106 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Normal ppc should be 12 heat. maybe even 13. it's much too good right now. the min range of 90 means very little in most battles.

[FupDup]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 January 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Normal ppc should be 12 heat. maybe even 13. it's much too good right now. the min range of 90 means very little in most battles.

The problem with increasing the heat of the regular PPC is that it starts to overlap with the ERPPC...and since the ER lacks a min range, it might become better than the regular. And we can't really increase the heat on the ER version, because it doesn't see much use as it is (almost never more than 1 ERPPC on a build, and if you are carrying multiple PPCs they are usually regulars).

[Bagheera]

Bront, on 12 January 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

It makes absolutely no sense in their case though (Why does this iron slug do no damage prior to 60 meters with my GR?)

The gauss was a targeting issue, not a "no damage" issue. The weapon couldn't target within its min range in the old BT rules.

Edited by Bagheera, 12 January 2014 - 06:40 PM.

[darkchylde]

Curious - how many of you have actually played Battletech?

Cause the PPC deadzone - has absolutely nothing to do with this games balance - and the PPC was later
allowed to fire in the deadzone by disabling the inhibitor. However, this did have a dangerous drawback.


Taken from http://www.sarna.net...Field_Inhibitor

In the Tactical Handbook, a PPC Field Inhibitor could be disabled by a player before firing. This allowed the unit to fire a PPC at units inside the minimum range. The normal minimum range modifiers were then ignored. The to hit rolls were resolved as normal, but the controlling player had to roll 2D6 to determine if the PPC exploded due to feedback. If the target was 1 hex away, the firing unit had to roll a 10 or more to avoid the explosion. A target at 2 hexes away required a roll of 6 or higher, and a target 3 hexes away needed a roll of 3 or more. A successful roll indicated no damage occurred to the unit firing the PPC.
If the firing player failed to get the roll needed, the PPC was immediately destroyed and critical slots for the PPC were crossed off the record sheet. The firing unit also took ten points of damage to the internal structure of the location housing the PPC.

[Corvus Antaka]

FupDup, on 12 January 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

The problem with increasing the heat of the regular PPC is that it starts to overlap with the ERPPC...and since the ER lacks a min range, it might become better than the regular. And we can't really increase the heat on the ER version, because it doesn't see much use as it is (almost never more than 1 ERPPC on a build, and if you are carrying multiple PPCs they are usually regulars).

Well given the erppc is as rare as you claim, upping ppc heat should normalize things. erppc should be better than the regular one, and would make sniper builds heat heavier giving brawlers more room. normal PPC is much to effective at 10 heat vs 8.5 for an erlarge laser, the pinpoint dmg is too beneficial. at 12 heat both ppc versions would look more interesting, and the normal ppc would be tougher to use, encouraging lasers more.

It's either this or splash dmg, id prefer some more heat myself. though a 60/40 splash split could work as well. Not something I'm keen on myself.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 12 January 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Well given the erppc is as rare as you claim, upping ppc heat should normalize things. erppc should be better than the regular one, and would make sniper builds heat heavier giving brawlers more room. normal PPC is much to effective at 10 heat vs 8.5 for an erlarge laser, the pinpoint dmg is too beneficial. at 12 heat both ppc versions would look more interesting, and the normal ppc would be tougher to use, encouraging lasers more.

It's either this or splash dmg, id prefer some more heat myself. though a 60/40 splash split could work as well. Not something I'm keen on myself.

IMO, neither the standard nor the ER PPC should be better than the other. I'd prefer that each has their own individual areas of advantages and disadvantages (i.e. ERPPC better at extreme range but normal PPC better at mid-range due to heat).

[Corvus Antaka]

FupDup, on 12 January 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

IMO, neither the standard nor the ER PPC should be better than the other. I'd prefer that each has their own individual areas of advantages and disadvantages (i.e. ERPPC better at extreme range but normal PPC better at mid-range due to heat).

yeah. the better solution would be to step on tabeltop and make both the ERPPC and the PPC 15 heat. give the erppc the 90m min range, and the normal PPC no min range but the shorter long range.

but then again, that'd probably obselete the normal ppc, since hardly anyone wants to risk brawling at inside 90m too much. it certainly happens, but right now combined with an ac/20 the min range really means nothing.

if the PPC splashed 60/40 and the ballistics all double/quad shot, the laser would actually have more precision value, the gauss would be a more inticing choice, and the pinpoint dmg would be trickier. but then the splash would mean an arm shot could kill a sidetorso exposed XL engine, and that's where the question is "is it rly good for the game overall" is more important.

my personal choice would be to pull the normal PPC completely, that'd make it all a lot easier

[lsp]

I run dual ppc's and a ac20 with 14 DHS just fine.

[Cerberias]

They should change min range to 180 for PPC's but give it a linear dropoff (so at 90 they'll do 5 each). Then they could give PPC's a charge timer instead of the Gauss to make it a little harder to use, and reduce ERPPC heat down to 13.

[Mechteric]

Cerberias, on 12 January 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

They should change min range to 180 for PPC's but give it a linear dropoff (so at 90 they'll do 5 each). Then they could give PPC's a charge timer instead of the Gauss to make it a little harder to use, and reduce ERPPC heat down to 13.

Thats not how the minimum range works in the source material, their minimum range of 3 (90 meters) means that outside of 90 meters they have no problems at all. Its when inside of 90 that they become increasingly harder to hit with. Since that doesn't translate too well here they decided to just make it do no damage.

I'd actually rather it linearly do 0 damage down to say 30 or 45 meters, so you'd still have an area of zero damage but they can still do some at 85m or 60m.

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 12 January 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

PPCs are ideally a sniper weapon.

I had to stop after reading this! There are way to many Mechs that have been designed around PPCs as a main weapon that are front line brawlers for this to be true.

Warhammer, Marauder, Awesome, just to name a few.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 January 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Everyone is claiming PPC's are op because everyone uses them. But noone sees that the whole ballistic line is the issue. The short cooldown and the low heat makes them perfect to use together with PPCs.

PPCs are either backup weapons or are used to poptart. What tells us that? Only a symptom of the current overused glitches in the system: Low cooldown and therefore resulting high DPS on ballistics or Jumpjets that are too effective and have too little drawback.

PPCs don't need a 0 damage minrange. Other systems in the game that make them appear broken need a fix.

That is also the reason ******* NOTHING changed since their nerfbat nerf of PPCs.

In TT weapons cycles are meant to be 10 seconds and the weapons you use make that amount of damage OVER that time not instantly. It is ridiculous that an AC2 makes (almost) as much DPS as an AC20! Same goes for Heatsinks... DHS? R"D"HS would fit way better: Ridiculous "Double" Heat Sinks.

Currently weapons Cycles are at least 2.5 times faster. We have only doubled armour. In the end Mechs get destroyed faster in MWO than in TT (seen as realtime battles), considering the faster cycles simulate the hit chance of weapons in TT.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 January 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Mcgral18]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 January 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Everyone is claiming PPC's are op because everyone uses them. But noone sees that the whole ballistic line is the issue. The short cooldown and the low heat makes them perfect to use together with PPCs.

So in the end PPCs are either backup weapons or are used to poptart. What tells us that? Only a symtom of the current overused glitches in the system: Low cooldown and therefore resulting high DPS on ballistics or Jumpjets that are too effective and have too little drawback.

PPCs don't need a 0 damage minrange. Other systems in the game that make them appear broken need a fix.

That is also the reason ******* NOTHING changed since their nerfbat nerf of PPCs.

In TT weapons cycles are meant to be 10 seconds and the weapons you use make that amount of damage OVER that time not instantly. It is ridiculous that an AC2 makes (almost) as much DPS as an AC20! Same goes for Heatsinks... DHS? R"D"HS would fit way better: Ridiculous "Double" Heat Sinks.

Currently weapons Cycles are at least 2.5 times faster. We have only doubled armour. In the end Mechs get destroyed faster in MWO than in TT (seen as realtime battles), considering the faster cycles simulate the hit chance of weapons in TT.

Well, its an issue that stems from both PGIs interpretation of TT (keeping the heat and damage the same, but making them fire 2.5-20 times as fast) and then keeping dissipation the same, which leads to making heat neutral builds very impractical, and stock mechs with DHS absolutely useless when put up against something with DHS, also because the DHS mech has a much higher heat capacity.

If we compound this with the fact that ballistics and PPCs are pinpoint, but missiles and lasers have build in mechanics to spread damage, we get another tier of imbalance.

Heat for PPCs are fine, its the heat system and pinpoint mechanics that break them.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

I had to stop after reading this! There are way to many Mechs that have been designed around PPCs as a main weapon that are front line brawlers for this to be true.

Warhammer, Marauder, Awesome, just to name a few.

Its range provides it this capability as opposed to comparing it with something like a Small laser which would not be considered an ideal sniper weapon. This does not mean it cannot be used in closer combat but has proved it's effectiveness in comparison to other weapons as having a sniping capability.

Most Direct fire support arrangements of capability use a combination of ballistics using PPC and AC as a result.

The recognised king of the Meta by many being 2 UAC5, 2 PPC, 733C Highlander.

It's range and energy ballistic speed afford it these capabilities and make it an ideal choice for sniping.

The Large pulse laser is supposed to perform better for brawling due to its better heat and rate of fire. It's DPS is more but obviously you have to close to an effective range to use it. However even this suffers from its beam mechanic for focus fire.

It does not suprise me that people will choose PPC's then to use over other weapons that should be used as identified from lore that should be operating better in the likes of brawling roles. But this I suppose just helps to emphasise the overall dominance of ballistics use. But again you could not say the same for the LPL that you could not consider as an ideal sniping weapon.

This for me kind of sums up the problem we have in this game atm, where certain weapons have become Swiss army knives to use for all situations and other weapons sidelined as a result, emphasisng the overall dominance of ballistic use. This is not helpful to diversify choices with tech.

Edited by Noesis, 13 January 2014 - 06:47 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

With current values the normal PPC trumps all the lasers.

It would and should be very scary if a LPL boat gets within optimal range of a 4 normal PPC boat.

but unless he gets inside 90m, it's not hardly so scary.

uac/5 and ac/5 are both much too heat efficient, and I think this is their #1 issue right now, and what makes them the perfect gun for every situation, long or short range, they have tons of ammo, perfect range, fast recycle, and no heat.

ERLarge laser should outrange all but gauss & PPC. ballistics moving to a 2 shot & 4 shot model might help alleviate the pinpoint meta, and the regular PPC a bit hotter alongside hotter ac/5 & uac 5 would lower the infinite DPS of these mechs & combos currently they just run far too cool.

part of PGI's heat system of not real DHS & TT dissapaption was so that a 6 mlaser jenner doest rip through an atlas without ever feeling heat. hence too the fear of machine guns wiht no heat being OP. hence the gauss issues.

now ac/5 & uac 5 and ballistics are kind of at that place, the gun that fires endlessly even after youve hit 90% heat.

i cant fire 2/2 erppc and keep that going with 21 DHS. but if i take 2 ERPPC or cooler PPC i can fire 2 ac/5 uac/5 endlessly almost regardless of my heat.

so the 4 PPC/erppc stalker is brutally hard to use and hot. still a good mech though.

but the near same mech as a highlander with ac/5 vs ppc is godlike.

if heat dissapation put mechs with 21DHS where ballistics mechs are, it'd be balance. if that ups dps to much, instead heat & tuning must apply to ballistics to instead balance them effectively.

however, a massive part of the problem remains jumpjet design & implementation which perfectly synergizes with pinpoint dmg mechs. if pinpoint dmg ppc mechs had to expose themselves more lasers and other guns would have more room to play, but the perfect counter to a pinpoint jumpsniper is a pinpoint jumpsniper, not a laser mech or even a brawler, and this is a very significant issue.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 13 January 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 13 January 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Its range provides it this capability as opposed to comparing it with something like a Small laser which would not be considered an ideal sniper weapon. This does not mean it cannot be used in closer combat but has proved it's effectiveness in comparison to other weapons as having a sniping capability.

Most Direct fire support arrangements of capability use a combination of ballistics using PPC and AC as a result.

The recognised king of the Meta by many being 2 UAC5, 2 PPC, 733C Highlander.

It's range and energy ballistic speed afford it these capabilities and make it an ideal choice for sniping.

The Large pulse laser is supposed to perform better for brawling due to its better heat and rate of fire. It's DPS is more but obviously you have to close to an effective range to use it. However even this suffers from its beam mechanic for focus fire.

It does not suprise me that people will choose PPC's then to use over other weapons that should be used as identified from lore that should be operating better in the likes of brawling roles. But this I suppose just helps to emphasise the overall dominance of ballistics use. But again you could not say the same for the LPL that you could not consider as an ideal sniping weapon.

This for me kind of sums up the problem we have in this game atm, where certain weapons have become Swiss army knives to use for all situations and other weapons sidelined as a result, emphasisng the overall dominance of ballistic use. This is not helpful to diversify choices with tech.

The recognized BFG of energy weapons has always been the PPC... until the Heavy PPC was introduced.

Quote

Direct Fire Weapons
The fundamental mission of armor and other direct fire weapons is to close with and destroy the enemy. The ability to move, shoot, communicate, and provide armored protection is a decisive factor on the modern battlefield. In accomplishing its assigned missions, armor uses fire, maneuver, and shock effect, synchronized with other maneuver elements and with combat support (CS) and combat service support (CSS) assets. When properly supported, it is capable of conducting sustained operations against any sophisticated threat.

I highlighted three words that should have significant meaning to those always calling for Nerfs! Even if it is a game, enough damage needs to be allowed so we can still bring Shock into play as a weapon.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 January 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I highlighted three words that should have significant meaning to those always calling for Nerfs! Even if it is a game, enough damage needs to be allowed so we can still bring Shock into play as a weapon.

Does this mean I can taser those I don't like? If so +1 for this sentiment.

Min ranges are a drawback for some weapons. It's there as a trade-off. If you want PPCs and don't want min range then you use ER PPCs that run hotter. It's a trade-off, so yes PPCs still need a min range

[Xyroc]

No it is not needed ... I dont even use PPCs and they dont bother me

Edited by Beliall, 13 January 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[Xyroc]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 January 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Normal ppc should be 12 heat. maybe even 13. it's much too good right now. the min range of 90 means very little in most battles.

Sooo your really just wanting to nerf them to where you dont see anyone using them I get it ........... ........... ......... .........

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 January 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

The recognized BFG of energy weapons has always been the PPC... until the Heavy PPC was introduced.

I highlighted three words that should have significant meaning to those always calling for Nerfs! Even if it is a game, enough damage needs to be allowed so we can still bring Shock into play as a weapon.

That's your best answer, Direct Fire support should be the biggest and the baddest, end of story, all other roles go home?

And I don't think small moves in the game to allow other roles to have opportunities will end up with direct fire support losing their impact or suppressive capabilities.

It has been said many times that in order to retain the elements of game play associated with fire support doesn't mean that by losing it's dominance and allowing others more opportunity and effectiveness means that they in turn lose their role in the process. In fact others have gone out of their way for the interests of gaming balance to say that is not an intentional outcome for balance changes. So defending that is just a position of fear imho.

The LPL on paper should out perform the PPC at the ranges it is intended for. But it doesn't due to FLD and beam mechanics. The PPC already out ranges it giving it much more suppression capabilities as a result. That is apparent due to this range disparity for similar damage output. Yet you seemingly continue to argue that if a Mech were able to close range then the PPC should still be the more dominant weapon, then why have the LPL in the arsenal at all then?

There is no game play balance in this kind of approach, especially if by design you eliminate tech choices altogether.