66 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

You must being shooting stationary targets, leading a moving target at 400+ meters with a painfully slow projectile is not at all an easy task.

How can a 13% velocity nerf feel worse than a 27%?

Edited by Spheroid, 10 January 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[Roland]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I personally feel giving weapons x2-x3 their max range, with the damage dropoff, benefits the game more than it detracts from it. Mechs move so fast thats its necessary to give weapons the extra range. Imagine how hard it would be to kill light mechs if all your weapons did zero damage past 270m.

I think its easier to just deal with the balance problems resulting from x2-x3 max range on a case by case basis. Right now the AC/20 vs AC/10 stands out as the biggest problem.

Honestly, I think things would probably work a lot better with just the straight up ranges.

I mean, if all your weapons did zero damage past 270, and the light mech was able to maintain that range.. then yeah, it'd be hard to kill the light mech. Which is exactly how it should be.

Very careful maintaining of range used to be a critical skill in MW4... Dancing on the edge of your enemy's weaponry is something which is actually worth enabling.

Really, a lot of the issues we have stem directly from this aspect of gameplay in MWO.

[Bhael Fire]

I just had a stupid epiphany.

With the upcoming Weapon Module system that they are working on, I can totally see them dumbing down "basic" weapons to allow room for growth with the new advancement system to bring them back to levels that many of us veterans are already comfortable with.

If that's the case...then nerf away, Paul...nerf away.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

it makes both weapons more brawler oriented. as upposed to the jump sniping meta.

*like*

To some extent sure but they are both perfectly relevant on jump sniping mechs. I thought when first read of the nerf that it was going to be horrible but after having played a few matches I found that the difference was noticeable but negligible once adapt to the new shell velocity.
All in all I use both of them in the same ways I did prior to the velocity nerf.

Couple of battles below with a ppc/ac20 victor after the patch...

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 11 January 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[BillyM]

...every time someone runs a AC/PPC/JJ-equipped assault, god kills a kitten.

...every time they make a video about it, I lose a little more faith in the playerbase.

--billyM

[Mudhutwarrior]

My ac10 build is history now. Scores dropped dramatically and where I could hit lights before now it doesn't happen. I am sure it hasn't affected some but for me it did. I still see no point in nerfing the 10. It wasn't the master of the match by any means.
I stopped trying to understand PGI long ago. I do get a good laugh at those who try to tell us they understand.

[Reno Blade]

I find it strange that ACs are all faster, cooler AND are pin-point compared to lasers. The size and weight can be neglected with assault mechs...

After the "nerf" I have no problem with both of these guns.
But I play medium/heavy mechs a lot more than typical Meta builds, or Assaults in general.

Imho the ACs need a change more like this:
http://mwomercs.com/...istic-tweaking/

Edited by Reno Blade, 13 January 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

ACs need ammo. No comparison to energy weapons which only need heatsinks and are infinite.

[Ngamok]

Khobai, on 09 January 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Actually there was never really a reason to use the AC/10. The AC/20s range is so good that it still does 10 damage at 540m whlie the AC/10 starts doing less than 10 damage.

The new slower range hitting a moving target at 540m is challenging. Also, I've had no problems hitting stuff with my AC/10 TBH. I use it in the gun arm of my WVR-6R, the hunch in the Grid Iron and the gun arm in my TDR-5S since the nerf.

[ImperialKnight]

the AC20 nerf was meant to break the AC20/2xPPC long range jump snipe meta. Now the projectiles move at wildly different speeds so hitting a moving target with pinpoint 40 damage is practically impossible

In the past AC20 and PPC had very close projectile speeds, added to the fact they have the same cycle rate

[Ngamok]

knightsljx, on 13 January 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

the AC20 nerf was meant to break the AC20/2xPPC long range jump snipe meta. Now the projectiles move at wildly different speeds so hitting a moving target with pinpoint 40 damage is practically impossible

In the past AC20 and PPC had very close projectile speeds, added to the fact they have the same cycle rate

Yea, I haven't played with a mech that has an AC/20 in it in quite some time. I just bought an ON1-M (that is now all the Orions I own), and put an AC/20 in it. Lots slower. Will take a little adjustment on my part.

[Reno Blade]

Mudhutwarrior, on 13 January 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

ACs need ammo. No comparison to energy weapons which only need heatsinks and are infinite.

If you have enough ammo to kill 5+ targets, you are way more helpful than to try to survive long enough with a few ERLLaser.
Do you see people run out of ammo nowadays?
I don't.
People die very quick and way quicker and easier with ACs than with Laser.
Medium and light mechs can't use ACs, but thats one of the reasons they are played so few (or so un-successfully). They just can't compete with PPC/AC "boats".

[Mcgral18]

Reno Blade, on 13 January 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

If you have enough ammo to kill 5+ targets, you are way more helpful than to try to survive long enough with a few ERLLaser.
Do you see people run out of ammo nowadays?
I don't.
People die very quick and way quicker and easier with ACs than with Laser.
Medium and light mechs can't use ACs, but thats one of the reasons they are played so few (or so un-successfully). They just can't compete with PPC/AC "boats".

Now now, the 45 and 55 tonners do just fine with dakka. They also have the speed and some have the JJs needed to position themselves ideally for that dakka.

[Varent]

xMEPHISTOx, on 11 January 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

To some extent sure but they are both perfectly relevant on jump sniping mechs. I thought when first read of the nerf that it was going to be horrible but after having played a few matches I found that the difference was noticeable but negligible once adapt to the new shell velocity.
All in all I use both of them in the same ways I did prior to the velocity nerf.

Couple of battles below with a ppc/ac20 victor after the patch...

I would say and the video shows, that this depends on range of engagement. Can you still jump snipe with them? Yes. Is it harder? Yes. Does it require you to be closer? Yes.

Overall still a good change.

[Prezimonto]

Mudhutwarrior, on 13 January 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

ACs need ammo. No comparison to energy weapons which only need heatsinks and are infinite.

Ammo isn't a real concern on most builds because ammo rarely explodes and you can bring more than enough for a single match.

If the explosion rate on ammo went up to ~50% instead of the current 10%, THEN I'd agree with you. Even more, if there was active scanning that would tell you where ammo was located on a mech, I'd agree. As it stand's I don't, ammo isn't a real concern other than dedicating an addition 3 tons or so for big ac's.

Edited by Prezimonto, 13 January 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Prezimonto, on 13 January 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ammo isn't a real concern on most builds because ammo rarely explodes and you can bring more than enough for a single match. If the explosion rate on ammo went up to ~50% instead of the current 10%, THEN I'd agree with you. Even more, if there was active scanning that would tell you where ammo was located on a mech, I'd agree. As it stand's I don't, ammo isn't a real concern other than dedicating an addition 3 tons or so for big ac's.

Yeah this is a problem with the game. With these short matches, and complete reloads inbetween, ammo is never an issue.

The balance is supposed to in the end be Heat vs. Ammo. And that's all out of whack.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Reno Blade, on 13 January 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

I.....Medium and light mechs can't use ACs, but thats one of the reasons they are played so few (or so un-successfully). They just can't compete with PPC/AC "boats".

My Hunchies and Shawks would argue against that. So would Blackjack pilots. Shawk can even carry 2 PPCs and an AC5 if you wanted to. All 3 can carry AC20s (and often do). Many people are quite successful in both lights and mediums.
MetaHawk;
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3cc4c7cc903490f

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 13 January 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

My Hunchies and Shawks would argue against that. So would Blackjack pilots. Shawk can even carry 2 PPCs and an AC5 if you wanted to. All 3 can carry AC20s (and often do). Many people are quite successful in both lights and mediums.
MetaHawk;
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3cc4c7cc903490f

Yup, I like running Medium Assault Meta builds - Hunchbacks and Shadow Hawks with mixed AC and PPCs.

The PPC = AC/X meta will evolve in accordance to what projectiles match eachother's velocities. In Closed Beta, the AC/20 was lobbed slowly [like the "new" velocity in the latest patch], and the Gauss and the PPCs traveled in the ~1300 meter/second range. The Meta of the time was Gauss + PPCs because they were big and would impact at the same time. Over time the ACs speeds were drastically increased, as were the PPCs... the Meta changed... then PPCs were slowed down and Gauss was sped up... the Meta Changed again.

This time it was PPCs + AC/10, PPC + AC/20, and PPC + (1 or 2) AC/5. These combinations all worked because the Autocannons all fired fast projectiles in the same ballpark as the PPCs' speeds.

NOW... with the AC/10 and AC/20 velocity reductions, the primary combined Meta will probably shift more strongly toward PPC + AC/5s because they will impact on-target at the same time - that allows for better shots on moving targets. Twin AC/5 and twin PPCs act kind of like Twin Heavy PPCs with less heat, an ammo-dependent low-heat firing mode, and infinite ammo for the high-heat firing mode.

AC/10 and AC/20 + PPCs are very powerful platforms still, but the require better trigger timing to make the projectiles hit on a moving target. You have to fire the AC first, then fire the PPCs, and the timing is distance-dependent: Just increase your firing lead for the AC/10 by about half-more than the PPCs, and roughly double your lead for the AC/20 compared to the PPCs.

[Reno Blade]

Yes the Shadowhawk is quite successfull in that matter.
Trying to get a Hunchi with the same build is suicide (XL engine and no JJ). Using 2 or 3 ACs on the Hunchi doesn't work as good as on the SHD either.

But It shows the flaw of the weapons... You need to take these meta builds, or you are not usefull.
If that doesn't show that they are too good, what else?

[xMEPHISTOx]

Varent, on 13 January 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I would say and the video shows, that this depends on range of engagement. Can you still jump snipe with them? Yes. Is it harder? Yes. Does it require you to be closer? Yes.

Overall still a good change.

Not only the engagement range has changed but I find that it plays better now when played aggressively as opposed to the sit back and pop people from a distance. You need to close the distance at some point to get the full damage potential.