4831 replies to this topic

[kesuga7]

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

So there's been public mention on variant threads and various other doodads (some reddit leak). Source.
Supposedly it will include two new Locusts variants. Anyone got ideas here? From memory (it's been a few days since I read it), one has 2 center torso laser mounts. One's got 4 missiles. That might be the same one. Then another has 6 energy hardpoints exclusively on the arms.

Thoughts?
(See, I can be on topic too.)

6 energy is only going to allow either 3 mids and 3 small laser with 10-11 doubles if you want a near max engine
either way getting in so close with a locust is usually a bad idea/risky - small lasers
so yeah actually using the 6 energy without crazy heat is tuff

though if you want a near max engine on other locust you will need to do
2 mids - 2 srm 2 - 200 ammo

the locust 3S wouldn't be soo bad if it just had another spare tonn for ammo because it runs out really quick for me :|

4 srm 2 -300 srm ammo - xl 180 - its advantage is its quickfiring missisles which can work better against bigger mechs when you are aiming for their backs and circling around them

Edited by kesuga7, 14 April 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Koniving]

aniviron, on 14 April 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

I wish there were somewhere to make this seen, writ large in public like Homeless Bill's thread used to be. Have you made a dedicated thread about this that I managed to miss? Either way, you should post/repost it once we get general discussion back. I know I've said I liked this idea in the past, but I really do think this is pretty much the best balance suggestion I've ever seen on the forums. This, combined with a hitbox tweak (smaller CTs! Similarly sized sides! Bigger arms! Everyone gets to be how the Stalker/Cent used to be!) would make such a huge difference.

I also think it would help lore-wise a bit. Right now we're slated to get the first mechwarrior game where Battlemechs are more customizable than Omnimechs; I think the restrictions placed on the clan omnis will be good in the long run, but I'd like to see battlemechs get the same sorts of restrictions to help emphasize their roles.

Dedicated? No. It slips in various places to gain interest to sample responses to it. I have worked out the little bugs in it only recently. Now that I have PGI's armor stats on the Clan mechs, speed stats, etc., (PGI's engines do NOT always go the actual speed of tabletop's ratings so TT's mech stats aren't valid) I will be using that to help measure what this will do in comparison to the mechs that can't change engine sizes or armor types.

Feedback on it so far.

Spoiler

Generally of those who responded to the ideas (either by like or saying something), about 80% who spoke up also gave the post a like. (There's a lot more likes than responses mind you). Those who did not, expressed concerns about increasing time to kill (evidently killing someone instantly at the risk of being killed instantly is "fun"), 'nerfing' Jenners (but the engine concept wasn't there at the time), not being able to use the Jagermech to brawl with twin AC/20s, or concerned about what happens to Trebuchets or hero-mechs.

Now, some of those who did like the idea also expressed minor concerns.
*What happens to Trebuchets (still thinking on this one).
*Inconsistent armor values in Jenners with the K being hurt. Turns out, MWO didn't even give the stock Jenner K the stock armor value (same problem with the Raven 3-L). MWO's system rounds armor points leading to false 'armor values'. Determining the armor tonnage and then rounding it accordingly has fixed this problem. Jenner K and D will have the same armor values.

*One noted that Commandos and Cicadas share armor values, yet a huge size difference and identical speed caps in MWO. I went on to explain that internal structure would not be touched (there is no feasible way to improve or degrade maximum structure health and that's universal no matter what). (As it turns out, the internal structure on the Cicada is in fact higher than the mech's armor anyway, so my solution was right on the money there). Then, with an additional study on the engines versus engine limits, I've noticed there's NO consistency in how it's done, so I went about standardizing engine limits. After that I came up with this very simple, solid solution.
If you compare the Commando and Cicada, they do have the same armor values. However there is a huge difference in structure values. Comparing current Cicada and Commando stats, the Commando universally has superior turning, acceleration and stopping ability. What it does not have is speed after standardizing the engine rating limits above stock. Commando at stock is slower, and at max, is slower. In fact the Cicada becomes the second fastest mech in the game (compared to the Flea while writing, Cicada remains second fastest although the Flea can surpass the Cicada in speed by using MASC assuming PGI uses canon values. But we know better).

*The other concern was how hero mechs fit in.

You seen the example with Huginn.
Dragon Slayer won't fit. At all. Absolutely nothing canon about its armor design. La Malinche kinda pushes it but it's well within tolerance. All other heroes fit either perfectly or within tolerance.
Example: Muromets is 13.5 tons of armor exactly. It fits just fine. Cataphract 4X is listed as having 14 tons of armor, but TT and MWO's max armor won't allow more than 13.6 tons of armor. I can either round this down, or we can put it to 14 tons as it says. Either way the Cataphract 3D will have less max armor than the 4X and Muromets. The 2X, previously unfavorable, is now literally the middle ground in Cataphract armor.
Oxide has identical armor to Jenners D and K.
Jester is slightly above other Catapults at 12.5 tons of armor.
Firebrand has identical armor to another Jager.
Wang, Fang, Flame, Golden Boy, etc. are all in tune.

Interesting note: The Pretty Baby and Dragon Slayer have identical armor. PB and Awesome 9M have 15.5 tons of armor. The Dragon Slayer is nearly 100 points more armor than any other victor in existence, and compared to some more than 170 points more armor. Tolerance right now is set at no more than (2 tons = 64 standard) above the next highest stock, or (4 tons = 128 standard) above the lowest 'stock' variant. Beyond that seems a bit overpowered, given that non-pay ones can not reach those armor levels after this.

Now, just so you know this is how the two common 'big CT' problems are. Pictures included.

Spoiler

Note I didn't get into the pelvis part.

Koniving, on 13 April 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

While true, there's a huge difference between the Dragon and the Catapult syndromes.
Allow me a few minutes to demonstrate...
In both cases here, the uncolored part of the head is the cockpit or an approximation.
Dragon Syndrome. (Bright blue = CT. The violet = ST).

Ain't no missing that belly!

Catapult Syndrome. (Again, bright blue CT, violet ST.)


The Catapult side torsos form an "L" shape, with the CT forming its own L shape. Whoever the heck did the hitbox must've just finished playing Tetris.

The Awesome on the other hand is more of a bug (it's easier to hit the CT from the side by shooting the side, than it is to shoot the CT from the front by shooting the front. I'm dead serious. ST hitboxes from the front are ST, but from the side, the front 1/4th of the STs are 'CTs').

Anyway I'll do something big when it's all ready with exact numbers. Gotta find the engine formula again. That'll let me put up the top speeds with and without speed tweak at max engines.

[Koniving]

Kin3ticX, on 14 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

every time i glance past this thread name i think it says "The Underwater Locust"

Underwater can be fun.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Good way to hide for ambush or to wait out a 11-0 stomp? Get in over one's head (that's a joke, you see) and shut down.

[Koniving]

I'd prefer that instead of waiting the 11-0 stomp (unless victory is assured by capture), players use it to ambush their enemies one at a time.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

A company of Water Locusts? Bet!

[Fang01]

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

So there's been public mention on variant threads and various other doodads (some reddit leak). Source.
Supposedly it will include two new Locusts variants. Anyone got ideas here? From memory (it's been a few days since I read it), one has 2 center torso laser mounts. One's got 4 missiles. That might be the same one. Then another has 6 energy hardpoints exclusively on the arms.

Thoughts?
(See, I can be on topic too.)

IIRC it will be 1E and 1M

[aniviron]

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Underwater can be fun.

Not sure how people can talk about the underwater locust without referencing Theb33f's video on the matter!

[Koniving]

He keeps getting ideas from me. (Not all but some). Then his videos get more famous 'cause they get more work put into them.
It makes me sad.

[aniviron]

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

He keeps getting ideas from me. (Not all but some). Then his videos get more famous 'cause they get more work put into them.
It makes me sad.

Aw. :[ Maybe you could just make a filter that changes your voice to his? I think the big draw of Theb33f's videos is his sexy sexy voice.

[Koniving]

Perhaps. But that accent can be difficult to understand. Besides, the day that lots of women start watching youtube videos about MWO is the day that PGI's building floods with money. I'll wait til I see PGI work a bit more before I get "sexier" with my voice.

[Gasoline]

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Dedicated? No. It slips in various places to gain interest to sample responses to it. I have worked out the little bugs in it only recently. Now that I have PGI's armor stats on the Clan mechs, speed stats, etc., (PGI's engines do NOT always go the actual speed of tabletop's ratings so TT's mech stats aren't valid) I will be using that to help measure what this will do in comparison to the mechs that can't change engine sizes or armor types.

Feedback on it so far.

Spoiler

Generally of those who responded to the ideas (either by like or saying something), about 80% who spoke up also gave the post a like. (There's a lot more likes than responses mind you). Those who did not, expressed concerns about increasing time to kill (evidently killing someone instantly at the risk of being killed instantly is "fun"), 'nerfing' Jenners (but the engine concept wasn't there at the time), not being able to use the Jagermech to brawl with twin AC/20s, or concerned about what happens to Trebuchets or hero-mechs.

Now, some of those who did like the idea also expressed minor concerns.
*What happens to Trebuchets (still thinking on this one).
*Inconsistent armor values in Jenners with the K being hurt. Turns out, MWO didn't even give the stock Jenner K the stock armor value (same problem with the Raven 3-L). MWO's system rounds armor points leading to false 'armor values'. Determining the armor tonnage and then rounding it accordingly has fixed this problem. Jenner K and D will have the same armor values.

*One noted that Commandos and Cicadas share armor values, yet a huge size difference and identical speed caps in MWO. I went on to explain that internal structure would not be touched (there is no feasible way to improve or degrade maximum structure health and that's universal no matter what). (As it turns out, the internal structure on the Cicada is in fact higher than the mech's armor anyway, so my solution was right on the money there). Then, with an additional study on the engines versus engine limits, I've noticed there's NO consistency in how it's done, so I went about standardizing engine limits. After that I came up with this very simple, solid solution.
If you compare the Commando and Cicada, they do have the same armor values. However there is a huge difference in structure values. Comparing current Cicada and Commando stats, the Commando universally has superior turning, acceleration and stopping ability. What it does not have is speed after standardizing the engine rating limits above stock. Commando at stock is slower, and at max, is slower. In fact the Cicada becomes the second fastest mech in the game (compared to the Flea while writing, Cicada remains second fastest although the Flea can surpass the Cicada in speed by using MASC assuming PGI uses canon values. But we know better).

*The other concern was how hero mechs fit in.

You seen the example with Huginn.
Dragon Slayer won't fit. At all. Absolutely nothing canon about its armor design. La Malinche kinda pushes it but it's well within tolerance. All other heroes fit either perfectly or within tolerance.
Example: Muromets is 13.5 tons of armor exactly. It fits just fine. Cataphract 4X is listed as having 14 tons of armor, but TT and MWO's max armor won't allow more than 13.6 tons of armor. I can either round this down, or we can put it to 14 tons as it says. Either way the Cataphract 3D will have less max armor than the 4X and Muromets. The 2X, previously unfavorable, is now literally the middle ground in Cataphract armor.
Oxide has identical armor to Jenners D and K.
Jester is slightly above other Catapults at 12.5 tons of armor.
Firebrand has identical armor to another Jager.
Wang, Fang, Flame, Golden Boy, etc. are all in tune.

Interesting note: The Pretty Baby and Dragon Slayer have identical armor. PB and Awesome 9M have 15.5 tons of armor. The Dragon Slayer is nearly 100 points more armor than any other victor in existence, and compared to some more than 170 points more armor. Tolerance right now is set at no more than (2 tons = 64 standard) above the next highest stock, or (4 tons = 128 standard) above the lowest 'stock' variant. Beyond that seems a bit overpowered, given that non-pay ones can not reach those armor levels after this.

Now, just so you know this is how the two common 'big CT' problems are. Pictures included.

Spoiler

Note I didn't get into the pelvis part.

The Awesome on the other hand is more of a bug (it's easier to hit the CT from the side by shooting the side, than it is to shoot the CT from the front by shooting the front. I'm dead serious. ST hitboxes from the front are ST, but from the side, the front 1/4th of the STs are 'CTs').

Anyway I'll do something big when it's all ready with exact numbers. Gotta find the engine formula again. That'll let me put up the top speeds with and without speed tweak at max engines.

That are some pretty solid ideas. You already wasted a good amount of brain fluid on this. But some chassis also need to be rescaled. Some of those Mechs are way too tall (Trebuchet, Quickdraw, I'm looking at you), some are a little too wide (Centurion, Awesome).

The issue with the Cat hitbox is actually related to the positioning of the ST hardpoints. If you take the C1 you can easily see that the energy hardpoint forms along the lower part of the hitbox. If I remember correctly, the hitbox was more rounded during the closed beta, which lead to complaints about the ST hitbox being too easy to hit. Same for the dragon, part of the belly-sides were part of the ST afair.

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'd prefer that instead of waiting the 11-0 stomp (unless victory is assured by capture), players use it to ambush their enemies one at a time.

Though this can easily get you flamed at. Had that multiple times: "Just get that over with" was the most kindly response I earned.

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

He keeps getting ideas from me. (Not all but some). Then his videos get more famous 'cause they get more work put into them.
It makes me sad.

A copy is just that. When I see some 'famous' videos on YouTube I sometimes think it's not worth being famous at all.

Koniving, on 14 April 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Perhaps. But that accent can be difficult to understand. Besides, the day that lots of women start watching youtube videos about MWO is the day that PGI's building floods with money. I'll wait til I see PGI work a bit more before I get "sexier" with my voice.

The amount of sarcasm in here is too damn high.

[Buckminster]

The issue will be getting PGI on board with it, because making such a drastic change will "alienate players". A lot of very vocal players want the extreme level of customization, and if anything are frustrated by how "limited" it is.

But, speaking of Locusts... I present the Narcust. I did this for S&Gs, and it actually turned out to be a very fun way to play. Even while pugging, it gives me a goal other than "kill everything" (which is difficult in a locust). I like it better than TAG too, since it's more of a hit and run delivery. Hanging around to keep your TAG on someone is often lethal. I finally managed my 10 assist achieve with it.

[FEK315]

Maybe this is posted but check dis 3m out...
4 DHS
XL170
1xERLG
1xML
2xSML
1XArtillery Strike
ADV Zoom
Endo
Ferro

Bros this little number is a nasty pest.
Long range, they can't seem to find you and if they do a fast slight move to the left or right will dodge any fire coming your way.
I stay in zoom and "rock" back and forth, by setting the throttle to 4 or 6 then turning my leg direction to the left or right and slowly move one way then the other. Preferably one has a bolder or wall to use as a shield.

Try to be inconstant in your frequency and direction, maybe even go diagonal. The best situation is if the enemy is busy fending off other mechs, this will give you the opportunity to be ignored and score open shots of full blast power.

Short range, I got the speed shots with the SMLs and one ML. This combo seems to run cool but it is intimidating enough to chase away other lights, but try not to chase them down, fire at them from a distance.

I use a joystick but when it comes time for landing the sniper shots my mouse dials in the meat with deadly accuracy.

So besides the fun this mech offers it awards big time spotting points and damage points.
Last but not least is the Artillery Strike, it is the icing on the cake for that mech that is using the same tactic that you are. Placing one good strike will have them running away and giving up on you. Pobrecito, HE HE HE

I just had to tell you Locust Bros about this.
BTW I am getting close to eliteing out my Locusts WOOOT

That Narcust sounds fun!

Edited by FEK315, 16 April 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Wildstreak]

aniviron, on 14 April 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Aw. :[ Maybe you could just make a filter that changes your voice to his? I think the big draw of Theb33f's videos is his sexy sexy voice.

Sexy female voice would make competition for sexy male voice given larger numbers of male gamers that probably watch videos.

[FEK315]

Guys really My BoltThrower Locust is fantastic!!!! really I am averaging about 800 damage a match. This dialing in the snipe with my mouse is just the best.
I just gotta say I am jealous of myself in this sniper Locust it is perfect for support!

[IraqiWalker]

FEK315, on 19 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Guys really My BoltThrower Locust is fantastic!!!! really I am averaging about 800 damage a match. This dialing in the snipe with my mouse is just the best.
I just gotta say I am jealous of myself in this sniper Locust it is perfect for support!

Good on you mate. Sounds like you're having fun.

[Arc Viper]

I love the locust 3-M. Instead of all small pulse lasers I drop to a 180 to get near max armor, then put a medPulse in the center torso. I only put 5 points in armor in the head because it's free points. You're not going to headshot a moving locust. Here is an example of a match I used this build in today.

[IraqiWalker]

Arc Viper, on 29 April 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

I love the locust 3-M. Instead of all small pulse lasers I drop to a 180 to get near max armor, then put a medPulse in the center torso. I only put 5 points in armor in the head because it's free points. You're not going to headshot a moving locust. Here is an example of a match I used this build in today.

Spoiler

Nice, that's an interesting set up. I tend to always go max engine, mainly because of the fact that I want as much speed as possible.

[Arc Viper]

IraqiWalker, on 29 April 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Nice, that's an interesting set up. I tend to always go max engine, mainly because of the fact that I want as much speed as possible.

It was a hard decision to make, but it only makes sense after you free up all of that tonnage in the head that is going to waste if you don't make use of it. I tried this build with a max engine and you have to sacrifice too much armor. All and all this build completely outperforms the full splaser build. The secret is knowing when to choose your battles. Wedge yourself between a fatty and a wall and you can just go to town on them.