41 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Modo44, on 17 January 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

Correct. If the enemy is bad, BAP is not necessary. Neither is TAG, for that matter.

And if the enemy is good, you're dead anyway, so BAP is not necessary, but Tag has a little more use, but not much.

[Buckminster]

TAG has that benefit of getting you XP bonuses every time someone else dumps some missiles at your target.

[Charons Little Helper]

TAG clusters the missiles more and speeds lock-on. The clustering is great - gets you closer to pinpoint damage. It'd be worth taking even if it wasn't the only way to beat ECM at range.

Catapults fill a strange LRM role. (not quite fast enough to play LRM skirmisher - not quite big enough to boat)

Try something along these lines though - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...afc819a7b02afb0

LRM 40 with TAG is nothing to sniff at. And you really don't need heatsinks with LRMs - they're pretty heat efficient. Oh - and make sure that you fire all of the LRMs at once vs AMS.

Stick with buddies - and run when someone closes on you. Try to peel lights off onto your teammates.

Also - you might consider just dropping the medium from the above build for more ammo. A single medium laser isn't enough to scare off anyone.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 18 January 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

Always bring a TAG and BAP. Combined with Advance Sensor Range, you can start tracking mechs at 1000m.

TAG is an absolutely must, especially at higher ELOs, where the enemy team always have at least one ECM. I have seen more than my share of LRM boats do next to no damage the whole game cause the enemy team was doing the ECM Deathball.

Also, you must remember that ammo requirements go up the bigger the LRM you bring. Based on my own math, you need at least 8 tons of ammo to run 2xLRM15s for a sustained operation. For 2x LRM20s, it goes up to minimum of 10 tons.
Not to mention the cycle time also goes up.

[Kjudoon]

LRM Ammo rule of Thumb.

1 ton for every 5 tubes = 36 full volleys.

Volleys per ton by total tube count

5 = 36
10 = 18
15 = 12
20 = 9
30 = 6
40 = 4.5
50 = 3.6
60 = 3

Doing math in my head is not my strong suit, but this should be right or close enough to right.

As you can see then, with 30 tubes, for example, you want 6 tons of ammo to get you your 'base 36' shots. Why do I call this a base? Because 36 shots will keep you in most fights fairly effectively for a good proportion IF... LRMs have a solid backup weapon. If you just have 1 ML, you need more ammo. Probably double to make sure you aren't just bait or a very slow capper by end game.

You can also see the insanity of a 60 tube mech. 12 tons just to get the basic ammo in there. With 30 tons of launchers... yeesh! Of course, if you score a solid hit, whatever it was is dead because that is also 66 potential damage per shot. And God help you if someone scores a crit on that ammo. Not even CASE will help, because you're not running something like thhat unless you have an XL engine unless you have an insanely small Std engine.

Oh, and yes, I do bring TAG on the vast majority of my LRMboats unless the tonnage is spent better elsewhere. Particularly true on my medium LRM mechs where 1 ton is a big difference maker. Then again, I often run 97+ have JJ and back that up with a secondary weapon system of great functionality.

[CB Pilot]

Charons, you build has ammo in the side torso's with a XL engine. Again is this not a "Don't ever do it" kind of thing even with CASE?

That brings up another issue with the CAT, where to put ammo safely. If you take LRM15/20's then you use allot more ammo so where do you put it?

I would think that the arms or boxes would be the best bet since I thought I read the launchers will take the closest ammo to them first somewhere? So you will use up a ton in each arm hopefully before you get to the point of taking too much damage. But from my use so far the first things to go are the dam huge boxes and the LRMS so I am at a loss to where to put ammo at safely.

You are right about this mech not really being good at a true role compared to other mechs.

And I think the "maths" is about right guys but where to put the extra 2+ tons of ammo?

The back up weapon seems to help, I have found that some lights think I am a A1 with no back ups. So when I take a chunk of light leg armor out then at least they don't face hug or circle jerk me to death. That extra little defense can keep em off me a bit until help arrives, or I can peal them off on other mechs.

Honestly I think they need to remove the hideous add on boxes and scale them down to say Stalker size or make this mech much faster.

[DodgerH2O]

InsectMech, on 19 January 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Charons, you build has ammo in the side torso's with a XL engine. Again is this not a "Don't ever do it" kind of thing even with CASE?

That brings up another issue with the CAT, where to put ammo safely. If you take LRM15/20's then you use allot more ammo so where do you put it?

I would think that the arms or boxes would be the best bet since I thought I read the launchers will take the closest ammo to them first somewhere? So you will use up a ton in each arm hopefully before you get to the point of taking too much damage. But from my use so far the first things to go are the dam huge boxes and the LRMS so I am at a loss to where to put ammo at safely.

All those types of mech building rules have exceptions (other than Endo > FF)

Just looking at the build my guess would be that Charons likes to torso twist to spread damage and habitually turns the left side towards the enemy. That combined with the fact that people like to shoot off Catapult "Ears" makes a side torso one of the safer places. The CT on the Cat is a damage magnet. The Ears are easy to hit. I'd guess I die from side torso loss only when I've already taken so much damage that all of my components are toast.

Edited by DodgerH2O, 19 January 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[CB Pilot]

I really think this mech chassis is rather bad and I will never buy another variant let alone recommend one to another player.

I bought it because I liked the look of it, but the add on boxes ruined that and its too slow to be a streak light killer, its to small to be a real LRM boat. It has HUGE hit boxes, and very bad range of motion making it a bad LRM skirmisher.

Honestly it does not do anything that another mech does much better.

But if I want to play hard mode this is a good challenge.

[Kjudoon]

I'm sorry... I had my Sarcas-o-meter off for a moment. Now that I have it back on, could you repeat that?

[CB Pilot]

No meter needed, the only thing it is decent at is lobbing big salvo's from behind cover while keeping up with the pack.
Medium speed and indirect fire.

[Kjudoon]

InsectMech, on 24 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

No meter needed, the only thing it is decent at is lobbing big salvo's from behind cover while keeping up with the pack.
Medium speed and indirect fire.

Solid role player. It's not made for brawling, which is why the K2 is a glass cannon. This doesn't make it a bad mech, but requires you to work within its role. Ambush sniping, Indirect fire, long range support. Not every mech is a brawler or a scout. It's fast enough to backpedal away from slowboat stalkers, JJs give it great maeuverability. I can replicate my ON1-VA's loadout but with JJ and fewer shots, which doesn't bother me so much. Just play it for what it is. As for my LRMishing in it, I like it fine, but it is not the best at it like say a Shadowhawk or Griffin.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 January 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Orbit Rain]

Sorry haven't kept up with this thread insect, to reply to your earlier question. I'll just throw some thoughts out there:

Once you double the basics on this (or any) chassis, it becomes a different (and much better) mech. Unlock the extra module slot, and it gets better still. The only way you can "skirmish" in a (non-jester) cat is with an XL315 engine. You can go reasonably fast with a 300, but you have to keep making sacrifices as you decrease your speed, and play it differently for each engine size/loadout you use. (There's a view into what I think about gets sacrificed) I tell my guys get a 315 and go from there, there's actually a low engine cap on 65 tonners, relative to the mechs around them, so they're all kinda slow to begin with.

I started out not liking cats, then loving them, with current balance, feel they're balanced. I have 4 C1's 4 K2's and two each of the other cbill variants....For the C4, I have a "fast" and a "fat" (read:slow) version. the fast version is 2x10, 2x5, *no* Artemis, max engine/JJ, tag, ML, 384pts armor, BAP, ammo in the legs and another 4T ammo in the right torso. The torsos being so small, combined with the super low % chance of explosion make putting there a non-factor. The fat version has an XL255, 4 LRM10, *with* Artemis, 1JJ, BAP TAG/ML, 400pts armor, same amount of ammo.

The fast version(s) can get right out there and be a great squirrel, people see the big target and want to kill it, they will chase you right back into your fat friends. The slow version walks behind the fat guys, and lays a super-hurt on what it gets eyes on. It may not seem like it, but the differences in fire rates and spread ratios are huge. And you have to think about where the balance point is for your own playstyle. For most mechs, 20's spread too much for my liking (and on some mechs they make sense though) The tight spread + higher refire rate of the Artemis 10's are where it's at on a slow C4, so if you have the XL255, definitely give that a try. You aren't escaping from anything, and you have to be super-aware of not only whree the enemy is, but where your teammates are. This is where I see most new people f' up. Your team's main body never leaves you, you just lose track of where they are, and find yourself in a position that was once safe, now left out in the open to die. Positioning is a huge component of figuring the LRM game, and if you f' this up, you're dead. All these build guides you see here and there don't substitute for the experience that only you can implant in your own head. You don't have that experience, so you shouldn't be surprised that you're gonna get your *** handed to you for quite a while. Driving what I call a "drunk mech" doesn't help your cause.

I'll send you a friend invite, and we can get together on teamspeak if you want to talk about it.

[Kjudoon]

Orbit Rain, on 24 January 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Sorry haven't kept up with this thread insect, to reply to your earlier question. I'll just throw some thoughts out there:

Once you double the basics on this (or any) chassis, it becomes a different (and much better) mech. Unlock the extra module slot, and it gets better still. The only way you can "skirmish" in a (non-jester) cat is with an XL315 engine. You can go reasonably fast with a 300, but you have to keep making sacrifices as you decrease your speed, and play it differently for each engine size/loadout you use. (There's a view into what I think about gets sacrificed) I tell my guys get a 315 and go from there, there's actually a low engine cap on 65 tonners, relative to the mechs around them, so they're all kinda slow to begin with.

I started out not liking cats, then loving them, with current balance, feel they're balanced. I have 4 C1's 4 K2's and two each of the other cbill variants....For the C4, I have a "fast" and a "fat" (read:slow) version. the fast version is 2x10, 2x5, *no* Artemis, max engine/JJ, tag, ML, 384pts armor, BAP, ammo in the legs and another 4T ammo in the right torso. The torsos being so small, combined with the super low % chance of explosion make putting there a non-factor. The fat version has an XL255, 4 LRM10, *with* Artemis, 1JJ, BAP TAG/ML, 400pts armor, same amount of ammo.

The fast version(s) can get right out there and be a great squirrel, people see the big target and want to kill it, they will chase you right back into your fat friends. The slow version walks behind the fat guys, and lays a super-hurt on what it gets eyes on. It may not seem like it, but the differences in fire rates and spread ratios are huge. And you have to think about where the balance point is for your own playstyle. For most mechs, 20's spread too much for my liking (and on some mechs they make sense though) The tight spread + higher refire rate of the Artemis 10's are where it's at on a slow C4, so if you have the XL255, definitely give that a try. You aren't escaping from anything, and you have to be super-aware of not only whree the enemy is, but where your teammates are. This is where I see most new people f' up. Your team's main body never leaves you, you just lose track of where they are, and find yourself in a position that was once safe, now left out in the open to die. Positioning is a huge component of figuring the LRM game, and if you f' this up, you're dead. All these build guides you see here and there don't substitute for the experience that only you can implant in your own head. You don't have that experience, so you shouldn't be surprised that you're gonna get your *** handed to you for quite a while. Driving what I call a "drunk mech" doesn't help your cause.

I'll send you a friend invite, and we can get together on teamspeak if you want to talk about it.

I should have saved my Black Adder I love you for this post right here. Oh well premature adulation.

[Orbit Rain]

Kjudoon, on 24 January 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I should have saved my Black Adder I love you for this post right here. Oh well premature adulation.

lol, super-fun lrm ride is the JR7-D with two lrm5's (adjust JJ/Ammo/BAP to taste)

[CB Pilot]

It may not be the worst mech, but so far it is bad at any role for me anyway. The only redeeming fun with the mech is learning to use the Jump Jets to target in very specific situations. Most of the time if I jump to lock or re lock/TAG a target or to get just far enough back to use LRM's I will loose a box : (

I still will not recommend it with the state of LRMs atm.

Orbit Rain, I don't like the look of the "Running Toilets" (Jenners) so the are a no go for me. I mainly pilot Cicada's and Jenners can be as good if not better due to size, but they look like toilets to me sorry.

Now if the X-5 was available for CB the I would run that but I will not spend money on this game in its current state/direction.

Thank you for the help/info : )

Edited by InsectMech, 24 January 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Orbit Rain, on 24 January 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

lol, super-fun lrm ride is the JR7-D with two lrm5's (adjust JJ/Ammo/BAP to taste)

Hey! GMTA! I do something very similar.

[Buckminster]

InsectMech, on 24 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

It may not be the worst mech, but so far it is bad at any role for me anyway. The only redeeming fun with the mech is learning to use the Jump Jets to target in very specific situations. Most of the time if I jump to lock or re lock/TAG a target or to get just far enough back to use LRM's I will loose a box : (

I still will not recommend it with the state of LRMs atm.

Orbit Rain, I don't like the look of the "Running Toilets" (Jenners) so the are a no go for me. I mainly pilot Cicada's and Jenners can be as good if not better due to size, but they look like toilets to me sorry.

Now if the X-5 was available for CB the I would run that but I will not spend money on this game in its current state/direction.

Thank you for the help/info : )

So exactly what kind of load out are you running? I've generally been a fan of my Catapults - the only reason they've been sitting is that I have all sorts of Phoenix mechs to master. Even with that though, I've dusted off the old A1 and have been running with that lately (2 ALRM15s, 4 SSRMs, XL245 engine) with a lot of success. I'd think that the C4 would be just as lethal.

I will say that I typically run big XLs on my Cats - the 300 is my go to. I've been using a 245 (a Raven leftover) on the A1 so that I could jam the 15s on there with 4 Streaks. I originally just had 10s, and was underwhelmed.

But back to the C4... It loses two missile points but gains two energy points. So here's something to try: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e82b427c398fcda

Normally I'd say that you have to have TAG if you have an energy point. But in the torso location TAG is harder to use, and it also leaves you with a lot less options for that other torso energy weapon. That large laser will also give some unexpected punch to compliment the streaks up close, or a direct shot to enemies that are going to get to cover before your missiles can hit them. And with the 300 and the jump jets, you should be able to get yourself out of trouble if necessary.

I'd set it up with 4 weapon groups - both LRMs, chainfired LRMs, Streaks, and Large Laser. The chainfire option is important, it lets you fire a single LRM 15 to make people move without dumping 30 missiles down range. 3 tons of LRM ammo is a little light, but again that LL will help make up for that. The key thing is to be careful with your shots - if you stay back and fill the air with missiles, you'll soon find yourself without any ammo and nothing to show for it.

Edited by Buckminster, 27 January 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[Red Line Pilot]

Mmm, what about this. Forget the LRM platform. Go splashing.

Srm's might be kinda hard to use atm, but as long as you are hitting big targets it should be OK

CPLT-C4

4x Artemis SRM6
1x Large Laser
4 JJ
XL 300
14 DHS

[zudukai]

http://www.mechspecs...hp?topic=5325.0
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b425be4fcb4cd87

http://www.mechspecs...hp?topic=5324.0
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...39649702f09851c

you NEED moar ppc.

[CB Pilot]

Red Line, I tried SRM's but I am in California so my ping is always 120+ ish and I seem to be affected by hit detection issues with SRM's. I even have issues with ballistics mainly LBX pellets but until they fix HSR or whatever causes this issue for me I will not use SRM's, but thank you for your build advice.

Zudukai, sorry about my mistake in the title, but I was looking for C4 builds. Again thank you for your advice but I do not think I will but another variant of this chassis.