479 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

.... light mechs do not need a buff. and large laser buffs would effect energy boats alot more then a medium laser buff.

That said most balistic users and balistic boats (jump sniper exception) use medium lasers. Thats fairly common. Also most srm close in medium mechs use mediums as well. They use them because the large laser isnt worth it. That should say alot.

Light Mechs are not getting a buff, their weapons are. And those same weapons are also used by the Hunchback-4P... All 9 of them! Is that a truly scary mech?

[Bront]

Livewyr, on 09 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Without reading the thread- All I will add is:

One shouldn't always "buff weapons to make them competitive with other weapons."
Often, a nerf to the other weapons is needed otherwise, the maxim would be to make all of the weapons too powerful and reduce the purpose of Armor. (Example: People called for the PPC to be buffed because it couldn't compete with the Gauss Rifle...then PPCs got buffed, became all too powerful for the armor in the game... 1-shotting and 2-shotting mechs.. "PPCmageddon" and now they're back where they were and the Gauss Rifle got nerfed.)

Consider this: because all weapons were given 3x the RoF or more over TT..(as well as precision aim) armor had to be doubled. Now take that concept and buff the attributes of weapons to be in line with the strongest weapons we have now. Armor would become a superficial aspect of the game.

That is all.

I agree with this. Lasers need a buff. SRMs need a fix to hit reg and then need to be adjusted from there. Ballistics still need a nerf though (I'm in favor of an ROF nerf of the AC5 and 2, maybe a range adjustment of the AC5 back to closer to TT, and maybe returning to a 2X range, which ends balistic sniper fest as well as makes the AC10 viable as a good mid-range high damage AC. LRM

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

True but we have been Nerfing enough. Buffs are needed. For the sake of balance!

Again, if we buff too much, we won't have enough armor. It's a balancing act, and that generally requires things be able to go both ways.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bront, on 09 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

I agree with this. Lasers need a buff. SRMs need a fix to hit reg and then need to be adjusted from there. Ballistics still need a nerf though (I'm in favor of an ROF nerf of the AC5 and 2, maybe a range adjustment of the AC5 back to closer to TT, and maybe returning to a 2X range, which ends balistic sniper fest as well as makes the AC10 viable as a good mid-range high damage AC. LRM

Again, if we buff too much, we won't have enough armor. It's a balancing act, and that generally requires things be able to go both ways.

We haven't Buffed a weapon in I cannot remember when!

[Bront]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

.... light mechs do not need a buff. and large laser buffs would effect energy boats alot more then a medium laser buff.

That said most balistic users and balistic boats (jump sniper exception) use medium lasers. Thats fairly common. Also most srm close in medium mechs use mediums as well. They use them because the large laser isnt worth it. That should say alot.

You do realize I'm advocating BOTH the LL and ML get a buff? (and the SL as well)? LL wouldn't be left out in the cold.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

We haven't Buffed a weapon in I cannot remember when!

SRM and SSRM damage increases just prior to "launch". You could argue the Gauss speed increase was a buff, but that was to counter the charge nerf.

Edited by Bront, 09 January 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

I think the last was...the LBX-10 tighter spread? Or was it the increased ROF and range for the AC5?

[Varent]

Bront, on 09 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

You do realize I'm advocating BOTH the LL and ML get a buff? (and the SL as well)? LL wouldn't be left out in the cold.

I do, and im against a buff of weapons primarly used on light mechs since it would overpower them past where they should be. There is a fragile balance in the game right now that can be easily shaken by a buff to energy weapons. A buff to large lasers would not upset that balance and would actually fix alot of underused chasis without inadvertently putting light mechs at an advantage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bront, on 09 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

You do realize I'm advocating BOTH the LL and ML get a buff? (and the SL as well)? LL wouldn't be left out in the cold.


SRM and SSRM damage increases just prior to "launch". You could argue the Gauss speed increase was a buff, but that was to counter the charge nerf.

So it was reset back to a more robust damage 4 months ago? Gauss was given a speed Buff... Present Rail guns velocity is 2.4 Kilometers per second! So Our Gauss is a bit slower at 2,000m per second. Could use that final Buff to make it as fast as present Rail guns! Or not since the projectile is only 7 lbs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 January 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Light Mechs are not getting a buff, their weapons are. And those same weapons are also used by the Hunchback-4P... All 9 of them! Is that a truly scary mech?

And interestingly as a point it isn't really a buff. It is a recognition of the lack of potential in comparison to other weapons so I would see it more as a correction. Which as suggested as a slight adjustment as needs would ideally and by design not make them into the next FOTM at all. So I don't really want to pander to the alarmist reactions about slightly adjusting MLs.

A mild or subtle boost to MLs will make them more viable for the game for multiple platforms which is more fair, but not improved so much that is generates new FOTM, which considering that it is a correction purely based on potentials suggest only an adjustment to stop other Meta being so dominant. Which seems to be lost in this argument about MLs being scary or that people are forgetting just how other weapons are in fact more "scary" as per the analogy given. This adjustment then amongst other considerations has the potential to help the short game in a Meta considerably dominated by long range Meta, but by design try not to simply create new FOTM.

(Potential for MLs: around 50%. LLs: 60%. So MLs need something in terms of use. LL's are not too dissimilar to values for ballistics by comparative potentials.)

More importantly with it being a correction it means that lighter Mechs more constrained by weapon choices and build options will be able to have an equivalently viable weapon as a result in theory.

E.g. Reduction of heat on ML from 4 to 3.5 won't change their damage per shot or their capabilities due to the beam mechanic all it will do is apply more sustainability to use the weapon. This making it a more effective damage over time weapon than the ballistic hammers. If a compromise is needed to make GH down to 5 ML becasue people are concerned about alpha weapons then I'd be happy with that since it would mean that more managed builds or arrangements with lesser numbers of weapons like lights and mediums generally would not be as restricted as their heavier counterparts.

If anything the bias to LLs which seem to work ok would be more of a bias against lighter Mechs as a result who cannot fit them or sustain them as well as the other larger roles. So if anything turning this arrangement on its head is actually a further Nerf to Lighter Mechs that in comparison to lifting the constraints they suffer from with this comparative lack of effectiveness.

Please notice that lack of effectiveness does not mean useless, just a disparity. And by intention the suggested heat change doesn't change the flavour of how these weapons work or are used in their roles based on their other characteristics and balance mechanisms.

Edited by Noesis, 09 January 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Bront]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

I do, and im against a buff of weapons primarly used on light mechs since it would overpower them past where they should be. There is a fragile balance in the game right now that can be easily shaken by a buff to energy weapons. A buff to large lasers would not upset that balance and would actually fix alot of underused chasis without inadvertently putting light mechs at an advantage.

Seeing some of the light builds out there, I tend to disagree that lights are fully balanced, and the buffs I suggested (lower heat and slightly faster cycle time) I don't think would push lights into over the top OPedness. Also, keep in mind, that the same weapons they tend to use are the weapons that generally work best against them, so it's not entirely one-sided.

I can appreciate your intent there though at least

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

So it was reset back to a more robust damage 4 months ago? Gauss was given a speed Buff... Present Rail guns velocity is 2.4 Kilometers per second! So Our Gauss is a bit slower at 2,000m per second. Could use that final Buff to make it as fast as present Rail guns! Or not since the projectile is only 7 lbs.

Using reality to balance things isn't a good idea. Using reality in a game about giant robots is probably even worse

I can deal with some reality departure for the sake of balance where it may make sense.

[Varent]

Bront, on 09 January 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Seeing some of the light builds out there, I tend to disagree that lights are fully balanced, and the buffs I suggested (lower heat and slightly faster cycle time) I don't think would push lights into over the top OPedness. Also, keep in mind, that the same weapons they tend to use are the weapons that generally work best against them, so it's not entirely one-sided.

Ok let me break it down by issue. Currently lights kill assauls, sometimes heavies and lose to mediums. That said a fight with an assault takes time at least and you have to be a good pilot. Your skill is rewarded with a kill. You have to get behind the assault and core them from behind wich takes time to get in range and get in place and alot of speeding up and slowing down to stay behind them. Light mechs that are designed like this are using medium/small lasers.

If you reduce beam duration of lower heat or increase range you are upsetting this and putting the light mech at an even higher advantage and basically might as well toss a tombstone over any assault out there that gets a light on top of them. Conversely lasers while they are 'consistent' damage are not the best weapon against a light mech. That tends to be autocannon srm and ssrm.

[kapusta11]

High disipation will buff (I'd say fix, but anyways) all energy weapons without affecting light mechs since light weight lasers produce low enough heat for you to fire them for 30 secs already.

Edited by kapusta11, 09 January 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Noesis]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Ok let me break it down by issue. Currently lights kill assauls, sometimes heavies and lose to mediums. That said a fight with an assault takes time at least and you have to be a good pilot. Your skill is rewarded with a kill. You have to get behind the assault and core them from behind wich takes time to get in range and get in place and alot of speeding up and slowing down to stay behind them. Light mechs that are designed like this are using medium/small lasers.

If you reduce beam duration of lower heat or increase range you are upsetting this and putting the light mech at an even higher advantage and basically might as well toss a tombstone over any assault out there that gets a light on top of them. Conversely lasers while they are 'consistent' damage are not the best weapon against a light mech. That tends to be autocannon srm and ssrm.

I disagree for reasons that:

Wolfpack > Assault and that these changes don't stop Assaults using weapons more designed to handle lights. Interestingly of course they could fit MLs for that very purpose.

However overall given the mobility of lights, other lights or light killer mediums with the use of lasers and streaks are the sure fire way of dealing with these Mechs to destruction, not "pot shotting" with ballistics or assuming you can chase them down in an slow and less agile Assault Mech. And again due to ideal interplay and teamwork can help support Assaults which still needs it weaknesses as is the understanding from Lore.

Any light pilot with some grey matter wont try to attack a blob or Assault Mechs with accompanying support as they can work together to eliminate the lights mobility by degrees of separation in supporting to defend each other.

[Noesis]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

High disipation will buff (I'd say fix, but anyways) all energy weapons without affecting light mechs since light weight lasers produce low enough heat for you to fire them for 30 secs already.

Yes improvements to heat dissipation and lowering cap as opposed to what we have now would be an overall better fix to incorporate heat needs for more managed arrangements for sure. But PGI have not wanting to move from their GH model so far.

[Sandpit]

I saw in here somewhere that someone had suggested adjusting beam damage by having lasers front load a bit f their damage. The mroe I think about it the more I like that idea as well. Have 50% of a lasers damage done upon initial impact but have the remaining 50% spread throughout the beam duration. It would give them a slightly higher punch on the front end

[Bront]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Ok let me break it down by issue. Currently lights kill assauls, sometimes heavies and lose to mediums. That said a fight with an assault takes time at least and you have to be a good pilot. Your skill is rewarded with a kill. You have to get behind the assault and core them from behind wich takes time to get in range and get in place and alot of speeding up and slowing down to stay behind them. Light mechs that are designed like this are using medium/small lasers.

If you reduce beam duration of lower heat or increase range you are upsetting this and putting the light mech at an even higher advantage and basically might as well toss a tombstone over any assault out there that gets a light on top of them. Conversely lasers while they are 'consistent' damage are not the best weapon against a light mech. That tends to be autocannon srm and ssrm.

On the other hand, Assaults and heavies are more nimble than they should be, so a skilled assault or heavy pilot can often fend off a light (a well piloted heavy is the bane of a light honestly), keeping lights at bay and making it harder to bring their weapons to bear. The balance you state is what SHOULD be the case, but really, mediums aren't in a great spot because larger mechs are more mobile, and larger mechs can maneuver pretty well unless a light is incredibly close (IE, under 90 M).

Meanwile, I mention that lasers counter lights (as do SSRMs) because you can hit them much easier. Sure, Balistics can take them out in 1 shot, but up close, it's hard to get that shot off (Same issue with SRMs)

[Varent]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I disagree for reasons that:

Wolfpack > Assault and that these changes don't stop Assaults using weapons more designed to handle lights. Interestingly of course they could fit MLs for that very purpose.

However overall given the mobility of lights, other lights or light killer mediums with the use of lasers and streaks are the sure fire way of dealing with these Mechs to destruction, not "pot shotting" with ballistics or assuming you can chase them down in an slow and less agile Assault Mech. And again due to ideal interplay and teamwork can help support Assaults which still needs it weaknesses as is the understanding from Lore.

Any light pilot with some grey matter wont try to attack a blob or Assault Mechs with accompanying support as they can work together to eliminate the lights mobility by degrees of separation in supporting to defend each other.

I agree on principle of team play vs solo play. However I believe we are talking mostly about the concepts of one on one interaction and the interplay between the two?

If we are talking about teamwork and mixing it in with the topic of buffing then this entire conversation becomes very different. That said while YES assault mechs can take items for killing lights (ssrm, balistic, etc) Its still a long shot since maintaining a lock with ssrm is iffy (especialy when they are behind you) and the balistic is usually only if you are a very skilled player or get lucky. Medium lasers, as stated are poor at hitting fast moving targets and excel at hitting slow moving ones creating a very heavy imbalance.

Bront, on 09 January 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

On the other hand, Assaults and heavies are more nimble than they should be, so a skilled assault or heavy pilot can often fend off a light (a well piloted heavy is the bane of a light honestly), keeping lights at bay and making it harder to bring their weapons to bear. The balance you state is what SHOULD be the case, but really, mediums aren't in a great spot because larger mechs are more mobile, and larger mechs can maneuver pretty well unless a light is incredibly close (IE, under 90 M).

Meanwile, I mention that lasers counter lights (as do SSRMs) because you can hit them much easier. Sure, Balistics can take them out in 1 shot, but up close, it's hard to get that shot off (Same issue with SRMs)

it all comes down to interplay. most of the time a light mech will beat an assault though I would say 9 times out of 10, And now and then they will give a heavy a run for there money, depending on the loadout of the heavy. meanwhile medium mechs should downright kill them, Especially since many of them can run multiple missles, machine gun and lasers wich can in concert take down a mech while not allowing them to get behind to there vulnerable rear due to there own greater mobility.

This said keep in mind speed is god in mwo and the faster the mech, the harder it is to hit it. This lends alot of additional boosts to the light mechs wich you may not be taking into account when buffing an item that is highly used by them.

[Noesis]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

creating a very heavy imbalance.

Not by intentional design of trying to correct things. How does making MLs have slight better sustainability make Lights any harder or easier to hit? It is a subtle change to the weapon for managed use. And due to ML's "versatility" is available equally to the assault as a back up weapon for lights as much as the light. So they benefit from their use if they want an optional counter that might help them for these purposes even if they don't more sensible rely on their buddies to help them.

I really fail to see any major problems with it. It isn't "out of proportion" as a suggestion, it is a change that is viable to all platforms with an energy hard point and I have said the idea is definitely not to make the "sky fall in" but to help readdress a balance to the short game that is apparently missing in the current Meta.

All I see is a lack of compromise to help address a problem by being belligerent to any change that might diversely effect the Assault class as per "your interpretation". And yet lighter Mechs are already diversely effected by the existing disparity as their potentials are compromised with one of their limited weapon choices.

Edited by Noesis, 09 January 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Not by intentional design of trying to correct things. How does making MLs have slight better sustainability make Lights any harder or easier to hit? It is a subtle change to the weapon for managed use. And due to ML's "versatility" is available equally to the assault as a back up weapon for lights as much as the light. So they benefit from their use if they want an optional counter that might help them for these purposes even if they don't more sensible rely on their buddies to help them.

I really fail to see any major problems with it. It isn't "out of proportion" as a suggestion, it is a change that is viable to all platforms with an energy hard point and I have said the idea is definitely not to make the "sky fall in" but to help readdress a balance to the short game that is apparently missing in the current Meta.

All I see is a lack of compromise to help address a problem by being belligerent to any change that might diversely effect the Assault class as per "your interpretation". And yet lighter Mechs are already diversely effected by the existing disparity as their potentials are compromised with one of their limited weapon choices.

Im actually not trying be belligerent at all. Im sorry if its coming across that way. However I am actually advocating changes to laser weapons that will benefit a large number of mechs and make them more viable without (as ive said) changing the game balance inadvertently. For all the shortcomings you may feel light mechs have, I actually greatly enjoy playing them and do quite well in them. Most of the changes that have been suggested. (increased range of medium lasers, shorter duration of beam,,,, etc etc,) I simply feel would make them a touch to overpowering. But I will fully admit im coming from a position where I see light mechs in a very good place right now. This is with the consideration of they currently do not have many E-Tools made available to them effectively and they are essentially a super fast flanking and capping unit. That said if there were more E-Tools made available to them and the game were to change into something that is more friendly towards those things then I think that perhaps actually small lasers might have to be looked at again.

Honestly Im having alot of trouble seeing medium lasers as needing a buff. It may be just because I love them and use them ALOT and do well with them. It may be because all of my friends use them alot as well.... but I cant foresee a change to them being a good thing.

[Bront]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

it all comes down to interplay. most of the time a light mech will beat an assault though I would say 9 times out of 10,

Should? probably. In game? It depends on the pilot. In my Atlas, I rarely fear a solo Light, as I can usually out maneuver them enough to keep them in my sights and fend them off for a while till I either wear them down or help arrives. In my victor? I can hunt lights. In my stalkers and Battlemaster? Outside of the missile boat, they pack enough lasers to keep the lights at bay outside of a swarm and can usually protect my back.

Meanwhile, in my Jenners, Ravens, Commandos, Locusts and Cicadas (they're big lights), I find Atlases fairly easy targets if they're slow, they sacked their leg armor, or they are busy attacking another mech. If they're focused on me, it depends on the skill of the pilot. A good pilot can fend me off (or simply kill me if they have the right anti-light weapons), a poor pilot can't deal with the speed well. It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be in MWO (like it should be to some degree more than it is). The biggest problems these mechs tend to have honestly is heat, since they can't fit as many HS as larger mechs, and when taking down a larger mech will need to be firing constantly more than the larger mech. the buffs I suggested would, IMHO, go further to make lights competitive against more assaults. It would also buff mediums a bit for similar reasons, and make LLs more competitive on heavies/assaults.

<disclaimer. I am in no way attempting to brag about how good/bad a pilot I am. I'm simply noting from my experiences, as well as observations from watching/playing with others, there is a thread on mech agility that explains why heavies/assautls are too agile though that's a good read>

[Noesis]

Clearly your "opinions" are known to me, Varent.

I'll leave it to PGI to decide.

Expect more incoming ballistic nerfs then?