wich can do the same. The shadow Hawk can also mount 2 ac5 in a torso section.

These are just off the top of my head examples.

It would also be a nerf across the board, so whole jump snipers would get weaker so would everything else ttrying to attack them.

[Mister Blastman]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

ya hence what I was speaking of. And that is just one example. There is also the victor wich can do the same. The shadow Hawk can also mount 2 ac5 in a torso section.

These are just off the top of my head examples.

It would also be a nerf across the board, so whole jump snipers would get weaker so would everything else ttrying to attack them.

Except the SRM mechs if they reverted SRMs to back to how they used to be.

The Hunch 4SP might become useful again... no, a terror. I welcome that change. Same with Dragons. Those CT mounted SRMs would start dishing out pain once more.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Except the SRM mechs if they reverted SRMs to back to how they used to be.

The Hunch 4SP might become useful again... no, a terror. I welcome that change. Same with Dragons. Those CT mounted SRMs would start dishing out pain once more.

err.

with the exception of hit detection (beating a dead horse)

I love srm? c.c

I feel like im on an island out here for saying that and yes maybe im just good with them and YES i dont dare use them without artemis..... But with artemis.... omg they rip mechs apart in close. My most recent monster is my griffin with 4 srm 4 with artemis,. Jump capable terror that pounds things into the dirt and blocks with a whole side of its body.

[Mister Blastman]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I feel like im on an island out here

We're all on a bit of an island.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

We're all on a bit of an island.

*hands a beer* at least its a private island.

[Nihtgenga]

Since this thread is revolving over and over with the same buff/nerf weapon stats discussion and "they are not OP/UP, you just need the skill to circumvent/use it" zero-argument between blinders, which did not yield any real balancing progress during the patches last year, I'm quitting this thread for the purpose of saving futile spent bits.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

AC20 with a 203mm Slug should indeed be a heavenly hammer of the gods sir, and would always be the Weapon of choice for me over the high volume spray variant. ANd So long as I could have my single slug of pain you can have your AC2 in disguise!

Yes conversations should always either come to a compromise each side can bear to swallow, or a mutual understanding. You want a Rapid fire AC20 fine, you can have it, I'll take my slow thumper and meet you on the battlefields.

I would welcome the opportunity to test out different AC variations, even if the FLD version remained. I would LOVE for my AC40 jäger to have huge Gatling guns instead of thumpers, for example. Normalize ACs and I think you could have a ton of variations within each class to get exactly the feel each individual wants.

Prosperity Park, on 13 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

So... if Laser weapons' biggest drawbacks are damage spread, forcing a pilot to be exposed during the beam, and lack of frontloaded application...

... then all 3 of those symptoms would be alleviated by a shorter beam duration. Why is this idea not more widely supported? I see very few people suggest a simple beam duration reduction.

"We" are trying to reduce the front-loaded damage, not increase it. TTK is already too low, so we don't want to make it worse.

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I was using it as an example to show that people will continue to use weapons in ways with jump jets that will not allow you to damage them in turn. This will continue to be a dominant meta that will be used over and over and over again until you change the way JJ are instituted in the game.

And sniping from a non-JJ mech will be a dominant meta regardless of how you change jump jets. Cover is cover from that range.

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

One idea that I have toyed with is having them spread out the closer you get to your own mech... or do the opposite. Base the spread on their maximum range. At maximum range they are focused and tight, dealing damage to a single spot. When you get really close to a PPC mech, they spread damage among two or three components. It is kind of counter-intuitive as you'd think spread would be greater at range--but for game-balance sake, it'd be more with the spirit of the game and the weapon than the latter.

I think that's a cool idea. We have also discussed making it more like lightning, where it does a chunk of damage (maybe 4-6) where it hits and then spreads the rest to surrounding hitboxes. I also think treating it like a very small cone LBX would work great, though that would make it more of a brawler weapon than your solution would.

Nihtgenga, on 13 January 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Since this thread is revolving over and over with the same buff/nerf weapon stats discussion and "they are not OP/UP, you just need the skill to circumvent/use it" zero-argument between blinders, which did not yield any real balancing progress during the patches last year, I'm quitting this thread for the purpose of saving futile spent bits.

Don't worry, five new threads with this subject have been posted since this morning, so your bits will be spent just as futilely elsewhere

[Khobai]

Quote

Oddly enough, having Gauss be the only FLD with their current mechanics wouldn't be bad at all.

single gauss would be fine. dual gauss would still be overpowered even if it was the only FLD weapon.

Quote

How do you balance weapons yet keep them different?

I would make Autocannons fire in bursts, but implement different ammo types, to give autocannons versatility.

I would make PPCs do splash damage, but get rid of the much derided minimum range, and also give PPCs an emp effect that disrupts HUDs.

Im not sure what id do with gauss, but if a hypersonic projectile hit a hard target it would spiral around like crazy. So it wouldnt be too far fetched to have gauss spread its damage around. Maybe even make Gauss the only weapon that can get through armor crits.

That gets rid of pinpoint damage but keeps the weapons interesting and unique.

Quote

"We" are trying to reduce the front-loaded damage, not increase it. TTK is already too low, so we don't want to make it worse.

Yep damage is about 2-3 times higher than tabletop. Using a Hunchback as an example, in tabletop the chance to hit it in the right torso is only 14%. In MWO, its 100% with perfect aim. The right torso is taking 6 times more damage because of aiming. Even after dividing by double armor, the right torso is still taking 3 times more damage than it should. Thats why TTK is so low.

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

You actually wont. Keep in mind those same mechs are mobile and can turn to defuse fire better. Also at 200 meters those srm with artemis are more tightly packed then you know. Jump capability cant be stressed enough for its strength. That said im not against it. But I believe it needs to be altered in a way that makes jump sniping more difficult.

I don't think you understand. At 200m, you aren't poptarting. You're jumping up, shooting once, and I'm coming over the hill and thrashing you shortly thereafter- and if I can't, I'm backing out to 300m or so and laughing at you the next time you poptart and using you for target practice.

Poptarting takes actually having weapons with range that work at medium-if-not-long range. SRMs are not a "poptart" weapon, nor will they ever be. A frickin LB-X would be more effective at that than SRM racks, Artemis or no Artemis.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 13 January 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I don't think you understand. At 200m, you aren't poptarting. You're jumping up, shooting once, and I'm coming over the hill and thrashing you shortly thereafter- and if I can't, I'm backing out to 300m or so and laughing at you the next time you poptart and using you for target practice.

Poptarting takes actually having weapons with range that work at medium-if-not-long range. SRMs are not a "poptart" weapon, nor will they ever be. A frickin LB-X would be more effective at that than SRM racks, Artemis or no Artemis.

if you think its as easy as that. then your not doing many 12 mans. It really is not that easy.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

if you think its as easy as that. then your not doing many 12 mans. It really is not that easy.

Nothing but 12-mans. Again, you're going up and down vertically with a 'Mech that has no firepower outside of 270m. If you're hiding behind the hill and I'm at 271m, you have zero firepower- not even reduced damage, zero. If you come over the hill at me, you're not poptarting. If you get a whopping one shot at me before I break your cover, you're not poptarting any more than if you peeked around a corner and let off a salvo before I lined up a shot back and got it.

Poptarting is bouncing up and down on your pogo-stick-jets while blasting whatever's in LOS, usually with front-loaded weapons. SRMs that don't move are 270m of area denial and LOS target practice for anything with even so much as a medium laser bank. And I've been doing poptart tricks since the FIRST Mechwarrior was online, never mind MW2, 3, 4, or MWO. At under 300m, you're either denied your own cover after the first shot if they charge in, out of range by the second attempt as your opponent had the brains to back up and look for an opportunity to return fire, or dumb as rocks and missed you doing it completely and is spinning in circles wondering why his drool is fouling the control pedals while you do it again. You could have just sat there while your missiles reloaded and he tried to figure out what hit him in that case, never mind jumping. If life is really ironic,he's jumping over the hill just as you go up again, leaving you with your flaming buttcheeks lighting the way for him to ram an alpha strike right up the hitbox where the sun don't shine.

Ideally, you're not even trying the same trick twice. The first shot is jumping over the hill with those Artemis SRMs, number two is you having a clean shot on whatever got abused the most as you land in his blind spot and blowing the 'Mech clean out with a 3x6 or 4x6SRM- in other words, not a poptart but an ambush. Jump back over, let the seismics pick up the next dummy to wander by, repeat.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 13 January 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Nothing but 12-mans. Again, you're going up and down vertically with a 'Mech that has no firepower outside of 270m. If you're hiding behind the hill and I'm at 271m, you have zero firepower- not even reduced damage, zero. If you come over the hill at me, you're not poptarting. If you get a whopping one shot at me before I break your cover, you're not poptarting any more than if you peeked around a corner and let off a salvo before I lined up a shot back and got it.

Poptarting is bouncing up and down on your pogo-stick-jets while blasting whatever's in LOS, usually with front-loaded weapons. SRMs that don't move are 270m of area denial and LOS target practice for anything with even so much as a medium laser bank. And I've been doing poptart tricks since the FIRST Mechwarrior was online, never mind MW2, 3, 4, or MWO. At under 300m, you're either denied your own cover after the first shot if they charge in, out of range by the second attempt as your opponent had the brains to back up and look for an opportunity to return fire, or dumb as rocks and missed you doing it completely and is spinning in circles wondering why his drool is fouling the control pedals while you do it again. You could have just sat there while your missiles reloaded and he tried to figure out what hit him in that case, never mind jumping. If life is really ironic,he's jumping over the hill just as you go up again, leaving you with your flaming buttcheeks lighting the way for him to ram an alpha strike right up the hitbox where the sun don't shine.

Ideally, you're not even trying the same trick twice. The first shot is jumping over the hill with those Artemis SRMs, number two is you having a clean shot on whatever got abused the most as you land in his blind spot and blowing the 'Mech clean out with a 3x6 or 4x6SRM- in other words, not a poptart but an ambush. Jump back over, let the seismics pick up the next dummy to wander by, repeat.

your assuming the mech has no firepower outside of those ranges. Your also assuming they wont behave like most good jump snipers and fall back in a semi circle as people crest to take advantage of focused fire. These are very common tactics. Also increased mobility from not having to worry about ppc means they could be even faster. That said im just tossing out a few scenarios as to why it wouldnt help the predominant meta. They could still jump snipe with lasers and just continue to hit you from range while using jump jets and icnreased mobility to keep you at range. If you want to get it at the root change you need to change how jump sniping works, not the tools they are using.

[Lykaon]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Those same medium mechs tend to also be very good at turning there chasis to absorb damage, Keep in mind torso twisting is something that is faster based off engine size. Also keep in mind there is a limit to how many times you can alpha with ppc (and once you clsoe to 90 no times) and ac. They are heat inefficient compared to srm. In a close in fight at 90 meters the srm and laser win over the autocannon, hands down.

The question then becomes if the changes to JJ would be enoug to allow for a fine balance between the two. Its not even a question of wich is stronger in close.

Hence my proposed suggestion of making it more difficult to jump snipe but not impossible.

Torso twisting is also not as viable a tactic for medium mechs opposed to heavy and assault mechs when under pressure from 30-40 point alphas.

My wolverine 7k for example has one body location that I can afford to be without.The left arm is it,rotating my torso right will cost me my main weapon and only source of long ranged firepower.Turning left absorbs one hit,the next shot to the left has a decent chance of blowing my engine out.So to enhance longevity I need to essentially "feed" my mech to the enemy one piece at a time and sadly I only have one piece I can spare.

If a medium mech could actually absorb the levels of damage being tossed around they would not be nearly exstinct in 12 v 12 play.

As for the PPC number of shots or min. range you have a point if the mech is ONLY equiped with PPCs.My Highlander 733c for example has 2 AC5s 1 ER-PPC and 1 PPC.

4 weapons and only one with a min range. as for heat efficency I recomend you research a bit ACs are more heat efficent than SRMs.I have readily finished off foes with only the ACs.

I have a Griffin build I use it has max armor (-2 from LA) 300XL engine 12 DHS 4 JJs endo steel chassis it's armed with a large laser and 4 SRM6s with 5 tons of ammo. DPS is 5.65 heat efficency is 40%

I also have a Shadowhawk I use it also has max armor 300XL 10 DHS 3 JJs and an endo steel chassis.The shadow hawk is armed with 2 AC5 5 tons of ammo and a medium laser.It has 6.57 DPS and 83% heat efficency.

You will note that the weapons are about the only differences in these two chassis.As you see the SRMs do not posses higher DPS or superior cooling efficency.The SRM griffin however does dish a great deal more dispersed damage and is actually very good at killing injured mechs.The shadowhawk however is good at that and everything else.

Check for yourself the Autocannon is still superior at any range to srm/lasers builds in regards to DPS and heat efficency (and the AC still has concentrated damage as an advantage)

[Trauglodyte]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'm in no way supportive of random weapon placement such as cone of fire.

What I would like to see is:
a. Fixed convergence at a set range. Either user-defined in the Mechlab or set by an attribute such as perhaps maximum effective range.

b. Weapons fire straight ahead.

But even then there are still mechs like the Highlander that are laughing. That chassis is just too darn good. It needs more negatives to it.

If you fix the rest before convergence, the gameplay will grow much richer.

I actually think that this could be fixed with some basic changes:

• Split the arm reticles into two
  
• Put convergence speed back into the game
  
• Reduce arm speed by 25-50%
  
• Remove the "lock arms to torso" keybind
  
• Put in some heat penalties that would affect arm movement/reticle aim (I suggested something like 20-40% of current JJ penalty)
  
• Minimum convergence range on mechs without lower arm actuators set at 90m

Look at Villz latest video under the Gauss OP Nerf Type thread. Watching the vid, he always hits the L Shift button to lock his arms to his torso. That, alone, is a huge benefit to the already incredibly powerful JJ sniper alpha that is plaguing the game. By adding convergence back in and slowing down arm movement, you're forcing players to take their time when making long ranged shots with multiple weapons in multiple locations. I understand that PGI wants this game to be fun for people of all skill levels. But, there comes a time when you need to put in a skill level for people to manage.

Btw, one of the reasons that I've got some of the changes in there is if you make it so that aiming with arm located weapons is harder than it currently is by way of two seperate reticles, people will just gravitate to mechs that don't have lower arm actuators. That means less Victors, Highlanders, and 3Ds and more Jagers and Stalkers. You've got to be able to penalize everyone for the game environment. Seperate reticles won't affect said mechs wihtout actuators but it will still make it hard for them when they're running hot and fast.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 13 January 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Lykaon]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

err.

with the exception of hit detection (beating a dead horse)

I love srm? c.c

I feel like im on an island out here for saying that and yes maybe im just good with them and YES i dont dare use them without artemis..... But with artemis.... omg they rip mechs apart in close. My most recent monster is my griffin with 4 srm 4 with artemis,. Jump capable terror that pounds things into the dirt and blocks with a whole side of its body.

Do you find the 4x SRM4 + artemis is a better choice than 4x SRM6 without?

Also do you use a BAP on the artemis mech?

Standard or XL engine?

[wanderer]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

your assuming the mech has no firepower outside of those ranges. Your also assuming they wont behave like most good jump snipers and fall back in a semi circle as people crest to take advantage of focused fire. These are very common tactics. Also increased mobility from not having to worry about ppc means they could be even faster. That said im just tossing out a few scenarios as to why it wouldnt help the predominant meta. They could still jump snipe with lasers and just continue to hit you from range while using jump jets and icnreased mobility to keep you at range. If you want to get it at the root change you need to change how jump sniping works, not the tools they are using.

If you're packing Artemis'd 4x6 on a 55-ton chassis, you're not packing significant secondary firepower. You're an upgraded version of the old Centurion/Hunchback SRM-boomers with more mobility and a medium laser or two to back up the quad SRMs.

Not to mention that you can't fall back worth squat. If you do, you don't get to pop up and hose someone with SRMs again- as that only works if they crest and you can't lose much range if you want to fire them again anyway.. If they step back, you're trading fire with a range disadvantage the next time you pop up and they know it. If they DO crest and there was a bunch of you back there, he's either backing up and STAYING backed up after relaying that gem of info

It's like saying "I can poptart with small lasers". The whole point to being able to snipe is -reach-, and SRMs lack it. You have punch, but if you hide behind a hill, that firepower is a standoff at best and a paddling at worst because you can't keep up the pressure after the first barrage.

Try it sometime on the training grounds, even. Pop up. Randomly move your targeting reticule in small circles to represent that cone of fire and chainfire at the target for good measure to represent what that'd do to your targeting if they did. See how scattered your hits are. Did it seriously mangle the target or just ding up their armor all over the place? Do the same thing with your lasers- that's what a cone of fire will do when you're jumping and using a beam weapon- instead of being able to focus a location, you're doodling in cursive on him, the surrounding terrain, maybe a random passing bird or that turtle over there. He's firing back from a stable position- no cone from jumping - so he'll deliver whatever he does to you into fewer locations for more damage. That's not a winning situation, cover or no cover at that point.

[Varent]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Torso twisting is also not as viable a tactic for medium mechs opposed to heavy and assault mechs when under pressure from 30-40 point alphas.

My wolverine 7k for example has one body location that I can afford to be without.The left arm is it,rotating my torso right will cost me my main weapon and only source of long ranged firepower.Turning left absorbs one hit,the next shot to the left has a decent chance of blowing my engine out.So to enhance longevity I need to essentially "feed" my mech to the enemy one piece at a time and sadly I only have one piece I can spare.

If a medium mech could actually absorb the levels of damage being tossed around they would not be nearly exstinct in 12 v 12 play.

As for the PPC number of shots or min. range you have a point if the mech is ONLY equiped with PPCs.My Highlander 733c for example has 2 AC5s 1 ER-PPC and 1 PPC.

4 weapons and only one with a min range. as for heat efficency I recomend you research a bit ACs are more heat efficent than SRMs.I have readily finished off foes with only the ACs.

I have a Griffin build I use it has max armor (-2 from LA) 300XL engine 12 DHS 4 JJs endo steel chassis it's armed with a large laser and 4 SRM6s with 5 tons of ammo. DPS is 5.65 heat efficency is 40%

I also have a Shadowhawk I use it also has max armor 300XL 10 DHS 3 JJs and an endo steel chassis.The shadow hawk is armed with 2 AC5 5 tons of ammo and a medium laser.It has 6.57 DPS and 83% heat efficency.

You will note that the weapons are about the only differences in these two chassis.As you see the SRMs do not posses higher DPS or superior cooling efficency.The SRM griffin however does dish a great deal more dispersed damage and is actually very good at killing injured mechs.The shadowhawk however is good at that and everything else.

Check for yourself the Autocannon is still superior at any range to srm/lasers builds in regards to DPS and heat efficency (and the AC still has concentrated damage as an advantage)

to build off this.

Some mechs are better at twisting then others. I will say the wolverines arent amazing at it, but the griffins actually tend to be very good and so are the S-hawks.. Then there is the TT masers the centurion. Of the assaults, obviously the atlas, excel at it. The victor and highlander are also both decent. I have mixed feelings on the orion. Ive heard some swear by it but its hit and miss for me personally.

That said if your good at TT and playing a mech good at it you shouldnt have many issues.

[Varent]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Do you find the 4x SRM4 + artemis is a better choice than 4x SRM6 without?

Also do you use a BAP on the artemis mech?

Standard or XL engine?

I never use BAP on an artemis.

Standard or xl depends heavily.... For example I like xl on my wolverine because ive found they dont TT as well so I like them with more speed. But with the Griffin I swear by standard.

Funny enough srm 4... they register better.... but that said its hard to resist the srm 6.... I use both but favor the 4 overall if I want more stability. Also the 4 have a tighter spread.

[Monky]

Contrary to OP's point, time to kill can still come down. Nerfing AC's in comparison to buffing lasers accomplishes this and also puts weapons on the same level.