129 replies to this topic

[Bagheera]

I oppose any JJ nerf that makes it so that lights cannot fire while jumping, and my current lightest mech is a CDA-2A with no JJs.

[Varent]

Bagheera, on 09 January 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

I oppose any JJ nerf that makes it so that lights cannot fire while jumping, and my current lightest mech is a CDA-2A with no JJs.

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Jump sniping is currently the most prominent meta and the major source of lack of diversity in organized 12 man drops. That is not to say there isnt alot of diversity in pugs, even at higher ELO. But once you get into organized 12 mans they are very very recurrent. I personally see this as a major issue since it effects not only the diversity of the game but also the general feel and may lead many to believe they cannot be competitive unless they use those builds.

There are more then a few ways this can be dubbed down abit without overall effecting peoples ability to jump snipe.

Currently any class CAN in fact jump snipe but some weights simply tend to be better at it. Generally Heavy and Assault mechs and some medium mechs. Light mechs can jump snipe as well but its alot larger of an investment for them and they tend to be better with erlarge lasers or as close in disruptors and scouts. Because of this I propose a change to the way jump jets are implimented in mwo as well as an overall change to how jump jets change jumping in general.

Currently 1 jump jet costs very little overall weight and provides an immense amount of mobility for a mech. This needs to be changed and although it isnt perfectly canon im hoping people can step away from that for abit to hear me out.

I feel the weight on jump jets for medium, heavies and assault mechs should be increased by at least one ton. In addition the amount of spade jump jets use up should be doubled as well so they take up 2 slots and not one.

I also feel the jump mechanism should be changed. Currently your {LT-MOB-25} pit shakes quite abit on the way up but does not shake at all on the way down. Also the targeting recticle stays perfectly together on the way down as well without much disorientation. These two things can easily be changed and make quite abit of a change to the system. In addition throwing a 90 ton machine up into the air and then letting it land unguided down heavily onto the ground with very little damage to its legs is a little.... off.... here are just a few of the ways all of these changes can be implimented. (keep in mind im not suggesting them all but rather just offering a few thoughts that have already been suggested on multiple forums in a concise fashion.

First off you can make it so the cockpit continues to shake even on the way down unless the mech has a number of jump jets equiped. My personal thought is add in another jump jet needed per class for the ability to actually jump snipe. As I said before light mechs are already rare to see as jump snipers so I dont see a reason for them to need more, however create a system in wich medium mechs need at least 2, heavy mechs need 3 and assault mechs need 4. Keep in mind again this would only be for the degree the screen shakes on the way down. If you just want the mobility of a jump jet you can continue to use it just for that as you dart about the battle field. But if you want your recticle to stay still on the down drop you need your jump jets to allow you to have a nice easy decent.

Just to show you this would not utterly destroy jump sniping I want to show an example

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e6563d1da54202

This mech has 4 tons extra free that it could use to accept the additional weight. It also has slots free to accept the additional size of the jump jets. What this does however is limit the engine size and make it so you have to specialize into this position. It creates a special niche for jump sniping and makes a player really have to work to build around it. This further allows other mech designs to shine in additional ways since they have more weight available to use to perhaps try to counter with.

These changes would not effect mechs at all who are currently using jump jets simply for mobility with the exception of a minor extra ton and extra slot wich most can easily fit in with a little tweaking. It also would not inadvertently effect light mechs at all.

I hope these thoughts will be recieved well.

Would not effect a light mech.

[Bagheera]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Would not effect a light mech.

It's an interesting direction, but we can't change crit size or weight on anything really. Incentive to install multiple jets is good, but my point - to be more specific:

I don't want to lose the ability to brawl with jets (frankly, in any mech, but it would nerf lights the worst) simply because of snipers.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bagheera, on 09 January 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

I oppose any JJ nerf that makes it so that lights cannot fire while jumping, and my current lightest mech is a CDA-2A with no JJs.

There's no crying in war games!

[Varent]

Bagheera, on 09 January 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

It's an interesting direction, but we can't change crit size or weight on anything really. Incentive to install multiple jets is good, but my point - to be more specific:

I don't want to lose the ability to brawl with jets (frankly, in any mech, but it would nerf lights the worst) simply because of snipers.

1) we cant change crit size or weight.... why?

2) screen shake only effects precision weapons. You would still be able to brawl quite well while jumping as long as your in close but your shots would be spread abit. It would however heavily effect longer range shots and throw them off.

[Bagheera]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

1) we cant change crit size or weight.... why?

Because it breaks every single stock mech with said piece of equipment. Forumites go over this from time to time. Keeping item weight and crit space the same is basically the "path of least resistance." I'm not saying it's not possible, just that PGI isn't going to do it because of the massive can of worms involved. If they increase the weight or crit space of an item, then they have to either decrease the weight and space of something else, change available weight or space on the mech, or completely redesign how mechs are constructed. First and second options are dead ends, and the third requires too many resources for them to handle. So we are stuck with weight and crit size being sacrosanct.

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

2) screen shake only effects precision weapons. You would still be able to brawl quite well while jumping as long as your in close but your shots would be spread abit. It would however heavily effect longer range shots and throw them off.

With a little tuning, I imagine this happy middle could be found.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

There's no crying in war games!

What, are you new here? All there is is crying in this game. "Only 0.0001% of mech pilots could fire while jumping!" Sound familiar?

We all ***** and moan over our opinions; that's really all this forum is good for since we are the only people listening anyway.

Edited by Bagheera, 09 January 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[3rdworld]

Bagheera, on 09 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Because it breaks every single stock mech with said piece of equipment.

Isn't it exactly how they said they are going to balance the Clans?

Good for the Goose is good for the gander.

[Bagheera]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Isn't it exactly how they said they are going to balance the Clans?

Good for the Goose is good for the gander.

Yes, and the clanners seem oh, so excited about it.

They can say that's their plan all they want, but watch: they'll only tweak the stats they've been tweaking all along: Range, heat, RoF, etc. PGI just doesn't have the resources to properly create a whole new set of mech design rules so they will once more take the path of least resistance.

Edited by Bagheera, 09 January 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[Varent]

Bagheera, on 09 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Because it breaks every single stock mech with said piece of equipment. Forumites go over this from time to time. Keeping item weight and crit space the same is basically the "path of least resistance." I'm not saying it's not possible, just that PGI isn't going to do it because of the massive can of worms involved. If they increase the weight or crit space of an item, then they have to either decrease the weight and space of something else, change available weight or space on the mech, or completely redesign how mechs are constructed. First and second options are dead ends, and the third requires too many resources for them to handle. So we are stuck with weight and crit size being sacrosanct.

decent... point...

Second idea.

basic Jump jets cause screen shake on the way up and way down.

(Upgrade to Jump Jets) Jump jetsv2 - (as further stated above changes with weight crit slots etc)

Discuss?

Edited by Varent, 09 January 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Gorgo7]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Jump sniping is currently the most prominent meta and the major source of lack of diversity in organized 12 man drops. That is not to say there isnt alot of diversity in pugs, even at higher ELO. But once you get into organized 12 mans they are very very recurrent. I personally see this as a major issue since it effects not only the diversity of the game but also the general feel and may lead many to believe they cannot be competitive unless they use those builds.

There are more then a few ways this can be dubbed down abit without overall effecting peoples ability to jump snipe.

Currently any class CAN in fact jump snipe but some weights simply tend to be better at it. Generally Heavy and Assault mechs and some medium mechs. Light mechs can jump snipe as well but its alot larger of an investment for them and they tend to be better with erlarge lasers or as close in disruptors and scouts. Because of this I propose a change to the way jump jets are implimented in mwo as well as an overall change to how jump jets change jumping in general.

Currently 1 jump jet costs very little overall weight and provides an immense amount of mobility for a mech. This needs to be changed and although it isnt perfectly canon im hoping people can step away from that for abit to hear me out.

I feel the weight on jump jets for medium, heavies and assault mechs should be increased by at least one ton. In addition the amount of spade jump jets use up should be doubled as well so they take up 2 slots and not one.

I also feel the jump mechanism should be changed. Currently your {LT-MOB-25} pit shakes quite abit on the way up but does not shake at all on the way down. Also the targeting recticle stays perfectly together on the way down as well without much disorientation. These two things can easily be changed and make quite abit of a change to the system. In addition throwing a 90 ton machine up into the air and then letting it land unguided down heavily onto the ground with very little damage to its legs is a little.... off.... here are just a few of the ways all of these changes can be implimented. (keep in mind im not suggesting them all but rather just offering a few thoughts that have already been suggested on multiple forums in a concise fashion.

First off you can make it so the cockpit continues to shake even on the way down unless the mech has a number of jump jets equiped. My personal thought is add in another jump jet needed per class for the ability to actually jump snipe. As I said before light mechs are already rare to see as jump snipers so I dont see a reason for them to need more, however create a system in wich medium mechs need at least 2, heavy mechs need 3 and assault mechs need 4. Keep in mind again this would only be for the degree the screen shakes on the way down. If you just want the mobility of a jump jet you can continue to use it just for that as you dart about the battle field. But if you want your recticle to stay still on the down drop you need your jump jets to allow you to have a nice easy decent.

Just to show you this would not utterly destroy jump sniping I want to show an example

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e6563d1da54202

This mech has 4 tons extra free that it could use to accept the additional weight. It also has slots free to accept the additional size of the jump jets. What this does however is limit the engine size and make it so you have to specialize into this position. It creates a special niche for jump sniping and makes a player really have to work to build around it. This further allows other mech designs to shine in additional ways since they have more weight available to use to perhaps try to counter with.

These changes would not effect mechs at all who are currently using jump jets simply for mobility with the exception of a minor extra ton and extra slot wich most can easily fit in with a little tweaking. It also would not inadvertently effect light mechs at all.

I hope these thoughts will be recieved well.

These thoughts are not well received by me at all! I pilot a few machines with jump jets and am in no way a pop-tart. Your attempt to compensate for your weakness by penalizing myself and others is ludicrous. This argument was had 8-10 months ago and has been resolved by PGI.

Your first blanket statement is just that...words. And words are wind.

No team I'm aware of is complaining about the "Jumping Meta of doom" and scrambling to counter it.

Indeed, the current jumping meta works fine and is logical. On the way up (thrusters at max) lots of shake, direct fire weapons often miss at close range. On the way down (no thrusters at all, none, just gravity) zero shake. As a skill set it is impressive to be able to walk your cross hairs over an opponent and hit him at 500 meters from the air. Try it sometime.

Frankly, pop tarts are more annoying that anything. Dangerous players manoeuvre, pop tarts get killed by players that manoeuvre. End of story.

[Varent]

Gorgo7, on 09 January 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

These thoughts are not well received by me at all! I pilot a few machines with jump jets and am in no way a pop-tart. Your attempt to compensate for your weakness by penalizing myself and others is ludicrous. This argument was had 8-10 months ago and has been resolved by PGI.

Your first blanket statement is just that...words. And words are wind.

No team I'm aware of is complaining about the "Jumping Meta of doom" and scrambling to counter it.

Indeed, the current jumping meta works fine and is logical. On the way up (thrusters at max) lots of shake, direct fire weapons often miss at close range. On the way down (no thrusters at all, none, just gravity) zero shake. As a skill set it is impressive to be able to walk your cross hairs over an opponent and hit him at 500 meters from the air. Try it sometime.

Frankly, pop tarts are more annoying that anything. Dangerous players manoeuvre, pop tarts get killed by players that manoeuvre. End of story.

I have done it, In fact I have close to a 2.0 win ratio in my dragonslayer and 300ish games doing just that.

In this statement are you saying that jump sniping is not an utterly dominant meta in high elo that is used constantly?

Are you also saying that it is easily countered? (because its not)

Most high elo teams dont complain because they like jump sniping, are good at it and continue on business as usual. That does not mean there is no change needed.

[Bhael Fire]

The last time I saw somebody try to pop tart, they got cored in mid air and rag-dolled onto the ground. It was funny as hell.

Pop tarting is a noob tactic in most PUG games...and a bad, isolated habit that occurs in the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

[Varent]

Bhael Fire, on 09 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

The last time I saw somebody try to pop tart, they got cored in mid air and rag-dolled onto the ground. It was funny as hell.

Pop tarting is a noob tactic in most PUG games...and a bad, isolated habit that occurs in the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

actually its the most prevalent meta in high elo 12 mans.

[DaZur]

Bhael Fire, on 09 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Pop tarting is a noob tactic in most PUG games...and a bad, isolated habit that occurs in the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

There's a big difference between a top-tier poptart specialist and a PUG player mimicking the mechanics of it...

[MustrumRidcully]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

That is a lie. But keep trying.

I believe there was definitely not much of it... The Highlander didn't exist back then, ballistics had severe hit detection issues, so the Cataphract didn't work so well, either.

[Bhael Fire]

DaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

There's a big difference between a top-tier poptart specialist and a PUG player mimicking the mechanics of it...

Absolutely. That's why I said the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

It's not an issue in most PUG games.

[Varent]

Bhael Fire, on 09 January 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Absolutely. That's why I said the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

It's not an issue in most PUG games.

Just because you dont see the issue often, does not mean its not an issue. And it will only become more prevalent as players improve in skill. Its not as much of a microcosm as you think. As you go up in elo you will commonly see at least 4 of them in pug matches. 4 jump snipers sync dropped can be DEVASTATING in a pug environment.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

There's a big difference between a top-tier poptart specialist and a PUG player mimicking the mechanics of it...

One causes you to duck and weave the other gets you to yell "PULL"!

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

One causes you to duck and weave the other gets you to yell "PULL"!

"Coffee out the nose"... But it was worth it.

... Now about my keyboard.

[Rushin Roulette]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Things change at the top.

Quotes like this make me grin too much. Posters stroking their imagined E-Peen... especially if they are deluding themselves about what ELO is and how they imagine that they are in the "top tier".

Well, let me enlighten you. There is no top middle or bottom tier Elo. The playerbase of MWO is just too small for that to even be possible. The only thing the personal ELO rating can do is to try to balance the Elo scores on both sides of a match so that it has aproximately the same average team Elo on each team. No more no less.

If you see loads of any particular meta, then it is not becasue of the Elo or the matchmaker pressing you into a particular segment of the playerbase, but because that is simply what most players gravitate towards using in your timezone.

The meta in Europe is currently mostly Balistics on Jagermechs, Victors, 2D2 streakers as light hunters and the odd 2*AC5/2*PPC Jumpsniper... but they are slowly dwindling as players are focusing on shooting off the weapon side as a priority whicih leaves the team crippled because they have an Assault mech with 0 damage output clogging up their maneuvering.

P. S. I have absolutely no problem with beleiving myself and my unit to be good at this game in PUG or 12v12 matches.... but I dont delude myself that this would change anything about who I play with or against. i have my share of good players and newbs on my team or against me in matches to be able to see the skill spectrum in a given match.