25 replies to this topic

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Hello everyone. I am a veteran of the old Battletech tabletop game, so I am pretty familiar with the rules of the game and mech building. When I started playing MWO though, I noticed no implementation (or at least very little) of melee combat. I tend to favor extremely close-quarters engagement, but without being able to do kicks/DFA/vibroblade I am at a bit of a loss for how I should design my mech. Currently this is what I have come up with: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fd3d44dde1f7ccc

So I had a couple of questions. Do you think upper 70's low 80's km/h will be fast enough to outrun most assaults/heavies? Is 8000 machine gun ammo too much/not enough? What about the AMS? Do people spam a lot of LRM's in this game?

So far, I've had some decent runs with this mech. It deals massive damage at close-range and I get good results, all things considered. But I know there is always room for improvement, and I was wondering what others thought who have more familiarity of the MWO metagame.

[Modo44]

MGs are usually backup weapons, for locations with stripped armor. They do limited damage vs armor. You want a ton of ammo per 2 MGs, but can do with less.

Your build has very little range for MWO. I would recommend sticking with the XL260 engine and the dual UAC5 you got stock -- that will enable you to get decent long-range damage and better armor opening capability. 2xUAC5+2xLL+4xMG is a pretty solid mech.

Edited by Modo44, 08 January 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Viken]

If you want to use "melt off armor" and then follow up with "destroy the components with machine guns" Here's the build that a friend of mine uses. Basically the same thing, but with Large Pulse Lasers, slightly smaller engine, and no AMS.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...377b418a72f9f8e

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Modo44, on 08 January 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

MGs are usually backup weapons, for locations with stripped armor. They do limited damage vs armor. You want a ton of ammo per 2 MGs, but can do with less.

Your build has very little range for MWO. I would recommend sticking with the XL260 engine and the dual UAC5 you got stock -- that will enable you to get decent long-range damage and better armor opening capability. 2xUAC5+2xLL+4xMG is a pretty solid mech.

Trust me, I know the limited range is a serious drawback in this game, most likely due to the fact that minimum range has been taken off of most weapons compared to the tabletop. I can sit back and blast with autocannons/PPC's (I have a couple of builds already in the works) but as long as I am playing in a team and coordinating my attacks, my allies will be stripping armor. I avoid most direct confrontation and focus on wounded mechs. I don't think calling a machine gun volley a "secondary weapon" is very fair, either. While they lack raw firepower, they make up for it in the fact that they generate zero heat and provide highly sustainable DPS. But regardless, I appreciate the thoughts and thanks for the reply.

[Lucky Noob]

you as well might try this one

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...567532ec6b56f76

an real Critseeker and awesome with his LBX for puuting enemies back into cover so you can move forward.

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Viken, on 08 January 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

If you want to use "melt off armor" and then follow up with "destroy the components with machine guns" Here's the build that a friend of mine uses. Basically the same thing, but with Large Pulse Lasers, slightly smaller engine, and no AMS.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...377b418a72f9f8e

I like it a lot. Definitely going to take it for a spin and see how it fares, Thanks!

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Braddack, on 08 January 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

you as well might try this one

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...567532ec6b56f76

an real Critseeker and awesome with his LBX for puuting enemies back into cover so you can move forward.

Hey i like this one too, especially the weapon loadout. It's just a bit slower than what I'm used to piloting, but might be also worth checking out. Thanks.

[luigi256]

If you want to be in a Jaggermech that is short range lots of people like the ac40 jag. It is considered a cheese build though by most not that that is a bad thing if you really like being up close and giving a hard hit. You may want to consider building one and seeing how it works. Never piloting one and going to smurfy to build one with a standard engine is not easy though so it looks almost necessary to have an xl engine in it (which most ac40 jag's do).

Here is one with an xl 260 engine just as a sample of what they are like.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...563602aa3183055

I by no means am an expert at all at them I prefer using lights and mediums just an idea of what you may want to try.

[Modo44]

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

I don't think calling a machine gun volley a "secondary weapon" is very fair, either. While they lack raw firepower, they make up for it in the fact that they generate zero heat and provide highly sustainable DPS.

You have an interesting build, which I bet is lots of fun, but it will get eaten alive as you move up the ladder. You will often not get close enough before getting sniped to death. You will also not be able to shield properly, because you are forced to constantly look at the target. People have tried 2xERPPC+6xMG, and even that showed to be pretty weak -- despite good range.

Edited by Modo44, 08 January 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Modo44, on 08 January 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

You have an interesting build, which I bet is lots of fun, but it will get eaten alive as you move up the ladder. You will often not get close enough before getting sniped to death. You will also not be able to shield properly, because you are forced to constantly look at the target. People have tried 2xERPPC+6xMG, and even that showed to be pretty weak -- despite good range.

Time will tell. As I said, in the tabletop version of this long-ranged weapons have a severe accuracy penalty when firing below minimum range. Combined with no melee weapons, this game really does seem to favor pop-tarting behind cliffs and sniping. Excuse me for thinking outside of the box...

[Modo44]

Dude. You asked for advice. Excuse me for sharing some experience specific to MWO.

[Lucky Noob]

Poptarts ? easy hit with an nice LBX or blind Fired LRMs, always funny if they go "wtf" if they got hit by Lurms without warning

But true, some Kind of weapon with more then 180 Metrs Range makes Life more easy.

[Victor Morson]

Machine Guns are really bad. Really, really bad. Some people get high damage numbers, but it requires you are utterly ignored and can just pour fire on. I'd avoid them entirely.

Really with the Jag, your best advantage is high mounted guns. This means your three best weapon loadouts are going to be:

2x AC/20 [ Watch out for Ghost Heat - it's a hidden system in MW:O that punishes you for going over certain number of weapons, and firing them too fast. 2x AC/20 fills this, but if you stagger the shot, it's powerful. ] this is likely what you'd want to run with your infighting style.

2x Gauss - You have to get used to the recycle timer, which not everyone likes, but it's extremely good at any range and can ridge, but again, this is more a sniper setup.

3x UAC/5 or 3x AC/5 - While not as adept at running this as the Cataphract Ilya or 4X, you can still fit this setup on a Jagermech and go to town at any range. I'd recommend this one in light of the recent AC/20 nerf, and due to the lack of Ghost Heat concerns. You can't quite fit an effectively sized Standard engine on a Jag running this setup, again, unlike the Ilya - so you must go XL. This option also is full of "fast firing dakka" like the MG one, but actually does tons of damage.

XL Ultra

EDIT: Downgrade the UACs to regular AC/5s if you want to pack a couple extra medium lasers.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 January 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

I don't think calling a machine gun volley a "secondary weapon" is very fair, either. While they lack raw firepower, they make up for it in the fact that they generate zero heat and provide highly sustainable DPS. But regardless, I appreciate the thoughts and thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately right now they aren't even a third tier weapon. On TT, they are actually very damaging because you can mass a BUNCH of them off just a ton of ammo, and they have a bed reputation primarily because 'mechs only carry 2 with a full ton of exploding ammunition to run off it. If you've ever toyed with those 12 MG light 'mechs, they're horrifying.

In MW:O however, there's a few more reasons the MG is terrible:

• Sustainable damage is kind of a bad thing. You want to fire a burst of damage, and then evade. MGs require you keep your front (and thus your vital parts) facing the enemy constantly to get much damage out of.
  
• No half tons of ammo.
  
• Machine Guns take ballistic hardpoints, which are very very valuable. MGs might be useful if you could slap a dozen on any 'mech you like, but it maxes out with 6 on that Jag you selected (and a Spider with 5 I think it is.)
  
• Machine Guns are the one weapon to fire in a "cone" so the damage isn't even pinpoint!
  
• Machine Guns offer an enhanced crit chance.. but just barely. It's not enough to matter.

Long story short to get ANYTHING out of MGs you have to stare at them holding down the trigger, keeping your guns on a specific 'mech part. While you are doing this, 6 guys on the other side will hit you with PPCs & ACs square in your weak spot because you're a super easy target when doing this.


That is why MGs are bad, bad guns.

PS: With Ultras or regular ACs, the temptation to do the same as above is there, but try to avoid it. In particular with Ultras, it's best to pop out / line up the enemy, fire a 1-3 second burst until a couple guns jam, and then go evading like crazy again while they unjam / recover so they won't jam. Regular AC/5s can generally get two shots off during a jump or quick peak, too.

Thus why the AC/5 is much more recommended than the AC/2, as it suffers from the MG style "need to stay on target to get effective damage" weakness.

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Time will tell. As I said, in the tabletop version of this long-ranged weapons have a severe accuracy penalty when firing below minimum range. Combined with no melee weapons, this game really does seem to favor pop-tarting behind cliffs and sniping. Excuse me for thinking outside of the box...

There are acceptable brawling weapons. SRMs are out of favor now because they don't hit faster 'mechs very well, for example, but that's a solid infighting gun that I might call secondary firepower in general. I'd take SRMs over MGs any day of the week, no question.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 January 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Time will tell. As I said, in the tabletop version of this long-ranged weapons have a severe accuracy penalty when firing below minimum range. Combined with no melee weapons, this game really does seem to favor pop-tarting behind cliffs and sniping. Excuse me for thinking outside of the box...

PPCs have a hard minimum range here, as do LRMs. The others do not.

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Victor Morson, on 08 January 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

2x AC/20 [ Watch out for Ghost Heat - it's a hidden system in MW:O that punishes you for going over certain number of weapons, and firing them too fast. 2x AC/20 fills this, but if you stagger the shot, it's powerful. ] this is likely what you'd want to run with your infighting style.

Hey, fair enough. If the game parameters dictate that X meters away is considered "close combat," then that's how I will play. Thanks for this.

[Victor Morson]

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Hey, fair enough. If the game parameters dictate that X meters away is considered "close combat," then that's how I will play. Thanks for this.

Just make sure to put a half second between AC/20 shots (I recommend binding one button to left arm, one to right, that way you can fire around corners without wasting AC/20 ammo - i.e. if you step around a building on the right corner, fire your right arm. Gun placement is really important in MW:O, and fortunately the Jagermech's greatest strength is really good gun mounts.

If you fire both within the same half second period you'll see a huge heat surge. Smurfy's has a nice chart of all the linked weapons, but 2x AC/20 is the most severe. Despite this, if you can control your fire, it's among the most powerful brawling builds in the game.

Also keep in mind (despite the velocity nerf) AC/20s hit for half damage up to double their listed range, so you aren't entirely defenseless at medium range - popping someone standing there at 500m with 2x AC/20 is like hitting them with a single AC/20 up close, and it's definitely going to hurt.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 January 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Johann Abraham Revil]

Victor Morson, on 08 January 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Unfortunately right now they aren't even a third tier weapon. On TT, they are actually very damaging because you can mass a BUNCH of them off just a ton of ammo, and they have a bed reputation primarily because 'mechs only carry 2 with a full ton of exploding ammunition to run off it. If you've ever toyed with those 12 MG light 'mechs, they're horrifying.

In MW:O however, there's a few more reasons the MG is terrible:

• Sustainable damage is kind of a bad thing. You want to fire a burst of damage, and then evade. MGs require you keep your front (and thus your vital parts) facing the enemy constantly to get much damage out of.
  
• No half tons of ammo.
  
• Machine Guns take ballistic hardpoints, which are very very valuable. MGs might be useful if you could slap a dozen on any 'mech you like, but it maxes out with 6 on that Jag you selected (and a Spider with 5 I think it is.)
  
• Machine Guns are the one weapon to fire in a "cone" so the damage isn't even pinpoint!
  
• Machine Guns offer an enhanced crit chance.. but just barely. It's not enough to matter.

Long story short to get ANYTHING out of MGs you have to stare at them holding down the trigger, keeping your guns on a specific 'mech part. While you are doing this, 6 guys on the other side will hit you with PPCs & ACs square in your weak spot because you're a super easy target when doing this.



That is why MGs are bad, bad guns.

PS: With Ultras or regular ACs, the temptation to do the same as above is there, but try to avoid it. In particular with Ultras, it's best to pop out / line up the enemy, fire a 1-3 second burst until a couple guns jam, and then go evading like crazy again while they unjam / recover so they won't jam. Regular AC/5s can generally get two shots off during a jump or quick peak, too.

Thus why the AC/5 is much more recommended than the AC/2, as it suffers from the MG style "need to stay on target to get effective damage" weakness.



There are acceptable brawling weapons. SRMs are out of favor now because they don't hit faster 'mechs very well, for example, but that's a solid infighting gun that I might call secondary firepower in general. I'd take SRMs over MGs any day of the week, no question.

Yeah. People here are doing a good job of telling me how bad MG's are. And look I believe them. It's just very disappointing that pretty much every mech I've ever played on pen and paper is ineffective on here. Maybe i'll just stick to tabletop. /shrug

[Victor Morson]

Johann Abraham Revil, on 08 January 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Yeah. People here are doing a good job of telling me how bad MG's are. And look I believe them. It's just very disappointing that pretty much every mech I've ever played on pen and paper is ineffective on here. Maybe i'll just stick to tabletop. /shrug

Oh, I've been begging for MG buffs since the dawn of time. I constantly get into it with people who start saying "they are anti-infantry weapons" or pointing out how "bad" they are on TT, because as a gun, it's actually pretty exceptional there: A 0.5 ton weapon that does the damage of a small laser for 0 heat, and 1 ton of ammo is enough (with the core rules) to support a bank of 8+ without even having a problem.

The fan game Living Legends also did a great job keeping them viable; they were about as worthless as here in 'mech combat, but they did massive bonus damage to aircraft, light armor and infantry, which really made them feel like great parts of the 'mech.

But here.. yeah, a lot is going to be different than TT, out of necessity of being a first person game. That said, most really good builds in MW:O would be really good builds in TT, so there's that ; 2x AC/20 is nothing to mess around with there, either, as the King Crab has proven many, many times.

EDIT: Also some weapons that are actually really bad on P&P like the AC/5 are made far better here. Even the lackluster AC/2 in MW:O is a world superior to it's table top equivalent.

EDIT 2: Also for sure check out the Ultra build sometime. Ultras don't jam indefinitely in MW:O, so it's actually a lot of fun at medium ranges and it just strips assaults, offering an alternative to a pure standoff.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 January 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Oh, one last note - abit unrelated to your 'mech question:

Look into joining a league unit with weight restrictions and such. If you're into old school BattleTech and want to play more serious games with teamwork, various roles to fill, objectives and persistence, etc. the community has you covered; google "Run Hot or Die" "Marik Civil War" "Proxis" and probably some I'm forgetting right now. I think you are the type of player who would enjoy that kind of play immensely more, honestly, if you don't mind running some meta builds.