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Easy Way To Fix Jump-Snipers


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#21 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:13 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:


That is a lie. But keep trying.


Actually it was true. In the closed beta there were no poptarts.

The reason for this however, was that the only mechs with Jumpjets were the Jenners and the Catapults (minus the K2 of course). Jenners are bad poptarts even now... so no change there. LRMs, SRMs and SSRMs were far too good to waste loads of heat and slots for PPCs (Which were too hot then anyways with only single heat sinks). The poptarting only came later when enough viable mechs were playable and DHS was added to be able to realistically cool 2+ PPCs/ERPPCs.

However... currently there is a good balance between poptarts, AC40s, LRMs (lower ELO mostly) and loads of other OP metas such as Locusts, Dragons, Awsomes and Trenchbuckets. I still see no overabundance of poptarting currently. I see more ERPPC Cicadas than poptarts in PUG games. 12v12 I see more Russians with their "skillfull" 8 Assaults, 2 Lights and 2 2d2 setups.... makes me really happy that their "skill" will be completely useless as soon as weight maximum limits are implemented.

#22 Gorgo7

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:16 AM

Jump sniping is simply a tactic and perfectly valid.

Nothing needs fixing.

#23 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:25 AM

View PostGorgo7, on 09 January 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Jump sniping is simply a tactic and perfectly valid.

Nothing needs fixing.

But one not commonly used in Canon is the problem. Firing weapons while flying/leaping a multi ton land based vehicle through the air was said to be next to impossible. Now cause you can do it in a computer game sitting in a comfy chair under normal Gees does not mean you COULD do it if actually in a simulated experiment. Try hitting a building with a paint ball as you are launched in the air by one of those sling shot Carnival rides! :P

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 January 2014 - 07:25 AM.


#24 Varent

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:29 AM

Jump sniping is currently the most prominent meta and the major source of lack of diversity in organized 12 man drops. That is not to say there isnt alot of diversity in pugs, even at higher ELO. But once you get into organized 12 mans they are very very recurrent. I personally see this as a major issue since it effects not only the diversity of the game but also the general feel and may lead many to believe they cannot be competitive unless they use those builds.

There are more then a few ways this can be dubbed down abit without overall effecting peoples ability to jump snipe.

Currently any class CAN in fact jump snipe but some weights simply tend to be better at it. Generally Heavy and Assault mechs and some medium mechs. Light mechs can jump snipe as well but its alot larger of an investment for them and they tend to be better with erlarge lasers or as close in disruptors and scouts. Because of this I propose a change to the way jump jets are implimented in mwo as well as an overall change to how jump jets change jumping in general.

Currently 1 jump jet costs very little overall weight and provides an immense amount of mobility for a mech. This needs to be changed and although it isnt perfectly canon im hoping people can step away from that for abit to hear me out.

I feel the weight on jump jets for medium, heavies and assault mechs should be increased by at least one ton. In addition the amount of spade jump jets use up should be doubled as well so they take up 2 slots and not one.

I also feel the jump mechanism should be changed. Currently your {LT-MOB-25} pit shakes quite abit on the way up but does not shake at all on the way down. Also the targeting recticle stays perfectly together on the way down as well without much disorientation. These two things can easily be changed and make quite abit of a change to the system. In addition throwing a 90 ton machine up into the air and then letting it land unguided down heavily onto the ground with very little damage to its legs is a little.... off.... here are just a few of the ways all of these changes can be implimented. (keep in mind im not suggesting them all but rather just offering a few thoughts that have already been suggested on multiple forums in a concise fashion.

First off you can make it so the cockpit continues to shake even on the way down unless the mech has a number of jump jets equiped. My personal thought is add in another jump jet needed per class for the ability to actually jump snipe. As I said before light mechs are already rare to see as jump snipers so I dont see a reason for them to need more, however create a system in wich medium mechs need at least 2, heavy mechs need 3 and assault mechs need 4. Keep in mind again this would only be for the degree the screen shakes on the way down. If you just want the mobility of a jump jet you can continue to use it just for that as you dart about the battle field. But if you want your recticle to stay still on the down drop you need your jump jets to allow you to have a nice easy decent.

Just to show you this would not utterly destroy jump sniping I want to show an example

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e6563d1da54202

This mech has 4 tons extra free that it could use to accept the additional weight. It also has slots free to accept the additional size of the jump jets. What this does however is limit the engine size and make it so you have to specialize into this position. It creates a special niche for jump sniping and makes a player really have to work to build around it. This further allows other mech designs to shine in additional ways since they have more weight available to use to perhaps try to counter with.

These changes would not effect mechs at all who are currently using jump jets simply for mobility with the exception of a minor extra ton and extra slot wich most can easily fit in with a little tweaking. It also would not inadvertently effect light mechs at all.

I hope these thoughts will be recieved well.

#25 DaZur

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:31 AM

I'm completely against any effort to further limit access to any specific playstyle as the last thing I want to do it take away our freedom of choice... I believe all mechs, and all inherent tactics derived from them belong on the battlefield... That said, I'm not opposed to increasing difficulty levels to invigorate soft nerfs to derive balance. :P

Honestly... I think all pop-tarts need (or general game-play for that matter) is Newtons Law of motion. In short, all ballistic weapons should have commensurate amount of recoil. When JJ'ing...In the air, that recoil would cause rotation or flight deviation... on the ground it's would temporarily interrupt the aim-point...

Yeah, I know muzzle brakes and what not... make them a pricy module commodity.... or dismiss them entirely. Point is, it's a simple and logical solution to elevate pop-tart tactics skill level as well as a simple solution to de-synergize PPC+AC metas...

#26 Hexenhammer

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:34 AM

how to deal with pop tarts.


I'd buy a....
10,000 mc module that auto tracks and doubles x4 damage to poptarts.
5,000 mc module that knocks jump jets out for 60 seconds...


or since ghost heat fixes everything. Tack on ghost heat while shooting.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 09 January 2014 - 07:37 AM.


#27 Noesis

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:38 AM

Interesting idea Varent.

Though the idea could be simplified by reducing shake if you invest in more JJ's for the Mech. Reason being that although shake will overall be apparent for the amount of thrust (more with bigger JJ's) with more being used on the Mech would help to stabalise the Mech better as it distributes the thrust more evenly. Shake would still be apparent but reduced slightly for more investment of JJ's applied for the task. Then you just need to re tune overall shake values to accommodate that change.

#28 3rdworld

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:38 AM

View PostDaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'm completely against any effort to further limit access to any specific playstyle as the last thing I want to do it take away our freedom of choice... I believe all mechs, and all inherent tactics derived from them belong on the battlefield... That said, I'm not opposed to increasing difficulty levels to invigorate soft nerfs to derive balance. :P

Honestly... I think all pop-tarts need (or general game-play for that matter) is Newtons Law of motion. In short, all ballistic weapons should have commensurate amount of recoil. When JJ'ing...In the air, that recoil would cause rotation or flight deviation... on the ground it's would temporarily interrupt the aim-point...

Yeah, I know muzzle brakes and what not... make them a pricy module commodity.... or dismiss them entirely. Point is, it's a simple and logical solution to elevate pop-tart tactics skill level as well as a simple solution to de-synergize PPC+AC metas...


I kind of agree, I don't really want to see it "go away" but, they have never been able to balance poptarting so that it isn't the most dominant form of play.

If poptarting was impossible, you would at least have the choice between vertical mobility vs High mounted arms for hill humping.

#29 DaZur

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:41 AM

View PostHexenhammer, on 09 January 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'd buy a....
10,000 mc module that auto tracks and doubles x4 damage to poptarts.
5,000 mc module that knocks jump jets out for 60 seconds...

or since ghost heat fixes everything. Tack on ghost heat while shooting.

While I realize you're being snarky... You've sparked an idea... :P

While it's not canon... maybe allow PPC to temporarily disrupt JJ like it does ECM?

At least if someone manages to return a shot on a "floater"... It would open a small window where teammates can advance on the the offending mechs location before they recover...

Kind'a devious eh? :rolleyes:

#30 Varent

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:45 AM

View PostNoesis, on 09 January 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Interesting idea Varent.

Though the idea could be simplified by reducing shake if you invest in more JJ's for the Mech. Reason being that although shake will overall be apparent for the amount of thrust (more with bigger JJ's) with more being used on the Mech would help to stabalise the Mech better as it distributes the thrust more evenly. Shake would still be apparent but reduced slightly for more investment of JJ's applied for the task. Then you just need to re tune overall shake values to accommodate that change.


That was the original idea I posted but it was sadly not well recieved. Im offering this up as an exchange. Really at this point I would just love to see some changes to this. There is alot they could do that would create a much better environment at higher elo. Alot of these changes would make neat effects. I also frogot to mention the idea of a dysnc in the recticles on the way down as your mech 'lists' wich was mentioned on other threads. It might be harder to moderate and work against hit detection though. I simply felt this would also be easy to impliment and 'simple' since it appears the more complex changes become the more other things get messed up in the process.

#31 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:49 AM

View PostDaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'm completely against any effort to further limit access to any specific playstyle as the last thing I want to do it take away our freedom of choice... I believe all mechs, and all inherent tactics derived from them belong on the battlefield... That said, I'm not opposed to increasing difficulty levels to invigorate soft nerfs to derive balance. :P

Honestly... I think all pop-tarts need (or general game-play for that matter) is Newtons Law of motion. In short, all ballistic weapons should have commensurate amount of recoil. When JJ'ing...In the air, that recoil would cause rotation or flight deviation... on the ground it's would temporarily interrupt the aim-point...

Yeah, I know muzzle brakes and what not... make them a pricy module commodity.... or dismiss them entirely. Point is, it's a simple and logical solution to elevate pop-tart tactics skill level as well as a simple solution to de-synergize PPC+AC metas...

I know I feel dirty saying to restrict it. It isn't so much that I have a problem with it, I don't. My argument is strictly from a Canon perspective. It just did not happen as much as it does here. Now I can shoot a Pop Tart just fine, but that there are folks finding it be a bad tactic... that's just sad.

Does this make sense? :rolleyes:

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 January 2014 - 07:50 AM.


#32 Varent

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:58 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

I know I feel dirty saying to restrict it. It isn't so much that I have a problem with it, I don't. My argument is strictly from a Canon perspective. It just did not happen as much as it does here. Now I can shoot a Pop Tart just fine, but that there are folks finding it be a bad tactic... that's just sad.

Does this make sense? :P


Its actually a very good tactic. as I said above its just overused. and from a canon perspective I would believe you would like to log in a game at a higher elo and see a mixed match of several different mechs and not just all one type of mech all using the same build and all using jump jets. Right now its making things rather stale. I love canon and the world and would like to see things changed so the game has that feel.

#33 DaZur

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:10 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

I know I feel dirty saying to restrict it. It isn't so much that I have a problem with it, I don't. My argument is strictly from a Canon perspective. It just did not happen as much as it does here. Now I can shoot a Pop Tart just fine, but that there are folks finding it be a bad tactic... that's just sad.

Does this make sense? :rolleyes:

Makes sense and there's nothing wrong with your conclusion because you're basing it on your strong relationship with the TT game.

That said, there's a lot of stuff we do, do... or don't that is contrary to TT and canon. As a real-time action vehicle, it's almost impossible to deter the application of poptarting as a tactic because well... It actually "works". :P

Edited by DaZur, 09 January 2014 - 08:10 AM.


#34 Hexenhammer

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:45 AM

View PostDaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

While I realize you're being snarky... You've sparked an idea... :P

While it's not canon... maybe allow PPC to temporarily disrupt JJ like it does ECM?

At least if someone manages to return a shot on a "floater"... It would open a small window where teammates can advance on the the offending mechs location before they recover...

Kind'a devious eh? :rolleyes:


Annoyance disguised as snark.. I try not to rage on the forums too much (cough cough) but pop tarting is one of those annoying game play quirks that seem cheap and cheezy and out of place when one thinks about it.

Anyways... how big of a problem is it and are there any viable realistic solutions?

Close in poptarting.
Improved vertical pitch. The enemy might be able to jump to avoid your fire, but you can lean back further to shoot him. But this could cause other issues.

Full disclosure . I don't poptart enough to know how easy or hard it is or what mechanics are in place at this time to dissuade people from doing it.

Increased heat while jumping.
Heat does not start dissipating till jump jet fuel is replenished.
Jumpjet fuel doesn't replenish till heat is dissipated.


But all in what is the problem with poptarting? Is it because they aren't playing the game how I want it to be played, or is it something else, like it being the go to tactic that goes against the 'spirit' of the TT game people played..

Edited by Hexenhammer, 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM.


#35 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:49 AM

View PostVarent, on 09 January 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:


Its actually a very good tactic. as I said above its just overused. and from a canon perspective I would believe you would like to log in a game at a higher elo and see a mixed match of several different mechs and not just all one type of mech all using the same build and all using jump jets. Right now its making things rather stale. I love canon and the world and would like to see things changed so the game has that feel.
this would depend on which house I would be facing. I prefer a game where I would see Kurita built Mechs in a DCMS drop vs a Heavy Jager force for Davions. But that's just the FanPro Commando in me talking!

#36 Mister Blastman

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 09 January 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Ok, its nice that you are looking for a way to fix something (although there are hardly any Jumpsniers around nowadays (you hardly see more than 1 or 2 in any given game as opposed to earlier where you would see 1 or 2 mechs per game which werent Jumpsnipers).


Speak for yourself. I usually see 8 on a team these days in my Elo bracket, every damn game. Things change at the top.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM.


#37 3rdworld

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:53 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:


Speak for yourself. I usually see 8 on a team these days in my Elo bracket, every damn game. Things change at the top.


In a comp match 12/12 have JJs.

#38 Varent

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:


Speak for yourself. I usually see 8 on a team these days in my Elo bracket, every damn game. Things change at the top.


typical pug at high elo
4+ jump snipers
8+ with jump jets in general

typical 12 man at high elo
7-8+ jump snipers
Pretty much everyone has Jump jets. (you might see a kintaro running inteference or a Cent. Usually gonna be a S-Hawk these days though)

Edited by Varent, 09 January 2014 - 08:55 AM.


#39 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:55 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:


In a comp match 12/12 have JJs.

I need to get into some 12 man drops so I can ruin your stats! If you don't like seeing so many pop tarts why do you bring em???

#40 Varent

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:57 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

I need to get into some 12 man drops so I can ruin your stats! If you don't like seeing so many pop tarts why do you bring em???


Because current jump jet mechanics make them the most logical choice for high end competitive matches. Its what makes tactical sense.





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