125 replies to this topic

[18 Inches of Hard Steel]

Josef Nader, on 15 January 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

You're forgetting a major factor; we don't have a lot of the weapons Clan lights have available to them yet. If the LB2/5 was in the game, or 5 ton LRM 20s (I know they talked about upping the weight on these, but I don't see how they can without breaking canon mechs over their knee), or 7 crit Endo/Ferro, or 2 crit DHS. All of these things make a huge difference to the meta and are -definitely- going to change how much design is approached. Clan lights are very different beasts to IS lights, and I definitely think they'll have a place, especially if they don't mixtech.

I hear what you're saying Joe, I really hope the clan weapons, heatsinks, and other tech will make the lights viable. Based on what we know it's very possible the lights wont work, and I hope PGI sees this thread and rethinks their strategy.

[CDLord HHGD]

Fate 6, on 15 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Blackjack, Death's Knell, Jester, Orion were all DoA. The Spider was also pretty mediocre when it was released (changes to the game have made it better, along with somehow worse hit registering).

The ONLY mech I have seen that was far from DoA is the Shadowhawk. Again that has a lot to do with the changes to the game. The Griffin would have been a GOD this time last year

I don't have any trouble with those mechs..... Maybe once people realize that boating isn't the best out there. Tactics are already being developed to end their reign. Boom Jag? Aim for a weak side torso. Boom/Splat Cat? In the face! ECM? Left Torso. Poptart? Keep your damn head down and flank.

My best mechs are ones with mixed loadouts that can deal it at any range. The only boats that makes me cringe are missile boats. And those are the only boats that fit in with lore.

[Hillslam]

I will buy coffee and donuts for the ENTIRE FORUM the day clanners stop whining about not getting uber boss mechs!

$TFU about it already

Edited by Hillslam, 16 January 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[FupDup]

Hillslam, on 16 January 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

I will buy coffee and donuts for the ENTIRE FORUM the day clanners stop whining about not getting uber boss mechs!

$TFU about it already

For Clan lights (particularly the Kit Fox), the pendulum has swung in the exact opposite direction and there's a good chance that they will suck popsickles. I want Clans to be balanced as much as any other guy, but what you have to understand is that we don't have to make them inferior to the Inner Sphere to accomplish that.

[Utilyan]

Imagine having this useless mech next to you (the kit fox) with..........ECM, 3 fricken AMS, TAG and a beagle, and at 30 tons possibly smaller then a Jenner. And this thing has A-Pods which you prob would not need against mechs so that gives you 1 tons to play with, enough to fit.........4 clan machine guns.


So you got 6MGs, ER large laser, Small pulse. 3 AMS with 4TONS of ammo. Did I mention this has ECM!?

Edited by Utilyan, 16 January 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[FupDup]

Utilyan, on 16 January 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Imagine having this useless mech next to you (the kit fox) with..........ECM, 3 fricken AMS, and a beagle, and at 30 tons possibly smaller then a Jenner. And this thing has A-Pods which you prob would not need against mechs so that gives you 1 tons to play with, enough to fit.........4 clan machine guns.

AMS isn't really a necessary item in games. Cover is better than AMS, and doesn't require ammo or tonnage. And that variant of the Fox already has ECM, which is infinitely better than AMS. And even if you did want AMS, 3 is just overkill. Beagle is only useful on SSRM boats and occasionally LRM boats.

By the way, the Fox carries roughly as much armor stock as a Locust, and can only go 106 kph when speed tweaked.

Edited by FupDup, 16 January 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[FireSlade]

I still cannot call them DOA since we do not know how they will be treated. I am running an Adder Prime minus the Flamer on my Jenner (Thanks Lucky Moniker for the idea) and it possibly is one of the most fun mechs I have piloted. 97.2kph is plenty to keep most mechs at the distance that I want and I can lure some, looking for an easy kill, towards my team to rip apart. Other lights are not too much as a problem since I stay close to my team and it scares some when they get hit by ERPPCs while chasing me. I suck with lights but I can do very well considering that I am running a DOA design minus the 5 extra damage that CERPPCs have. Do not believe me? Try for yourselves http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b8ec2d44acb918f just treat it like a fast direct fire support that the Adder is and only shoot 1 ERPPC at a time

FupDup, on 16 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

AMS isn't really a necessary item in games. Cover is better than AMS, and doesn't require ammo or tonnage. And that variant of the Fox already has ECM, which is infinitely better than AMS. And even if you did want AMS, 3 is just overkill. Beagle is only useful on SSRM boats and occasionally LRM boats. By the way, the Fox carries roughly as much armor stock as a Locust, and can only go 106 kph when speed tweaked.

AMS handles SRMs, SSRMs, and LRMs making it very useful but because of tonnage most lights do not bother because if they did SSRMs would not be such a threat to them (especially with everyone chain firing missiles).

Edited by FireSlade, 16 January 2014 - 01:04 PM.

[FupDup]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I still cannot call them DOA since we do not know how they will be treated. I am running an Adder Prime minus the Flamer on my Jenner (Thanks Lucky Moniker for the idea) and it possibly is one of the most fun mechs I have piloted. 97.2kph is plenty to keep most mechs at the distance that I want and I can lure some, looking for an easy kill, towards my team to rip apart. Other lights are not too much as a problem since I stay close to my team and it scares some when they get hit by ERPPCs while chasing me. I suck with lights but I can do very well considering that I am running a DOA design minus the 5 extra damage that CERPPCs have. Do not believe me? Try for yourselves http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b8ec2d44acb918f just treat it like a fast direct fire support that the Adder is and only shoot 1 ERPPC at a time


AMS handles SRMs, SSRMs, and LRMs making it very useful but because of tonnage most lights do not bother because if they did SSRMs would not be such a threat to them (especially with everyone chain firing missiles).

SRMs are not a large threat in most situations, because not many people use them and they spread damage all over (not to mention, don't always register). LRMs are easy to avoid just by hanging near some piece of cover--If my timing isn't horrible, I can often dodge an incoming volley with a Stalker. Chain-firing missiles is almost never a good idea due to exposure time and damage spreading, especially with LRMs. SSRMs are a threat if you're under 60 tons or damaged, but using up tonnage and slots on something that is only situational isn't the best use of tonnage and critical slots. Especially if you have ECM (which the AMS Kit Fox comes stock with), then AMS is basically pointless.


As for your "Ghetto Adder" Jenner, you can probably do the same thing but better on a Phoenix medium or maybe even a small heavy. It's just not the best way to utilize a light mech, sort of like trying to shoehorn an XL 400 into an assault mech. Also, Clan tech is getting nerfed, and the Clan ERPPC is sure to be on the list because it's been one of the craziest weapons in BT and in previous MW games. It might do less than 15 damage, and it is very likely to have a max alpha of only 1. On a lesser note, your Ghetto Adder also has 4 extra points of leg armor (which is not that huge of a difference, but still somewhat noticeable on a mech that is lightly armored in general). I'm not sure if PGI will allow Clan mechs to mount JJs in their pod space (like BT) or if they'll be restricted by variant/body part like IS mechs.

Edited by FupDup, 16 January 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[FireSlade]

FupDup, on 16 January 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

SRMs are not a large threat in most situations, because not many people use them and they spread damage all over (not to mention, don't always register). LRMs are easy to avoid just by hanging near some piece of cover--If my timing isn't horrible, I can often dodge an incoming volley with a Stalker. Chain-firing missiles is almost never a good idea due to exposure time and damage spreading, especially with LRMs. SSRMs are a threat if you're under 60 tons or damaged, but using up tonnage and slots on something that is only situational isn't the best use of tonnage and critical slots. Especially if you have ECM (which the AMS Kit Fox comes stock with), then AMS is basically pointless.

With how little speed and armor that the Kit Fox has it is going to need every trick up its sleeve just to be viable. Also any mech with SSRMS usually carries BAP which would be a big threat to it. I do agree on your other points though.

[Lucian Nostra]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I still cannot call them DOA since we do not know how they will be treated. I am running an Adder Prime minus the Flamer on my Jenner (Thanks Lucky Moniker for the idea) and it possibly is one of the most fun mechs I have piloted. 97.2kph is plenty to keep most mechs at the distance that I want and I can lure some, looking for an easy kill, towards my team to rip apart. Other lights are not too much as a problem since I stay close to my team and it scares some when they get hit by ERPPCs while chasing me. I suck with lights but I can do very well considering that I am running a DOA design minus the 5 extra damage that CERPPCs have. Do not believe me? Try for yourselves http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b8ec2d44acb918f just treat it like a fast direct fire support that the Adder is and only shoot 1 ERPPC at a time


AMS handles SRMs, SSRMs, and LRMs making it very useful but because of tonnage most lights do not bother because if they did SSRMs would not be such a threat to them (especially with everyone chain firing missiles).

JR7-K

Fixed it for you, your armor was distributed front heavy which you can't do on a clan mech, you had JJs on there while the Adder has none, you also said you ran it sans Flamer. to bad you have to run that flamer.

Oh whoops you also cut your head armor to up armor your legs. another NOPE

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 16 January 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[Lucian Nostra]

The Adder might do ok by virtue of it having maxed armor and wanting to run long range weapons but the Kit Fox in it's current unmodifiable state is going to be a disaster. Take a max armor locust and run around at 97kph and see how long you survive a match.

Sure in a Kit Fox you'll have more weapons, meaning people will want to put you down.. meaning you will die even faster.

[FireSlade]

Lucian Nostra, on 16 January 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

JR7-K

Fixed it for you, your armor was distributed front heavy which you can't do on a clan mech, you had JJs on there while the Adder has none, you also said you ran it sans Flamer. to bad you have to run that flamer.

See with MWO no weapon is hardwired so I highly doubt that I have to run that Flamer. As for the JJs (these may be allowed to be added as pod equipment, so you never know) and armor I think that the lack of CERPPCs would make up for that since 15 damage per-shot, 30 total, makes a big difference compared to IS tech. Also you forgot that the Adder has 6 ton of armor so I run a bit heavy on that too. The whole point of my post was to say that I can run sans Clan design and not get my *** handed to me so calling any Clan mech DOA before they arrive because we feel that they will not fit our current meta is foolish.

[FupDup]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

See with MWO no weapon is hardwired so I highly doubt that I have to run that Flamer. As for the JJs (these may be allowed to be added as pod equipment, so you never know) and armor I think that the lack of CERPPCs would make up for that since 15 damage per-shot, 30 total, makes a big difference compared to IS tech. Also you forgot that the Adder has 6 ton of armor so I run a bit heavy on that too. The whole point of my post was to say that I can run sans Clan design and not get my *** handed to me so calling any Clan mech DOA before they arrive because we feel that they will not fit our current meta is foolish.

In the command chair post about Clans, the devs said that they're following the TT rules for stuff you can and cannot do with Clan mechs. One of the things you can't do is remove equipment that is built into the "base" chassis. The base Adder has a Flamer hardwired into its head that you cannot ever remove unless you use the StratOps refit rules (which PGI doesn't seem to be using).

[FireSlade]

FupDup, on 16 January 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

In the command chair post about Clans, the devs said that they're following the TT rules for stuff you can and cannot do with Clan mechs. One of the things you can't do is remove equipment that is built into the "base" chassis. The base Adder has a Flamer hardwired into its head that you cannot ever remove unless you use the StratOps refit rules (which PGI doesn't seem to be using).

You could very well be correct in this, but the only things that I saw mentioned was engine rating, armor amounts and distribution, armor type, internal structure, and removing heat sinks; nothing about weapons. My gut is telling me that rather than an Omni HP it will be an energy only HP and that Flamer can be swapped with an CERML or left out, but this is just me and not hard fact. Also in TT you cannot do half the customizing that we can do unless you run laxer rules which I hear that tournaments do not allow. So this also tells me that PGI will not be that strict to the rules. And even if I ran with that wasted ton (no one says that I have to use it) it just means no JJs on my Jenner which the Oxide proves is not game breaking.

[FupDup]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

You could very well be correct in this, but the only things that I saw mentioned was engine rating, armor amounts and distribution, armor type, internal structure, and removing heat sinks; nothing about weapons. My gut is telling me that rather than an Omni HP it will be an energy only HP and that Flamer can be swapped with an CERML or left out, but this is just me and not hard fact. Also in TT you cannot do half the customizing that we can do unless you run laxer rules which I hear that tournaments do not allow. So this also tells me that PGI will not be that strict to the rules. And even if I ran with that wasted ton (no one says that I have to use it) it just means no JJs on my Jenner which the Oxide proves is not game breaking.

Command Chair Post said:

Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

We aim to follow these as closely as possible, but the restrictions may be eased if gameplay and balance require it.

The bolded and underlined part is what I'm referring to (for the Adder's case, this means the head Flamer). Of course, the line just underneath it says that the restrictions might get loosened up if necessary, but currently this list is what we have to go by.

Edited by FupDup, 16 January 2014 - 09:22 PM.

[FireSlade]

FupDup, on 16 January 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

The bolded and underlined part is what I'm referring to (for the Adder's case, this means the head Flamer). Of course, the line just underneath it says that the restrictions might get loosened up if necessary, but currently this list is what we have to go by.

Ok, but still not game breaking to bring it, just not optimal with how Flamers work in game. My whole point was that a 97.2kph light mech is not DOA, it just needs a change in tactics and thought process. No running around a group of enemies like a midget little person on speed and expecting to deal damage and survive.

[FupDup]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Ok, but still not game breaking to bring it, just not optimal with how Flamers work in game. My whole point was that a 97.2kph light mech is not DOA, it just needs a change in tactics and thought process. No running around a group of enemies like a midget little person on speed and expecting to deal damage and survive.

The tactics and thought process required to survive as a slow light are similar to the ones required for mediums that go the same speed. The latter mechs get more armor and firepower, with identical speed. I think I'll stick to the Stormcrow if I want a 97.2 kph Omnimech.

And, slow lights are just not very difficult to kill. They crumble like paper, because speed is the light mech's equivalent of armor in most cases. Even fast ones aren't too hard to put down unless they're really really crafty, at least not with my beloved 2 LL + 2 UAC/5 Victor.

Edited by FupDup, 16 January 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Alex Warden]

Risen, on 10 January 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

But let us just wait until PGI comes up with some more infos, until then there is no reason to buy any Clan package upfront.

nothing to add

[Denolven]

18 Inches of Hard Steel, on 15 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is shocking, I'll try and take it point by point.

Ok ok, let's cool down a bit, because obviously I sounded more aggressive than I intended to. I'll try to be more precise this time:

Quote

-DO NOT GET HIT BY BIG STUFF
This is advice to who? A caveman? Really?

That's just how my brain works - I remove anything that is not important; and from there I look at the options that I have with what is left. My statement is the essence of what light Mechs are for me, their abstract representation in my head.
I have a tendency to assume that everyone can clearly see what I'm talking about, despite knowing that it would be pure luck due to how communication between humans works. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm working on that.

Quote

-using brains and learning to see what is actually going on
More fantastic advice. Who said turn off your brain?
Lights are scouts, moving lets you see things, moving fast lets you see more things…

Moving is one way. There are other ways, and some of them are not limited by what Mech you are in. Again, just how my brain works, and stupidly giggling to myself how others don't see it, while being blind about how that is perceived. I didn't intend to offend you.

Quote

-mindlessly running around
Where does this come from? Spite? Do you not like my name?

Dude I don't even remember your name even after reading it just 2 minutes ago . Really, I wasn't talking about anyone specific. It's just what I have seen allover the place, people stepping into a 170 kph mech, thinking that speed alone gives them godlike freedom. I've seen it with PUGs, my friends, and myself. It doesn't work that way.

Quote

-Speed is a tool, nothing more and nothing less.
speed is a light’s most important tool

Now we get to the point. I disagree
Battle awareness is what I use, because it's more reliable and less dependant on things (not buyable with C-Bills though). But that's just my flavor. You are probably more of a fighter, so I can see why you are more focused on weaponry and speed. Let's just agree that there are different ways to play. If you want to discuss that in more detail, feel free to send me a PM. Maybe your point of view gives me a better insight for the book I'm writing

Quote

-It's not about what cards you get, it's about how you play them.
In MWO I get to choose my cards and how I play them, maybe you’re thinking of a game where the mechs are randomly built…

Yup, you got me on that one

Quote

-(in fact I've never seen anyone else using a 265 on a Jenner)
You can never tell for sure what engine someone has while in match, this is only speculation.

With "seen" I meant in the forums. I'm pretty sure there is someone else out there who uses a sub 275 engine in a Jenner, but you probably agree that it seems to be rather rare.

Quote

You took a thirteen word excerpt from my post and extrapolated that I’m a bad pilot who doesn’t use his brain

I apologize, it wasn't meant that way. What I tried to say was: you are probably too much focused on speed. There are other tools as well.
But yes, silly me sometimes thinks that my way of playing is superior to other ways. And sometimes I offend people more than I want. I apologize. This is one of my long term TODOs

[Lucian Nostra]

FireSlade, on 16 January 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

See with MWO no weapon is hardwired so I highly doubt that I have to run that Flamer. As for the JJs (these may be allowed to be added as pod equipment, so you never know) and armor I think that the lack of CERPPCs would make up for that since 15 damage per-shot, 30 total, makes a big difference compared to IS tech. Also you forgot that the Adder has 6 ton of armor so I run a bit heavy on that too. The whole point of my post was to say that I can run sans Clan design and not get my *** handed to me so calling any Clan mech DOA before they arrive because we feel that they will not fit our current meta is foolish.

As PGI has only allowed JJs on mechs that canonically had JJs I wouldn't go expecting Omni's to be able to pack them unless, canonically they had them (something like Aidan Pryde's Timberwolf) because if you think they're gonna let us slap JJs on any omni and turn MWO into Pop-tart Direwolf online.. I'd just point out that for 40 tons you can pack 3 clan erppcs and 2 ultra 10 ACs for a jumping, pinpoint 65 alpha..

Flamer has been covered by FupDup

Armor you have to run heavier on the tonnage since Clan FF provides more armor per ton than Sphere the armor I adjusted for you is what the adder will be running following PGI's doubling of armor.

Clan erppcs vs sphere ones is just a sacrifice you gotta make till they are in.

With all that said I still believe the Adder will have a place in MWO, with tonnage limits coming it might not be bad to have a 35 tonner running dual erppcs, especially if they stay are 15 damage a whack (something I highly suspect they won't). While maintaining close to max armor even if the armor isn't optimized (which is going to be a huge problem for clanners.. most of the clan mechs might run close to 80% max armor but the armor isn't concentrated like we run our sphere machines)

The Kit Fox though. yeah..

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 17 January 2014 - 06:30 AM.