161 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

Flying Judgement, on 17 January 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

one of the reasons i dont play in a group in these day is because i dont like stomping its just borring a GG should last for 8-14 minute unable to tell whos going to win till the last man. I like to discourage any action what may decrease the number of these games.

Then you should embrace 2-12 using the Elo Matchmaker with Tonnage Limits, the closer the teams are matched the longer the game will get.

I have more close games when I drop with my lance then when I pug. Increase the teamwork on both sides and increase the survivability of both teams, bringing tactics and cohesion back into most matches.

I do like your idea to pick from fellow faction pilots to fill the teams up.

You must remember there was no Elo during the old PUG stomping days. New variables make the 2-12 more viable, desired even.

[Amsro]

Flying Judgement, on 17 January 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

1 i dont want to wait 12-40 minute for a game when i have 1 or 2hour to play.

No one else does either , that's why the 12vs12 is a ghost town. Hense the need to regroup the player base.

2 i know around 150 who i playing with and i like to increas this number and know more.

Great you know 150, how can you not want to be able to drop in any size group with whoever happens to be on at the same time from your 150?

3 as any unit gets bigger and bigger its more and more likely that un wanted ppl gets in the group and i simply dont feel the need to listen these ppl.

Then don't play with the people you don't get along with, the main goal is fun.

4 my pug games are relatively even i can carry hard and get a good game or get some insnely great games and ocasonal stomps. I rarley sufering from bad matches. wierd i know probably im the only one

Sounds like you do enjoy having matched 4 mans on either team. You just get to be a pug in that balanced match.

5 the ppl i know and invite me to play have different experience and elo wheter a lot lower or a lot higher completely upseting the balance of the matchmaker and i have horrible stompy games to a point i prefer not to go in a team

This is a true flaw of the current 4 man the group leader Elo is the group Elo. Can be a new class for some players.

6 in a 12 vs 12 envitoment i cant have any freedom i must play the cheezz of the mounth or we all die and im dead borred of snipeing. i was snipeing over 5 mounth and im done with it.

"Cheeze" or "Meta" builds will be in every game always, they are just easier not always better. 8 Carrylanders can't happen with tonnage limits.

7 i want to run around in my awessome. locust or dragonand haveing 6 small laser and an AC2 LBX10 combo in my battlemaster without some one teling me these are so useless why dont u bring a victor or a highlander?

Again if your team mates are harassing you likely you need to find to people to play the game with. Awesomes can be in the right hands.

8 some one teling me what camo or color should i have. i bought these things so i can use them they werent cheap.

Wow, again team choice, if your in a strict group and that's not your thing then find a more relaxed group. Full freedom is my choice.

9 i love playing co-op

2-12 is as co-op as it gets.

10 no real goals what we could achive its just dosent makes me feel the need to seriously participate in a unit and build my own company and hire more folks

Even when there are goals you will still need to be able to work as a team to fulfill them. That's much harder as a PUG.

I think your just remembering 2-8 pug stomping and seeing red with the idea something similar will be back, when without a doubt it will be much different with Elo + Tonnage.

Edited by Amsro, 17 January 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[TygerLily]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

You say this like I would be upset by it? I am here to play as part of a 12 man team. As a PUG I am stuck as a individual in a group of 11 other individuals. I want 12 on 12 action that has a mix of PUG an full teams. Keep me on m toes so I don't become accustom to always facing "my equals".

I wasn't accusing you of anything. Sorry if you felt like I was being antagonizing, I wasn't aiming to be.

I was just saying that: near-perfect, non-grouped sync dropping among 6 people would essentially the same as having 6 people grouped and dropping. Why go through the bother of not increasing group drop limit and instead using the "pull from your friends list first" algorithm when they are basically the same.

[LastPaladin]

Zerberus, on 16 January 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

And here`S the error in your logic: If you`Re pugstomping round after rounf after round after round, your Elo scores are going UP , and you soon won`t see any newbies anymore... but keep spreading the fear and that job at Fox News will soon be yours.

I think this would be true if there was a healthy playerbase so that Elo could function well, but I don't think that is currently the case.

[Aluminumfoiled]

The team game argument falls a bit flat with limit of 4 with comms out of 12. Or even 6 or 8. If it's not 12 mans it's not truly team play. Or not what it should be.

I still see the lack of team VOIP as PGI's biggest error. Bad at it's best and destructive at it's worst.

Deathlike, on 17 January 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

.............

The biggest #1 problem of integrated VOIP is trolling. Y

Also remember that not all players speak English. This is another factor to consider.

I'd rather have in-game voice/chat macros... at least that would improve communication.

Yes there will be some trolling but I don't think there will be very much really. At whatever my Elo is i see little trolling behavior and much focus on winning. Text jokes prematch, some are pretty funny, but when the screen clears it's stomping time. I don't even see the "WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW" much anymore. Mute would cure it and not be needed much I think. At most levels of play hopefully. Could be wrong but hmmm.

Now the language barrier is insolvable I guess. Low percentage affected overall I believe compared to the total who understand enough to get by.

In-game macros? You peak my interest. How would that work, Teamspeak macro?

With in-game VOIP, Text tutorials would be enough. (I would like this now to track changes) The game would much more dynamic and the level of the game would increase across the board. Probably too late for it now.

edit: Jeez, just figured out what you meant by macro I think. Pre-recorded audio and txt msgs?

Edited by MicroVent, 17 January 2014 - 03:18 PM.

[Deathlike]

MicroVent, on 17 January 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

In-game macros? You peak my interest. How would that work, Teamspeak macro?

With in-game VOIP, Text tutorials would be enough. (I would like this now to track changes) The game would much more dynamic and the level of the game would increase across the board. Probably too late for it now.

edit: Jeez, just figured out what you meant by macro I think. Pre-recorded audio and txt msgs?

Yes, that. The audio part is not the most important, but you need text based commands that you can point out to other players (enhanced by improved minimap-HUD indicators). Having the ability to customize the default text for languages would also be optimal (as in, you can customize what you see based on the message/number sequence given, allowing for a person that is fluent in a different language like German to read "Danke" instead of "Thank You" for instance).

[mekabuser]

Roland, on 16 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

You mean the one that never left? When they instituted the nonsensical 4 man limit, there was absolutely no reduction in the number of people complaining about how they lost due to premades beating them with hax to the max. The 4 man limit achieved absolutely none of its intended goals, and drive away thousands of players.

Roland. I dig just about everything you say, but ill disagree here.
Let me start by saying I am all for everything that groups want and i completely understand their need. Its also evident that the move from anything to 4 man did indeed put a HUGE dent in the group playerbase.

That being said, complaints about pugstomps really dried up to a trickle after 4 mans were implemented.. Not right away, but over a few months those complaints are almost non existent compared to the height of pugstomping.

I THINK TEAMS SHOULD BE CELEBRATED IN THE GAME> caps bec its true. At its heart this game is about ALL the awesome pilots i have played with and against and teams, and their passion is the mechanism whereby this game can really shine DESPITE the devs.

It boils down to two queues.
You CAN say the player numbers cant support it, but I say the game CANT afford not to have it..
ANd its simple..

Solo queue.. that way you KNOW you werent beaten by a premade, just your team <and you> didnt play well enough to win.

Group queue<with solo filler> This is where id be as a pug. Each side when they drop, the teams are listed. Hell if we were a tiny bit creative there could be a small animation showing team x hitting the field, banner flying.

This creates choices that are almost impossible to complain about. Solos get solos only if they want. Groups get everything they want and solo pilots who dig that sort of thing can round out the teams. Its imperative that groups are displayed for transparency of perceived balance and fairness.
Not to mention, when we see how a particular group does in a match it does something magical . It shows pugs who have come along for the ride what is possible with teamwork, thereby building teams. and HOLY MOLY , promotes the game.


win win. eh.?

[Flying Judgement]

i missunderstod something big time LOL its not 2 vs 12 premades + PUGs ..........
its just the drop size form co-op till 12 and thats great what a lot of us been waiting for well my englis isnt my native language
my apology i hope the mach maker make the premade team difference no more than 3 mech and we are good to go.

Edited by Flying Judgement, 18 January 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

The whole topic is a missunderstanding XD lol spreading panic and disaster.

Russ was ansswering to doctor sap not to warchild.

i cant see a 12 vs pugs happening nor a 12vs2 + pug
But 12 vs 8 or 4+8 or 6+ 2 and thats absolutely fine. lol

tha main tittle is misleading.
i thought they want to unleash all premades on PUGs and a simple co-op is enough to get pair against a 12 man group so all 12 man group have a chanse to drop but its not the case hovever it could happen in teory but i can belive it could happen in reality
Sorry i misunder stod the whole stuff.
i may just drink a coffe before star reading posts next time.

[Yakatuus]

Mawai, on 16 January 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Wow .. I am not sure if the folks on either side of this argument really get it.

MWO needs to support variable sized groups AND it needs to support the solo player experience. End of story. Losing players from either category in large numbers will hit the MWO revenues no matter which way you look at it.

Large group players have had the 12 man queue to play with. Small group players have had the 4-man group. The only groups affected are 5 to 11 players. Back in 8 v 8 ... it was obvious when you were wiped by an 8-man pre-made. It also wasn't much fun and the same arguments were exchanged on the forums.

The key in this case will be the matchmaker .. one can pray they get it right ... but if done properly then an N-man group should be opposed by a group with N+/-1.

However, tonnage limits may be be a problem when dealing with less than 12 man groups unless a tonnage limit is enforced on any size of team when it is formed. The alternatives would involve forcing folks to swap mechs after the team is formed but before the drop until their team is the correct weight but how they can force folks to change mechs I don't know.

Perhaps they will impose a tonnage limit for EVERY size of group formed ... N * 50 tons for example ... thus all 4 man groups would have a 200 ton limit ... 2 victors with 2 locusts!

It will be interesting to see what PGI does ... but whatever it is I hope that it does not further alienate the remaining MWO players on either side of this discussion.

PGI has stated that individual groups will indeed be tonnage restricted. But also, the launch module is going to include dropships, so idk how that would work. Without integrated voice comms, PuGs are going to have a tough time with these weight restrictions and possibly not taking the mech you want. If you only have one mech, how are you going to put 4 mechs in a dropship?

Overall, however, this is a great change, even for big groups. It allows more people to play. No more 5th wheel. No more "we only have 11, oh well." The 12 man queue is a bit of a ghost town but when the new seasons and tourneys start up it should repopulate.

Edited by Yakatuus, 18 January 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Sephlock]

Upon further consideration, I do.

Pugs need to be massacred by PPCs and Autocannons before they'll shut up about how LRMs are "just right" or even "OP".

[Flying Judgement]

Yakatuus, on 18 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

PGI has stated that individual groups will indeed be tonnage restricted. But also, the launch module is going to include dropships, so idk how that would work. Without integrated voice comms, PuGs are going to have a tough time with these weight restrictions and possibly not taking the mech you want. If you only have one mech, how are you going to put 4 mechs in a dropship?

Overall, however, this is a great change, even for big groups. It allows more people to play. No more 5th wheel. No more "we only have 11, oh well." The 12 man queue is a bit of a ghost town but when the new seasons and tourneys start up it should repopulate.

i recomend u to look for answers in here
http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry3082286

[Ryoken]

mekabuser, on 17 January 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Solo queue.. that way you KNOW you werent beaten by a premade, just your team <and you> didnt play well enough to win.

I think a lot of solo pugger rage boils down to this. Hurt vanity and the paranoid assumption that it is always the evil premade out there that made them loose the game.

Till yet I have not seen any valid data that premades are the cause for 12 VS 0-2 defeats! They happened when there where 1-8 premades. they happen now with 1-4 premades. And I bet they will also happen in the solo que if there is going to be one some day. Simply because uncoordinated teams are uncoordinated and it is more likely the solo players will walk into the wrong spot one after one.

And also I think a lot of those antisocial no to teamplay players massively overestimate their impact on the outcome of the battle! This game is not counterstrike where you can headshot 5 other players with one clip if your reflexes are good. Your reaction gets toned down by the mechs moving speed and you have to hit an enemy several times to kill him. Also you do not have respawn, so after your hitpoints are gone you can not restart with fresh ones and keep on your 5 kills per clip killing spree. Your impact is just 1/12th of the team! Even if you are a very good player, and always drop with the best meta fitting heaviest mech (like HGN-733C nowadays) of the moment - you will hardly overcome a winratio of lets say 55 to 60%!

These numbers will not change by the number and size of premades that are randomly distrebuted by random or equaly among the two teams, if you drop solo! So there is no reason why solo playing players should have the right to tell the team oriented population of the server how big their teams should be. It is even absurd to demand prohibition of teamplay in a MMO.

The win loss ratios of team players however will be affected by bigger premade sizes! If you always play together with 7 friends, and you all are very bad players, your winratio will go down below to even 40-30%ish values. Because unlike the solo dropping player who always has a fresh chance of getting a better or worse team than the enemy team, you and your 7 bad playing friends always stick together and always drag down your chance of winning by your own bad play. Same goes the other way around if you form a team with 7 good playing friends who even might compensate your own bad playing.

So to sum it up:
Does premade size matter for winratio of solo dropping players? Answer is NO!
Does premade size matter for winratio of team dropping players? Answer is YES!

[Harmatia]

Roadbeer, on 16 January 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Sorry, but the ability to play with as many of my friends as possible trumps the hurt feelings of those who can't be bothered to form a group.

It may be cold, but the removal of min/max group forming has driven more people from this game than any other misstep since inception.

Sorry I don't believe any of that {Scrap}. Alienating one group to satisfy another, for whatever reason, is ******* stupid and leads to failure. Maybe that's why this game is so ******* screwed. The easiest solution to this particular problem is to create a system of 2, groups and solo. If you are capable of forming a group, or simply enjoy it, then you're going to be playing in a pool of 2-12 teams. If you don't typically play in groups, don't want to bother forming one, and just want to launch into a couple games by yourself, then you'll be matched from a pool of like-minded people.

But hey, if you and your ilk want to drop $500 on gold plated mechs and play within a pool bordering on ******, by all mean. Just don't try and get others to buy into your nonsense.

Zerberus, on 16 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Who wants this??

EVERYBODY that`s not in it solely for the single player experience.

And to those that WANT a single player experience at the price of screwing up the multiplayer experience, I have a few words:

Go find yourself a single player GAME, like solitaire.

I also have a few for you: elitism always ends in ruin.

[Troggy]

TL;DR: Stop being reactionary - find solutions. Ex: Multiply or add a coefficient of team size to the members of each team's Elo in the matchmaker calculation. That way large teams have to play against PUGs or small pre-mades of greater technical skill. It will make it fair, and may even prevent the team driven Elo inflation that current borks the matchmaker.

It seems to me that this is entirely the wrong discussion. People want to play in larger groups. The devs would be remiss in not catering to this large playerbase. The current situation is a stopgap, and I'm glad to hear PGI still recognizes that.

The discussion is how to facilitate this. A separate PUG queue is one potential idea, but I suspect that groups of 3 or 8 or 11 will complain just as vigourously about groups larger than themselves. I'm not personally a huge advocate of "fairness", and I certainly don't believe it will be more fun if every team has exactly the same tonnage, etc. And, I certainly don't mind the occasional blow out (if 100 out of 1000 matches are one-sided, that's variety, not catastrophe). That said, the potential 'ggclose' mechanic of 12 vs 1x12 is quite epic.

However, already, the match maker seems to pick teams first (which is good), and it seems likely that largest teams will get selected first, then the team built around them. This is good. I think the only change that may be required is a team size correction factor in Elo (see below).

I see no reason why ELO formulae cannot be adapted to correct for team size. All that is required is a multiplier (or additive constant) dependant on the premade size. It would both prevent Elo inflation of team players (currently making PUG matchs 'hard mode' for these players), and it would also mean a 12-man would be likely to find itself against a mixture of technically superior small groups and PUGs.

It's win-win.
--
Troggy

[Ryoken]

Harmatia, on 18 January 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

If you don't typically play in groups, don't want to bother forming one, and just want to launch into a couple games by yourself, then you'll be matched from a pool of like-minded people.

Erm entering an online game to play by yourself may be absolutely wrong in the first place?

So yeah, you and your like-minded people better stick to a single player game like solitaire!

Edit: Maybe you try the "Testing grounds" game mode, you can enter it and play by yourself all day long!

Harmatia, on 18 January 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Just don't try and get others to buy into your nonsense.

And you just don't try to put your nonsense idea of "a single player multi player online game" on others okay?

Edit: So yeah maybe two queues is the only solution.

Edited by Ryoken, 18 January 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[Roland]

mekabuser, on 17 January 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Roland. I dig just about everything you say, but ill disagree here.
Let me start by saying I am all for everything that groups want and i completely understand their need. Its also evident that the move from anything to 4 man did indeed put a HUGE dent in the group playerbase.

That being said, complaints about pugstomps really dried up to a trickle after 4 mans were implemented.. Not right away, but over a few months those complaints are almost non existent compared to the height of pugstomping.

Dude, how can you possibly say that? There are, routinely, threads on these forums to this day where people are complaining about premades.

It really never, ever, died down.

Quote

Solo queue.. that way you KNOW you werent beaten by a premade, just your team <and you> didnt play well enough to win.

I've been saying this for ages... there should be two queues.. a solo queue, and EVERYONE ELSE, with no grouping restrictions at all.

This is how most other games do it, and it works. Basically, the solo queue is the kiddy pool, and the normal queue is where real folks go to play, even if solo.

[Zerberus]

Flying Judgement, on 18 January 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

The whole topic is a missunderstanding XD lol spreading panic and disaster.
...
tha main tittle is misleading.

Of course it is, this is where Fox recruits its fear mongers.

Zensei, on 18 January 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Then who are you playing?

Just wondering 5 days without a drop

You really are a glutton for punishment, aren`t you ? Despite uninstalling specifically because of the forumwarriors being so mean to you, you keep stalking Roadbeer and coming back for more.

But don`t worry, we can keep this charade going as long as you can, more worthy challengers have come and failed just as miserably.

Edited by Zerberus, 18 January 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[Harmatia]

Ryoken, on 18 January 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Erm entering an online game to play by yourself may be absolutely wrong in the first place?

So yeah, you and your like-minded people better stick to a single player game like solitaire!

Edit: Maybe you try the "Testing grounds" game mode, you can enter it and play by yourself all day long!

And you just don't try to put your nonsense idea of "a single player multi player online game" on others okay?

Edit: So yeah maybe two queues is the only solution.

You need to twist my words to make a point? I never said anything about playing "by myself", obviously I'm not. To misread that you have to be completely ******* ********. Or you simply twisted wording. Do I need to rework it for you? Maybe write in pink crayon and scan my masterpiece? Would that make it easier to ******* comprehend?

My response was mainly directed at the holier than thou attitude too many people playing MWO have towards anything that is not in line with their own interests. You in particular would rather sacrifice population diversity and size in favour of a system that alienates every group but one. And for really no other reason than it is your wish to deny other people a difference in team formation. Or so your attitude is written.

Here let me try it again: I'd prefer an option to have MWO determine whom I'm playing with and construct the opposing team in the same fashion as an alternative to premade groups of any size. Does that work for you? Let me know, because I'll draw a picture if meaning is out of reach. Thanks.

[Sandpit]

Ok, I admit it. The only reason I play this game is to prey on weak inept pilots.

Even though I have no control over who I drop against