129 replies to this topic

[kesuga7]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Also a good idea. But it wouldnt solve all the problems since many chasis just relay on 2 ppc in the torso. *see above*

Yup but that would be limiting most 'pinpoint alpha's to 20-25 ish - MIDAIR (Dual Gauss is its own thing)
Unless you want to fire 3 ppc's and get ghost heat or three AC 5's

@well this is for the Pinpoint midair shots , they would still damage em just not the whole
'easy - one click - all damage - left torso' kind of poptarting

It will also discourage Close range poptarting because poptarting would be much more optimal in lighter tonned mechs which also carry less armor as opposed to Highlanders

You would have to be close-mid range to shoot both weapons and make both pcc/ballistic hit said mech even if semi-innaccurate

and of course it's only going to happpen mid air dysnch that would be lame if it weren't

Edited by kesuga7, 09 January 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Varent]

kesuga7, on 09 January 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yup but that would be limiting most 'pinpoint alpha's to 20-25 ish - MIDAIR (Dual Gauss is its own thing)
Unless you want to fire 3 ppc's and get ghost heat or three AC 5's

thats still just a bandaid and most groups would adjust, keep in mind you still will be getting damage over a mechs torso generally or arms, you just might not hit perfectly in that right torso with everything. It wont solve the problem. It also will hurt brawlers who fight jump jet mechs unless you make it a dysnc that only occurs during jumping.

[divernb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yes and no

SRM are fine, just need hit detection fixed.

Hit detection fix is definitely needed, but it's hard to say if that's all they need since we don't know if they're actually working a good 50% of the time.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

A big issue is simply how heat is handled with JJ's

They only generate heat up to a negligible number on Jump Sniping mechs, like 12%. They should ALWAYS generate heat! Lots of it, and even more so when firing weapons, maybe. (But ghost heat does need to die...)

JJ's need a much slower recharge rate, based on number of JJ's. A single JJ recharges too fast for what it does. Likewise, jump height needs to become exponential based on number of jets. 1-2 JJ's should be trash, only useful for JJ turning and minimal jump height -- like hovering. 3-6 JJ should be the standard.


Then comes problems with pinpoint alphas and convergence stacked with a nightmarishly sh!tty heat scale with ZERO heat penalties, unusable SHS and all sorts of other nonsense... many {Scrap} systems need complete replacement / total rehauls before Jump Sniping is adjusted properly.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

mwhighlander, on 09 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

A big issue is simply how heat is handled with JJ's

They only generate heat up to a negligible number on Jump Sniping mechs, like 12%. They should ALWAYS generate heat! Lots of it, and even more so when firing weapons, maybe. (But ghost heat does need to die...)

JJ's need a much slower recharge rate, based on number of JJ's. A single JJ recharges too fast for what it does. Likewise, jump height needs to become exponential based on number of jets. 1-2 JJ's should be trash, only useful for JJ turning and minimal jump height -- like hovering. 3-6 JJ should be the standard.


Then comes problems with pinpoint alphas and convergence stacked with a nightmarishly sh!tty heat scale with ZERO heat penalties, unusable SHS and all sorts of other nonsense... many {Scrap} systems need complete replacement / total rehauls before Jump Sniping is adjusted properly.

I like this idea, however a heat increase will really only impact evasion brawlers like jenners. I think you typical jump sniper is less concerned about heat because they can afford to safely cooldown between jumps.

The jump effectiveness and recharge rate will definitely help, and I would even take a step further and make jumpjets a chassis upgrade like Endo or Artemis. Which means you buy the upgrade it adds a predetermined (read: maximum) number of jump jets and assigns them to predetermined critical locations (jump jet slots, much like ECM). I feel this will add a little drawback to the tremendous advantage jump jets provide.

[Curccu]

Drake Grayson, on 09 January 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Okay i don´t know if this was post before, but an easy way to fix jump sniping is to let the cockpitshake last the whole time you are flying. I now also this would nerf lights who are fire their weapons on a fly by, but they weren´t supposed to attack bigger targets in the beginning.

I want to hear oppinions of the toppic.

And sorry for any grammar mistakes.

Sorry! My jump sniping works just fine, no need to fix it.

[Mister Blastman]

Forcing players to use 4+ JJs would definitely be moderately game-changing. Far too many get a free ride with one or two and using them to snipe. It would be a beginning to the solution but as Highlander points out, only a start.

[Joseph Mallan]

Curccu, on 09 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Sorry! My jump sniping works just fine, no need to fix it.

This just oximoronic! Jumping and Sniping should be a synonymous as Military Intelligence or Happily Married!

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Forcing players to use 4+ JJs would definitely be moderately game-changing. Far too many get a free ride with one or two and using them to snipe. It would be a beginning to the solution but as Highlander points out, only a start.

I'm a little OCD so I'm psychologically forced to run all my JJs.

I'm trembling as we speak waiting for my Phract to visually reflect its actual loadout...

Edited by DaZur, 09 January 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I saw ZERO pop tarting in Closed Beta and I played 4-6 hours a night and 10+ on weekends. Pop Tarting didn't become POPular till Open Beta

That is a lie. But keep trying.

Pop-tarting wasn't a thing until well into OB, because it simply wasn't viable. Until they changed JJs to give quicker thrust, the slow rising into view was a liability. Also, until HSR, the difficulty calculating where you needed to shoot to hit a moving target made it extremely unreliable to attempt while jumping. Shooting while jumping happened, but was mostly limited to guided missiles or brawling ranges.

[3rdworld]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Pop-tarting wasn't a thing until well into OB, because it simply wasn't viable. Until they changed JJs to give quicker thrust, the slow rising into view was a liability. Also, until HSR, the difficulty calculating where you needed to shoot to hit a moving target made it extremely unreliable to attempt while jumping. Shooting while jumping happened, but was mostly limited to guided missiles or brawling ranges.

I have already recanted that it wasn't in CB. But as soon as the Cataphract was released Poptarting was right behind it. So it would have been after November 2012. But I remember playing a poptart in Season 1 of RHoD, which was in January 2013 . So it really started somewhere between November 12 & January 13.

So it has been the most dominant style for around a year give or take.

Edited by 3rdworld, 09 January 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Blixx]

I am so tired of seeing 12man with 8 poptart 733c 2PPC,2xUAC5. 2 poptart SHD 2xAC5, PPC and 2 ravens 2xERLL scouts. Mods Advanced Zoom, Arti & Air Strike.
PGI made changes to poptarts but it was not enough. Personally I hate the screen shake and would like to see it leave the game. I don’t know why the horizon moves when my mech jumps. How about losing weapon convergence and have the guns move off target just slightly. This would allow firing on close in targets while jumping but make it almost impossible to snipe at extreme range.

Edited by Blixx, 09 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Mechteric]

Blixx, on 09 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

How about losing weapon convergence and have the guns move off target just slightly. This would allow firing on close in targets while jumping but make it almost impossible to snipe at extreme range.

I think you're only assessing the symptom and not the possible cause of why the meta is back to sniping. IMO its because the brawler meta is not where it should be, mostly due to SRMs being much less effective, both in terms of damage and spread, than they should be. I promise you that if brawlers had the upper hand over snipers, assuming they can overcome the distance that separates smartly, then you'll see a shift. Until that happens, there's no point in eliminating long range combat just because you don't like it.

[Jaguar Prime]

Since PGI is currently reversing things back to the way they were during Closed Beta, Why not revert Jumpjets to having the takeoff delay again.

[Trauglodyte]

Bhael Fire, on 09 January 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Absolutely. That's why I said the microcosm of the 12-man scene.

It's not an issue in most PUG games.

In every PUG game that I play, I see at least 6 poptarters on the opposing side. Now, it could easily be said that the bulk of the new mechs in the game are JJ capable (of 125 variants, 43 have JJs or 34.4% of all available). That means that you end up with a lot of people using their JJs and a lot of people following the meta by means of thinking that they can be top tier too if they do it. But, it also means that the higher you go the more people are using singular builds, mechs, and mechanics to achieve the goal at a more efficient means. Now, I'm not a super high end player but I'm much better than the average and I've played with and against all of the big boys. When you see the top tier player roll, unless they're just dorking around, which isn't often, they're all in JJ capable mechs and are all pop tarting. Some will ridge hump in Stalkers and others will run the Raven ECM-Lrg Laser Coward but most are in Jenners (heaviest of the Lights and only one of two that have JJs), the Shawk (heaviest of the Mediums and the only one currently available to everyone; has JJs), the Phract 3D (heaviest JJ capable of the Heavies), the Victor (lightest of the two JJ capable Assaults), or the Highlander (heaviest of the JJ capable Assaults). What is the underlying theme? JJs combined with Energy+ACs.

[OneEyed Jack]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I have already recanted that it wasn't in CB. But as soon as the Cataphract was released Poptarting was right behind it. So it would have been after November 2012. But I remember playing a poptart in Season 1 of RHoD, which was in January 2013 . So it really started somewhere between November 12 & January 13.

So it has been the most dominant style for around a year give or take.

Having a mech with JJs and guns is not the same as pop-tarting being a "dominant style" or even a specific tactic. Like I said, people shot while jumping, but it wasn't reliable enough to be a significant tactic until HSR.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Which makes no sense to me. If you are those top 20 or so, and you find X weapons to be "Unfair" why don't the just stop using those build? We all know Nukes are the biggest bang in an arsenal. We don't use 'em cause they are just to dam powerful. How come a bunch of war mongering generals can agree to hold back from using their Easy button but a bunch a beer swilling gamer nerds can't?

Because then they wouldn't be the top. The one thing that I've always enjoyed about you, Joe, is that you say that you are a competitive person even though you don't normally run the top tier builds. You run what you enjoy and try your hardest to be great with it. The top tier people, though, boil everyhting down to what is the absolute best and discard the rest. The very idea of running a suboptimal mech and/or a suboptimal build is blasphemous. A few months ago, back when DV8 was trolling the boards a lot, I put out the challenge to take the worst mech in their favorite mech's weight class, use a less than optimal build, and video or keep a log of their games. Great players will do well with great tools but competitors want to be the best with everything. To this date, I've yet to see any reply from that challenge. Though, I suspect that I was cast aside due to my surf status amongst the lords.

[EGG]

You could increase JJ recharge time for heavy\assault mechs. Eg 1-2 extra seconds to get to full charge (maybe more, would need tweaking). The ability to push out as much DPS per game via pure poptarting goes down. So brawlers get more time to close or pop tarts have to use slightly less protective terrain if they want to keep damage rates up.

That also means;
- lights are unaffected
- JJ for hillclimbing \ manoeuvring is largely unaffected (apart from really big hills)
- poptarting shots is still valid as a tactic, but less so as a strategy

[Veranova]

Poptarting is a valid tactic, it doesn't need to be fixed. However a VARIETY of tactics need to be encouraged, and that's exactly what PGI has done with their current cockpit shake system. It takes more skill to Poptart now, which makes a number of other skillfull activities more useful.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

hell just take out jj then you dont have to worry about poptarting.hell take out guass then you dont have to worry about it either hell lets take everything out but med laser and ac/20 that way we can make sure no one poptarts at all ever again .


better yet lets get blacknights and novacats load them up with er ppcs again and sit there in 2 hr long matchs with ppl just bring there heads up to see if anyone else is jumping to get that one shoot off aver 15 mins.
make sure the map is lunacy also

oh yea FEAR THE KORE