106 replies to this topic

[kesuga7]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Present 203 mm Canons fire at a rate 1 shell every 6 seconds and a 150mm cannon fires once every 15 seconds... which is weird I confess cause it is a smaller shell!

i wasn't implying that everything pulled from BT 'fluff' /TT is going to work


but how does a hunchback shoot something that even a atlas has to be standing still to do 0.o

dat hunch though

Edited by kesuga7, 08 January 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[DaZur]

EvilCow, on 08 January 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Actually burst fire is such a bad idea that we could see it at some point.

Bite your tongue...

Edited by DaZur, 08 January 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[kesmai]

Skyfaller, on 08 January 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Stop right there. That's incorrect.

It did 20 damage to ONE LOCATION.. AT RANDOM.

If you have not noticed the issue in MWO is the pinpoint delivery of TWO ac20s to ONE location with literally no aiming or exposure time (turn torso 90 degrees, click, boom! 40 damage to one armor location).

Four lasers in TT had each laser hitting a different part of the enemy mech for 5 damage, not spreading each laser's damage all over it as it does in MWO.

don´t argue.
it´s pointless and drained in a flood of words
oh and i repeat myself:


i don´t see that the one hit one locations fits a first person simulator, infact all the mech sims this far just weren´t giving a damned thing about the lore wise implementation of ac´s and the consequences following.
the only thing i see here is a chance, not an obstacle.

Edited by kesmai, 08 January 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[DaZur]

Good lord... Imagine the level of QQ'ing if AC/20's issued 20 1-point rounds @ .5 second interval at a pull of the trigger.

... Now imagine the AC-40 Jager. Talk about an "area suppression" weapon!

I'm not even going to wander into the Clan Ultra-20 nightmare...

[kesmai]

or a 4 ac/5 phract just denying movement.
but hey today i learned: it´s good as it is.

[Tezcatli]

The projectile speed nerfs seem like the right idea. You still deliver the same damage. But it takes more skill in leading your shots. Also makes it harder to sync up ACs with the faster PPCs.

[Joseph Mallan]

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

i wasn't implying that everything pulled from BT 'fluff' /TT is going to work


but how does a hunchback shoot something that even a atlas has to be standing still to do 0.o

dat hunch though

Different AC model... different recoil Comp?

DaZur, on 08 January 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Good lord... Imagine the level of QQ'ing if AC/20's issued 20 1-point rounds @ .5 second interval at a pull of the trigger.

... Now imagine the AC-40 Jager. Talk about an "area suppression" weapon!

I'm not even going to wander into the Clan Ultra-20 nightmare...

Make a Piranha look like a Minnow!

[Tesunie]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

None of this matters. It's pure fluff. It's not represented in any battletech rules. It isn't included in the balance.

If you are going to use battletech as a starting point for balance, you need to use the actual GAME RULES, not the pointless fluff that was added as filler material to the sourcebooks.

If you go by this ideology, then lasers should also shoot in one shot and hit only one location, instead of the beam durations we see now. Then, this topic should be about "doing lasers right" not "doing ac's right".

Personally, I see that each weapon system as they are done now help to give individual feel and use to each system. I'd personally like to see a way to balance these systems in a way that they retain their current standing mechanics. Of course, this is my opinion.

[Bishop Steiner]

kesmai, on 08 January 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

that is for a TT game with rounds and dices quite good.
i don´t see that the one hit one locations fits a first person simulator, infact all the mech sims this far just weren´t giving a damned thing about the lore wise implementation of ac´s and the consequences following.
the only thing i see here is a chance, not an obstacle.

then go play them and leave this for those of us who don't want to play PaperCut Warrior Online because you can't use situational awareness to not get ambushed by the big bad BoomJager.

Tired of being polite, the QQ on this forum is just asinine.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[FireSlade]

A quick an easy (may or may not be) to prevent weapon groupings from hitting a single point may just be in the whole aiming area of the game. PGI decided to go with instant aiming and close to instant convergence relying on skill to be the determining factor. That is fine and very unlikely to change.

My suggestion follows Newton’s Third Law of Motion and then uses a variable already in the game called impulse. Impulse is basically Kinetic force that causes our screens to shake every time we are hit with a projectile. By using impulse mixed with a math formula that would determine how much of a cone of fire to use; thus coming up with a Ghost Heat style balancing called “Recoil”. This would only matter if you fired more than 1 kinetic style weapon or a large caliber weapon in conjunction with others. So 6 MLs would still hit one point but 6 MLs + AC20 would spread the damage some or 2 AC10s may hit different locations. If the player/pilot waited between shots like if they fired the AC then waited 0.25-0.5 seconds before firing again that gives the mech time to absorb and compensate for the recoil allowing for pin point accuracy; but if they group too many weapons with impulse or do not allow for the mech to compensate then the damage spreads out some. Think of any FPS like Battlefront or even COD. Standing still and firing one shot while ADS and you get a bullet that hits the same spot every time. Now if you hold down the trigger and empty your magazine then you just spray the bullets and you may or may not kill the enemy.

This way we keep all the bonuses of ACs, PPCs, and the Gauss Rifle with less 30+ damage to a single location. It is simple, easy to understand (maybe not the way I said it), Cryengine is designed for something like this, and balances Ballistics some without the Ghost heat. No need to have Ghost heat for the AC2 or AC20 and lets us use the Ghost heat to balance the energy weapons. Now if only I can pass this idea to the Devs and see what they think.

[Sandpit]

kesmai, on 08 January 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

stop the fantasy numbers and start with modelling ac´s according to lore.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

http://www.sarna.net...kill_Roll_Table
Piloting skill table

What does it have to do with this thread and MWO? Not much really. Because this isn't TT or Sarna and this is coming form a long-time TT player. We need to move away from "lore and canon" arguments.

[Bagheera]

Skyfaller, on 08 January 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

If you have not noticed the issue in MWO is the pinpoint delivery of TWO ac20s to ONE location with literally no aiming or exposure time (turn torso 90 degrees, click, boom! 40 damage to one armor location).

Actually, no, he mentioned that from the beginning.

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

The problem that folks are generally running into isn't that the AC20 does point damage.. it's that when you combine a ton of guns, they all fuse into a single uber-gun. This has been a problem that has plagued mechwarrior FOREVER. We've seen the issue in every single mechwarrior title to date.

[Roland]

Tezcatli, on 08 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Also makes it harder to sync up ACs with the faster PPCs.

Unless you're using AC5's, which already paired better with PPC's.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Different AC model... different recoil Comp?


Make a Piranha look like a Minnow!

We're gonna need a bigger mech

[Bishop Steiner]

Tezcatli, on 08 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

The projectile speed nerfs seem like the right idea. You still deliver the same damage. But it takes more skill in leading your shots. Also makes it harder to sync up ACs with the faster PPCs.

eh. It's not like either one were terribly effective sniper weapons to begin with. The speed nerf just hurt them at range, not up close and personal where most of the ballisticrape occurs.

Convergence, and situational CoF, along with sized hardpoints, = no problem.

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

i wasn't implying that everything pulled from BT 'fluff' /TT is going to work


but how does a hunchback shoot something that even a atlas has to be standing still to do 0.o

dat hunch though

an Atlas had to stand still to use an AC20?

[DaZur]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Unless you're using AC5's, which already paired better with PPC's.

In fairness... I don't recall much QQ'ing over 25 point alphas.

[kesuga7]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Different AC model... different recoil Comp?


Make a Piranha look like a Minnow!

hmm well the sarna ac 20 weapon varaint link you gave just redirected me to the main AC 20 page
whats the difference between all the damage in a single blow over a single shot like the 203 MM AC 20

[Sandpit]

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

i wasn't implying that everything pulled from BT 'fluff' /TT is going to work


but how does a hunchback shoot something that even a atlas has to be standing still to do 0.o

dat hunch though

when has an Atlas ever had to stand still in game to shoot anything? lol

Please don't quote anything out of novels. That's called dramatization, not game mechanics

[Tezcatli]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Unless you're using AC5's, which already paired better with PPC's.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if they're next. In fact that's what I thought they would do. But instead they went after the AC20 and AC10. Guess they figured the heavier weapons are more the threat.

[kesuga7]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

eh. It's not like either one were terribly effective sniper weapons to begin with. The speed nerf just hurt them at range, not up close and personal where most of the ballisticrape occurs.

Convergence, and situational CoF, along with sized hardpoints, = no problem.


an Atlas had to stand still to use an AC20?

a single shot 203mm i believe just to brace itself
@sandpit that was just battletech talk course never ingame it would work
@your new post steiner - im still pretty new to battle tech it seems :|

However if recoil was adding into the game it would be a neat way to balance ballistics a bit more , so implying your less stable while running 90kph with ballistics moving at slower speeds would help reduce the recoil?
just a idea to help man the jumpjetting AC fire less accurate

Edited by kesuga7, 08 January 2014 - 11:05 AM.