61 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

Rhaythe, on 15 January 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Scrap the "INCOMING MISSILE" warning. Implement a "RADAR LOCK" warning. Different, more subtle tone that goes off whenever someone just has a lock on you. That's pretty much how aircraft systems work these days anyway (or at least they did in the 'classical' dogfighting era).

It's enough to give warning that something bad could happen, but doesn't actually tip the shooter's hand when it does. Added bonus: mechs out of ammo can still intimidate unsuspecting enemies.

Do you remember when BB was saying "Warning: Targeted" every time someone targeted you? It made scouting impossible and everyone hearing the phrase would run to cover pronto.

[Rhaythe]

Yes, but I mean only lock. Not target. IE: hovering your cursor over the mech until missile-lock is achieved.

[Barantor]

Lets make some money for PGI.

Make the missile warning message a module that you have to equip and can buy for c bills or MC.

Lots won't take it and it will give LRMs a slight buff, those that do take it will have better protection from LRMs.

The speed with the arc was never a problem with me as much as mechs knowing they were coming and already moving to cover when my volleys were half way there.

[Roadbeer]

I'm liking this conversation.
Personally, I think that speed/damage with LRMs are okish, I'd like a little splash damage added.
Huge fan of the "No AMS, No warning" idea and a "radar lock" module

Interesting side note.
I'm starting to notice that it's almost become Pavlovian the way players are responding to missiles when it comes to taking cover, and that if they're not hit within a couple seconds, the leave cover... making the 700m+ shots pretty effective

[CygnusX7]

What would be great is that if I ran AMS without ammo I'd still get the warning.

[Destoroyah]

Another problem with LRMs is the missle tracking which is why only the smaller launchers are viable. The problem with the lrm 15s and 20s is that even with artemis and tag you are looking at 25% of you missles almost always missing and against a moving target that percentage goes up to 1/3s to half and even 2/3s missing if a target moves in certain ways and this is against assault targets in the wide open. These percentages are unacceptable. The reason why so many miss with the bigger launchers is cause the missles travel in a huge blob and never really converges on target at time of impact so most of the fringe missles just go right past the mech and slam into the ground. The smaller launchers travel in much more condensed swarms so they are much more likely to hit with most the missles cause those missles are aiming for the centeral mass. The tracking should also be improved so you can hit fast targets. If I got a light mech say tagged and am firing artemis I would expect around 50% of my missles to hit not a measly 10 percent of them.

I think the missle speed needs to be increased some and the damage reduced a little to compensate.

Edited by Destoroyah, 15 January 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Khobai]

the incoming missile warning isnt the problem.

if a teammate is properly spotting for you, your lrms are pretty much going to hit no matter what, unless the target hides behind a building. but part of lrming is picking targets that dont have cover.

the main reason lrms suck is because youre dependent on teammates for locks, and teammates cant be depended on.

ECM being broken as all hell is the other reason.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Well in my view those with no skills want to increase the effectiveness of the most no skill weapon in the game. LRMs are just fine for the intended purpose and the only skill required is effective team deployment and use. If properly positioned and coordinated LRMs can be used to devastating effect. Thing is even amongst premades teams I rarely see them put in to practice. If you study Russian artillery tactics you may get a hint at it. Its all in positioning and coordination and timed fire. Just pressing R cheeking range and letting fly doesn't cut it.

http://www.allworldw...by-Richert.html

[Barantor]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

the incoming missile warning isnt the problem.

if a teammate is properly spotting for you, your lrms are pretty much going to hit no matter what, unless the target hides behind a building. but part of lrming is picking targets that dont have cover.

the main reason lrms suck is because youre dependent on teammates for locks, and teammates cant be depended on.

ECM being broken as all hell is the other reason.

If you aren't spotting enemies for yourself sometimes you are not realizing the weapon at it's potential.

Lots of missiles don't hit if you fire indirect with others spotting. Get below 500m and target them yourself and you will see more damage with LRMs.

LRMs are only low skill if you use them like artillery and hide behind a hill the whole match. Usually those folks also can't handle a spider coming and messing with them either.....

[Khobai]

Quote

If you aren't spotting enemies for yourself sometimes you are not realizing the weapon at it's potential.

if you have to spot the enemies yourself, youre not realizing its potential anyway... because you can only really spot for yourself at 500m or less, which is half the range the weapon is supposed to be effective at.

LRMs are fine < 500m. The problem is theyre supposed to be fine out to 1000m, and they just dont work at that range because of ECM, lack of spotting, and slow missile speed.

Edited by Khobai, 15 January 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[Pjwned]

Skyfaller, on 14 January 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Actually no. Both speed, refire rate and damage are fine.

The problem lies in the idiotic missile warning message.

Only mechs with AMS should receive this warning.

That would be stupid as hell, if you have an indirect fire weapon that locks on then it's extremely unfair to expect somebody to watch the sky while moving around and fighting just because somebody can sit behind a hill and hurl missiles at you from well beyond your reach behind cover while they all but automatically hit.

There are a number of more elegant solutions than removing the missile warning without AMS, which would also make AMS far too good and screw over mechs that don't have it.

The one way I could see it being even close to fair is that if there's no warning then missiles would need to be spaced out and move significantly slower, even slower than they do now, and that's still a poor idea.

[Joseph Mallan]

Barantor, on 15 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

LRMs are only low skill if you use them like artillery and hide behind a hill the whole match. Usually those folks also can't handle a spider coming and messing with them either.....

And et Artillery is hailed as the king of the battlefield... so I guess it's good to be king... isn't it! haters gotta hate.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Mudhutwarrior, on 15 January 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Well in my view those with no skills want to increase the effectiveness of the most no skill weapon in the game. LRMs are just fine for the intended purpose and the only skill required is effective team deployment and use. If properly positioned and coordinated LRMs can be used to devastating effect. Thing is even amongst premades teams I rarely see them put in to practice. If you study Russian artillery tactics you may get a hint at it. Its all in positioning and coordination and timed fire. Just pressing R cheeking range and letting fly doesn't cut it.

http://www.allworldw...by-Richert.html

Would be nice if they did work that way. You then have to hold lock for the whole flight time, while out in the open 'cos you have to do your own spotting in PUGs. My 2 x ALRM15 SP used to be a reasonable mech to use for damaging mechs for others to finish or finishing off damaged mechs. Now even at 300m too many don't hit at all. You give up a lot of weight to fit them on a medium and then people say that they shouldn't deal damage? Where is the lack of skill compared to using an AC and firing when the crosshairs are on target, job done? Firing indirect is a luxury only normally available to premades
Apart from Streaks all missiles need a bit more love, especially if we want to use them on mediums and lights.

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

And et Artillery is hailed as the king of the battlefield... so I guess it's good to be king... isn't it! haters gotta hate.

Nope - its Queen of the Battlefiield - Frederick the Great.

[focuspark]

LRMs should be at least 25%, if not 50%, faster. Out running a missile is stupid, mount AMS.

The warning should only happen 2 seconds before the missiles make contact or not at all. A better warning should be a module for those who want it.

LRM should use the SSRM bone connect logic. TAG should clump the missiles where the TAG is hitting the target,

LRM should not be blinded by ECM, just slower to lock on and maybe 20% auto-miss their target.

Artemis should be something applied to the launcher (and ammo) and not the mech. Artemis and non-Artemis should allowed to be mixed.

[MadcatX]

focuspark, on 15 January 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Artemis should be something applied to the launcher (and ammo) and not the mech. Artemis and non-Artemis should allowed to be mixed.

I believe that's in the works

[East Indy]

The more I think and the more I play, I find that we value LRMs through the lens of a missile boat, placing the weapon under an all-or-nothing evaluation. I love bringing out my 8R for LRM-60 hijinks, but it's in my multi-range 'Mechs like optimized-stock DRG and TDR where LRMs feel perfect. They give me early, indirect fire during most of a match. I also find the warning helpful because of the psychological effect; players are wary of being caught in a cloudburst and will concede positions to prevent it.

Bottom line, LRMs are in a pretty good place.

Edited by East Indy, 15 January 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Ngamok]

Niether. They are fine as is. It makes the LRMs harder to use with the speed we have now. Makes people who use them have to be sure they are firing at something not hiding behind buildings or walls or hills. And if you want to exclude yourself from a closeup fight, have to be sure that what you are shooting at in a distance is going to stay open for the duration of the flight the missiles will take to get there.

I use mine within the 400 to 700 meter range. I won't usually go over this because I want to hit what I shoot at. But I will sometimes run in closer if I am running cool and I want to make sure what I am hitting at dies faster or if my team is pushing hard.

[Krinkov]

I like the idea of only AMS carriers getting the missile warning message. I would like to see LRMs ripple fire. That way they would have better hit detection and there would be no clustering advantage from taking the smaller launchers.

[Prezimonto]

Skyfaller, on 14 January 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Careful what you wish for. Early beta the LRM was almost like this. They hit the legs, head and the arms just as regularly as the torso. Why was it adjusted to torso-mostly? Mechs getting legged or losing most of their weapons (arms in many mechs) after just a salvo or two from an LRM boat. Remember, the arms have the least armor and legs have no front/back so LRMs will whittle the leg armor off quickly & detonate ammo in there with the first salvo that hits the unarmored leg. Plus the very high incidence of head-shot kills from the very first LRM salvo.



Reducing missiles per salvo and increasing damage per missile only makes them deadlier as per the LRM5 example of it hitting the CT with 3 out of 5 missiles.

AMS itself does not need to be tweaked at all. Only make it so that the AMS installed is the only means to get a missile warning and give it a pilot module upgrade skill. First upgrade increases range to 250m (from 200), the second increases it to 300m.

ok it does need to be tweaked so it fires only at missiles within its LOS but thats just a fix more than an improvement tweak.

I actually think bone targeting is a good idea. You can weight the numbers (they already do this) for which bones get targeted, If it's really nasty you can decrease the damage a little bit. In closed beta, was that before they double the armor numbers? I was before I joined up as far as I can remember. If it was before armor numbers were doubled then things might be okay. Also remember mechs are much more customizable now and you can always find the weight to max armor if try these days (now that upgrades are in the game).

Edited by Prezimonto, 15 January 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Pjwned, on 15 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

That would be stupid as hell, if you have an indirect fire weapon that locks on then it's extremely unfair to expect somebody to watch the sky while moving around and fighting just because somebody can sit behind a hill and hurl missiles at you from well beyond your reach behind cover while they all but automatically hit.

There are a number of more elegant solutions than removing the missile warning without AMS, which would also make AMS far too good and screw over mechs that don't have it.

The one way I could see it being even close to fair is that if there's no warning then missiles would need to be spaced out and move significantly slower, even slower than they do now, and that's still a poor idea.

Which mechs can't take AMS?

Fine...if you want to make it fair, give a warning when an enemy mech has a reticule over any part of your mech. That way, you get a warning if you're targeted for direct fire also.

Better?