35 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

I just pass along the intel I see. (5 enemies D5 do not solo rush in.) What the team does with that intel is up to them.

Minor advice can easily be followed, advanced tactics are best left for teamspeak. The confusion can overtake a team quickly.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Kay Wolf, on 13 January 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

What I would like to see, as well, is Lances work as Lances, but too many people like to run off on their own.

That's the risk taken by following the command of someone else. Typically, if someone has balls enough to take command, they're going to have a clue for what they want to do, but most have no real means of "verbally" AND, through the BattleGrid, signalling what they want to do. It's going to be pretty obvious, and quickly -especially if they don't have a BattleGrid assignment done in the first three or less minutes-, if someone has no clue what they're doing. For my part, I'm waiting until I have AU up and running, again, though I've been sorely tempted to take command, again, several times.

See this is one big area where we differ. Currently it LITERALLY takes nothing more than being the first one to click the button. I do it all the time if in a pre-made and we are all "just mechwarriors" as opposed to having a drop-caller in the group.

So just because someone "takes on the responsibility", it doesn't mean they are taking it seriously. I've even seen people issue silly orders just to troll.

Agreed. While there are unrefined souls who couldn't assign Lances if their lives depended on it, thus relying on the murder ball for the win, there are others who have a clue.

Kay Wolf, on 13 January 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

I am also hoping that UI 2.0 will change a lot of things; it's supposed to be a whole new intuitive interface ball game after, and I truly hope it is. The problem with not following someone with balls enough to take command, and who actually tries to be a commander, is that commander will not gain any more confidence, will become discouraged, and then all you have are big murder fests.

There is still time to reverse this trend.

While I agree potential leaders need to followed, helped etc I don't think PUGs are the place to do it. The DHB is always on the look out for new leaders, and often our training sessions are about helping new leaders learn as well as what to do when the leader goofs up.

[Darth Futuza]

Craig Steele, on 13 January 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

This, personally i always try and follow orders if someone is brave enough to take command. But too many times my Jenner has been ordered to defend a piece of open territory like the water on Forest colony that I now just go, "ummmmm, yeah....no"

Part of this issue is the fact that lances aren't divided up very well. Its much more useful to have alpha be light lance, bravo be medium/heavy lance, and charlie be assault lance. Then the orders actually might make sense if the commander can remember which lance specializes in what. Still...there are a lot of situation where this is actually bad as well.

[Threat Doc]

Nick Makiaveli, on 14 January 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

See this is one big area where we differ.

I don't think we differ as much as you might think on this, actually... it's just different ways of communicating similar ideas.

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So just because someone "takes on the responsibility", it doesn't mean they are taking it seriously. I've even seen people issue silly orders just to troll.

Well, I'll put it to you this way... if you see ME take command, pay attention, some ****'s gonna happen. I'm not saying I'm like a super commander or anything, I'm just a guy, but any time I've issued a command, whether the one time since last September when I actually took command and issued orders through the BG, or I do it in chat, and people have followed what I've asked them to do, we have almost always won.

Quote

Agreed. While there are unrefined souls who couldn't assign Lances if their lives depended on it, thus relying on the murder ball for the win, there are others who have a clue.

That's one thing you would never ever see from me in a PUG... though I advocate for the idea that those who take command have the right -of necessity- to move people around of their own volition, I will work with what I have. The value of pre-made Lances, or friends working as a fire team, is far more important than getting what I can out of arranging them.

See, I'm really REALLY old school, where in the BattleTech tabletop there was one Light, one Medium, one Heavy, and one Assault 'Mech per Lance. I learned to work from that abortion to way better things, and now believe I could get established Lance's to do what I need them to do.

Again, please do not misunderstand, I don't think I'm great commanding in the field, I'm adequate, at best, and I already know there are FAR better folks for that than me, but I've been more successful than not when I do take charge.

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While I agree potential leaders need to followed, helped etc I don't think PUGs are the place to do it. The DHB is always on the look out for new leaders, and often our training sessions are about helping new leaders learn as well as what to do when the leader goofs up.

This IS where you and I will differ. More often than not, and I'd like to provide the psychological studies involving this, but I don't know where any are, right now, people want to be lead. I believe a person who is paying any modicum of attention can grab onto a command given in chat, and begin to execute to the best of their ability. Does it work with whole PUGs? I've seen it work twice, perhaps three times in all of the 700+ games I've played since returning in September, and it's almost always turning a good chance at a loss to an extraordinary win. I realize that's around 4/10ths of one percent of my games, but it has happened.

Like you good folks in DHB, my intent is to get my people trained up in the culture of the unit, as well as leadership and combat skills, among many other things.

Darth Futuza, on 14 January 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Part of this issue is the fact that lances aren't divided up very well. Its much more useful to have alpha be light lance, bravo be medium/heavy lance, and charlie be assault lance. Then the orders actually might make sense if the commander can remember which lance specializes in what. Still...there are a lot of situation where this is actually bad as well.

You and I would definitely be in serious disagreement over this. Various commanders deal with various types and combinations of Lances better than others. So, while that might go well for you, my ideal would be to have one Scout per Lance, with Heavies filling out Alpha, Mediums filling out Bravo, and Assaults filling out the balance of Charlie. That's not my only Lance type, however. My intent is to allow my Lance Leaders to build up their own Lance types, Company Commanders to build up their own Companies, etc., within my most basic framework for the Brigade.

[Arahantius]

Acierocolotl, on 11 January 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

All that said, it's been my experience that people respond better to, "I need backup at base," than, "OMG GET BACK TO BASE NAO" or whatever. PUGs don't always like to get yelled at, that's why they're pugging it up, not playing in the ultradeathleet clangroup.

I agree with this part. The giving of orders needs to be in a manner that isn't automatically rejected. Any good commander in any real defence force knows this.
Did you know that in some defence forces, a cadet officer cannot be promoted to officer if his peers say no - this is a fact. This makes for a more cohesive unit in actual war scenarios.

Edited by Arahantius, 15 January 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

I swear to god every now and then I run into a player who practically behaves as if they are the main character in a novel or anime. No jokes, some people need a good slap across the face to remind them that they are nothing special, and the world isn't their playground, everyone else gets equal dibs.

[Threat Doc]

IraqiWalker, on 16 January 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

I swear to god every now and then I run into a player who practically behaves as if they are the main character in a novel or anime. No jokes, some people need a good slap across the face to remind them that they are nothing special, and the world isn't their playground, everyone else gets equal dibs.

Yes, but you're playing a fictional character in a fictional universe driving fictional machines; you are a MechWarrior in the BattleTech universe. You ARE the main character in your novel or anime, so why not push it a bit further? Besides, what separates someone who takes command in a computer game from someone who takes command in the real world? Nothing, except the TYPE of reality it is, and the education/practice they might receive to do it; just because it's virtual, does that mean someone is, straight away, a joke if they take command. No; it means they have balls enough to try it, while the rest sit back and JUST play, as scrubs.

I guess there is a second difference, and it applies to those who take command for selfish reasons, or who view taking command as a joke, and that's the fact there are no lasting consequences, no one actually dies, in a game like this. The big thing to remember about this type of team game in THIS universe is that it is a military operations war game, and people should probably treat it as such, moreso than any CoD or MMO raid game in existence. The flavor of the game demands it, the setup of the game demands it -placing people in Lance's and displaying a Company-, and there is a very real, long and proud tradition of actual in-game units for people to join, from NetMech 95 to now, and certainly on the board game. Indeed, the vast majority of players in this game will join a unit, and I discuss that here, while INDIVIDUALS, and yes, that's a CURSE word, will continue to do their own thing, without regard for anyone else, which is why, if I have the ability to do it, once Community Warfare Phase One is dropped on us, I will disallow Lone Wolves to fill holes in my ranks.

This is THE game, and THE universe, to practically behave as if you are the main character of a novel or anime.

I think I'm done with this conversation.

EDIT: One final note... if this game were made so that, if you get shot down in your BattleMech the salvage and repair rules apply, I'll guarantee you it would take approximately six hours for the more stalwart players to fall in line with a rank & file orders system, and the rest would simply leave the game because they're too ignorant to be able to handle it.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 16 January 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[fluffypinkbunny]

My quick question to the op is, did somebody (the person giving the order) take the time to hit the take command button. I love armchair commanders, but only if they actually take time to command, maybe issue some orders using the battle grid,then maybe i'll listen to you, but as a merc i'm there to get paid, do my contract and BOUNCE!

[ShadowbaneX]

The only reason to take command in a Public match is to prevent some other {Dezgra} from taking command and scrambling your pre-made lance if you happen to be playing with friends.

As for this case in particular, so you shout RTB and some guy says stuff it? The best response to this isn't going on the forums to complain, it's to call out "ok, everyone BUT that guy RTB" and then you carry on. Now, you've just undermined him. The likely result is that most people will ignore you and you'll die horribly anyway, but at least now you got a witty retort in.

Most matches are usually 5 to 8 minutes long, and usually by the time you see the flanking attack you're already several minutes in, which means that the fight could already be half over. So you go and play, have some fun, and if you lose, you lose and you play the next game. If you win, you win, and you play the next game.

[fluffypinkbunny]

When I take command, I issue orders in the battle grid, and bring the lances, where they should go. Sometimes they listen or not, but honestly, I like following the commands when somebody has a little star, because that means they took the time to actually think they want to command

[Arahantius]

fluffypinkbunny, on 16 January 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

When I take command, I issue orders in the battle grid, and bring the lances, where they should go. Sometimes they listen or not, but honestly, I like following the commands when somebody has a little star, because that means they took the time to actually think they want to command

I agree, I follow orders every single time someone uses the map commands. Sorry to say I'll never be in Kay's command since I enjoy being a lone wolf but such is life

[Nick Makiaveli]

Kay Wolf, on 14 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I don't think we differ as much as you might think on this, actually... it's just different ways of communicating similar ideas.

Well, I'll put it to you this way... if you see ME take command, pay attention, some ****'s gonna happen. I'm not saying I'm like a super commander or anything, I'm just a guy, but any time I've issued a command, whether the one time since last September when I actually took command and issued orders through the BG, or I do it in chat, and people have followed what I've asked them to do, we have almost always won.

That's one thing you would never ever see from me in a PUG... though I advocate for the idea that those who take command have the right -of necessity- to move people around of their own volition, I will work with what I have. The value of pre-made Lances, or friends working as a fire team, is far more important than getting what I can out of arranging them.

Here's the deal. Just about any commander is better than no commander when the other side is a mob. However the other side may not be a mob, then we need a real commander. So if I am solo dropping, I generally command myself, though I will follow good advice.

Kay Wolf, on 14 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

See, I'm really REALLY old school, where in the BattleTech tabletop there was one Light, one Medium, one Heavy, and one Assault 'Mech per Lance. I learned to work from that abortion to way better things, and now believe I could get established Lance's to do what I need them to do.

That sounds like some house rule, as Assault mechs were rare and definitely not in every lance. Especially a scout lance (discounting the odd Charger).

Kay Wolf, on 14 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

This IS where you and I will differ. More often than not, and I'd like to provide the psychological studies involving this, but I don't know where any are, right now, people want to be lead. I believe a person who is paying any modicum of attention can grab onto a command given in chat, and begin to execute to the best of their ability. Does it work with whole PUGs? I've seen it work twice, perhaps three times in all of the 700+ games I've played since returning in September, and it's almost always turning a good chance at a loss to an extraordinary win. I realize that's around 4/10ths of one percent of my games, but it has happened.

That's a generalization and only partially applicable to this situation. This is a game, and many people use it escape the norm and thus act differently. So some will want to run wild and not be told what to do. Others will want to command to experience something they don't get in life etc.

Kay Wolf, on 14 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Like you good folks in DHB, my intent is to get my people trained up in the culture of the unit, as well as leadership and combat skills, among many other things.

The problem is that PUGs are nobody's people, and so it's very unlikely to have any significant or lasting effect.

[Threat Doc]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 January 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Here's the deal. Just about any commander is better than no commander when the other side is a mob. However the other side may not be a mob, then we need a real commander. So if I am solo dropping, I generally command myself, though I will follow good advice.

Given.

Quote

That sounds like some house rule, as Assault mechs were rare and definitely not in every lance. Especially a scout lance (discounting the odd Charger).

Nope. Mostly, it was in the fluff, not a rule at all, but the idea was to have one of each type of 'Mech in a Lance. Also, originally, there were no restrictions on any weight class, a 'Mech was a 'Mech. Now, read the novel about the Gray Death Legion, "Decision at Thunder Rift", and understand they had a SINGLE LANCE -only four 'Mechs- for that contract, and they were considered to be a rich unit at the time. Some time between 1986, when that novel came out, and 1990, two years prior to the release of the Clans, all of a sudden you're working on Companies, Battalions, and Regiments. I think there's probably one line of text, in ALL of the books I've had in the past, and what remains, now, where it is mentioned that Assault 'Mechs are a rare sight on the battlefield.

Assault 'Mechs are SUPPOSED to be the king of the battlefield, but when a damn Recon 'Mech can take one out, there's a problem. I hope whatever role fixes and changes PGI has planned come down soon, before or parallel to CW, because I'm getting sick and tired of being taken down, when I'm in a "king of the battlefield" by frackin' gnats!!! That's stupid. If you can hit a Raven with four AC/10s, or a 40-rack of LRMs, and it just walks away without appearing to have taken damage, at all, there's something way wrong, there.

Quote

That's a generalization and only partially applicable to this situation. This is a game, and many people use it escape the norm and thus act differently. So some will want to run wild and not be told what to do. Others will want to command to experience something they don't get in life etc.

It's a generalization that... generally... holds. See what I did there, hehe?

Quote

The problem is that PUGs are nobody's people, and so it's very unlikely to have any significant or lasting effect.

It is unfortunate, but what you've said is the truth, and I can't fault you for it, in the least. I wish there were a way to give people a primer, from within the lobby of the game, perhaps, to help people understand what BattleTech, and the basis of this game, is about. There are a ton of videos on YouTube about what BattleTech is, and I'm sure there will be a ton more, so if those could be linked, even as just a keyword search from the game to YouTube, the resources are out there.

[Sephlock]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 January 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Here's the deal. Just about any commander is better than no commander when the other side is a mob. However the other side may not be a mob, then we need a real commander. So if I am solo dropping, I generally command myself, though I will follow good advice.

Good call. A wise prince will pick intelligent advisors and allow only them to speak frankly, and only when he asks for their opinions. He should listen carefully, but make his own decisions and stick to them.

[Darth Futuza]

Kay Wolf, on 14 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

You and I would definitely be in serious disagreement over this. Various commanders deal with various types and combinations of Lances better than others. So, while that might go well for you, my ideal would be to have one Scout per Lance, with Heavies filling out Alpha, Mediums filling out Bravo, and Assaults filling out the balance of Charlie. That's not my only Lance type, however. My intent is to allow my Lance Leaders to build up their own Lance types, Company Commanders to build up their own Companies, etc., within my most basic framework for the Brigade.

No I totally see where you are coming for, I like both kinds of lances. It really just depends on the match. For a PUG match, I find it easiest if I can organize other lances by weight class to keep track of them.

Kay Wolf, on 16 January 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

will continue to do their own thing, without regard for anyone else, which is why, if I have the ability to do it, once Community Warfare Phase One is dropped on us, I will disallow Lone Wolves to fill holes in my ranks.

Just as a note to you: I'm a lone wolf just because I don't want to declare an allegiance at this point. I can be an excellent team player though. I may change my mind though depending on how community warfare works out exactly.

[Mycrus]

Use social engineering. ...

Command only if you are a 4 man

Never ever take drop command.... You are better off using chat.... Some pugs will not follow on the basis that you took command....

Give a 1 line order...

"All push B4"

Anything more complex than that and pugs won't follow. ...

After every command ask your 4man to acknowledge in chat with "rgr"...

Even the most stubborn pug will give pause when they see other pilots acknowledging orders