40 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 17 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

At the cost of how much tonnage? We get it for free, which abuses the TT armor mechanics with frontloaded damage+pinpoint convergence+absolute precision without any cost.

Thats just the point our present accuracy should be reserved for mechs with ATCPUs which pay the price for the accuracy. You should have noticed I am not a supporter of how convergence is working.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Skyfaller, on 17 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

The Gauss 'charge up' fire delay is excellent and I'd like to see it applied to the PPCs.

The PPC requiring a charge up delay would balance the weapon rather nicely. Being an unlimited ammo and only 7 tons and 3 slots has to be counterbalanced by something (10 heat really isn't that much of a counterbalance in an FPS game as it was in TT).

The charge up feature does need a little improvement however... it is very hard to know when its ready to fire as in the middle of a fight the sound gets drowned out. A visible indicator in the HUD would be appreciated.

Something to think about:
If you give the PPCs a charge up delay like the Gauss, then they are synchronized again and can fire with ease together. You can already do this manually but if you were to do something along these lines, the charge would have to be longer with a different window than the Gauss so they don't overlap.

I don't really want to see a charge in either weapon though. I'd rather see convergence addressed through splash damage or some other means.

[Fnarrly]

I would not mind the charge mechanic so bad, if it did not time out so quickly. You should be able to "hold" the charge for at least a few seconds before it winds down and has to charge again, at the cost of increased damage from it taking a crit while holding a charge perhaps.

[LastPaladin]

Nryrony, on 17 January 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

This is mostly a problem for Assault mechs, because even with thier tonnage capability they are simply heat capped. Even if they have sufficient tonnage they simply can not equip eough heatsinks to cool these weapons. And this is a big problem.

A possible solution here is to make single heats sinks more effective. An assault could then use their advantage of slots (since they don't need endo/ff to get a good weapon loadout) to get enough sinks to handle the load. Right now, everyone is stuck using DHS, so the assaults can only mount a couple more heat sinks compared to a heavy, when their weapons may generate 50% more heat.

[Nryrony]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

A possible solution here is to make single heats sinks more effective. An assault could then use their advantage of slots (since they don't need endo/ff to get a good weapon loadout) to get enough sinks to handle the load. Right now, everyone is stuck using DHS, so the assaults can only mount a couple more heat sinks compared to a heavy, when their weapons may generate 50% more heat.

Exactly.

[Warblood]

IMHO the charge up was a great idea for the Gauss Rifle, they just need to add a big charge bar next to the corsair, and they need to double the effective range from 660m to 990or1200m capping out at 2000m. this will make the Gauss Rifle into the sniper rifle that many would like to see it as.

As for the PPC, it needs to be changed from pinpoint to splash damage. Let it do 50% pinpoint and the other 50% spreads across the left n right adjacent sections of the mech..

Ex:
1) If you hit the CT,CT will take 5dam n the LT n RT take 2.5dam each. applies to back also.
2) If you hit a Arm (lets say right arm), arm takes 5dam , front n back on RT both take 2.5 dam each.
3) If you hit a Side Torso (lets say right again), RT takes 5dam, CT takes 2.5 n right arm takes 2.5dam. applies to back also.
4) If you hit a Leg, leg takes 5dam, side torso takes 2.5 n CT takes 2.5dam. applies t back also. (or made 2 apply to this)

If that feels too nerfed you could always add a "soft-spot buff" to PPCs. When target is hit with a PPC, targets armor is softened for the next 4sec(same as PPC cool down) allowing for 10% more damage to areas effected by the PPC. Multiple PPCs would not stack the %dam, but instead add 1sec each on the spot timer. (ex: 1ppc= 4sec, 2ppc=5, 3=6 and so on)

This would give both the Gauss & PPCs a role in this game, and as we all know "role warfare" is almost non existent.

If you don't know what role warfare is, its picking and building a mech to fill a role on the field:
Scout, Striker, Support, Missile Boat, Sniper, Battle/Assault, Frontline/Brawler, Skirmisher, Juggernaut.

For more info on role warfare check out this link. http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Role_Warfare

Edited by Warblood, 17 January 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

darkchylde, on 17 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Clearly, you aren't aware how battletech works.

LOL, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about Joe!

[Villz]

oldradagast, on 17 January 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Disagree.

All the Gauss delay has achieved is basically removing the Gauss rifle from the game. Oh, it'll show up a handful of times, but it is one of the rarest weapons on the field (silly things like NARC excluded.)

If you do this to PPC's, you basically remove them from the game as well, finishing off the last useful energy weapon and ensuring that the game is nothing but AC madness with a few medium lasers tossed in.

wrong

[Mindwyrm]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

I almost agree with you, but as we seem to think a Gauss is a Sniper gun the delay is counter to that being so.

I can not tell you how many times I've tried to take a shot at someone over 1100m away and they've already moved behind cover or through the area I'm covering before my gauss can get charged up. I've pretty much given up on it. I only use it occasionally. For ballistic sniping i've replaced it with AC5 or multiple AC2. A lot less damage, but some damage is better than not even getting the shot off. They placed the charge mechanic in to make it more sniperish? What a fraggin joke. Except for a handful of situations, it's harder to get your hit than ever.

I watched your video Villz. First off, excellent display of marksmanship. Second off, your a bad person to be arguing for the charge up. Being in the top 1% of the ELO just makes the point that it's an super skill weapon. I do have to ask how many of your fellow teammates have dropped that 2x PPC+Gauss build and replaced it with 2x PPC+2x (U)AC5?

Edited by Mindwyrm, 18 January 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[MWNoob]

Mindwyrm, on 18 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I can not tell you how many times I've tried to take a shot at someone over 1100m away and they've already moved behind cover or through the area I'm covering before my gauss can get charged up. I've pretty much given up on it. I only use it occasionally. For ballistic sniping i've replaced it with AC5 or multiple AC2. A lot less damage, but some damage is better than not even getting the shot off. They placed the charge mechanic in to make it more sniperish? What a fraggin joke. Except for a handful of situations, it's harder to get your hit than ever.

I watched your video Villz. First off, excellent display of marksmanship. Second off, your a bad person to be arguing for the charge up. Being in the top 1% of the ELO just makes the point that it's an super skill weapon. I do have to ask how many of your fellow teammates have dropped that 2x PPC+Gauss build and replaced it with 2x PPC+2x (U)AC5?

i just dropped the 2x PPC+2x(U)AC5 build and went back to the 2x PPC+Gauss build. It really doesnt take that long to get good at synching the Gauss charge up with your PPCs.... And you can use the extra tonnage for more DHS or JJs.

[Skyfaller]

Mindwyrm, on 18 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I can not tell you how many times I've tried to take a shot at someone over 1100m away and they've already moved behind cover or through the area I'm covering before my gauss can get charged up. I've pretty much given up on it. I only use it occasionally. For ballistic sniping i've replaced it with AC5 or multiple AC2. A lot less damage, but some damage is better than not even getting the shot off. They placed the charge mechanic in to make it more sniperish? What a fraggin joke. Except for a handful of situations, it's harder to get your hit than ever.

I run a dual gauss Jager and yes, it is difficult but not THAT hard. The charge is balanced in my view precisely because it prevents the peek&shoot&cover that happens in half a second with PPC and AC's. Its an almost perfect balance to the weapon's lethality.

Imo, the PPC should have the same charge up delay and the AC's should all fire in burst (like five AC2s firing using the macro to shoot each gun in sequence 0.2s apart).

Putting PPC as splash damage hit is an interesting concept but not very practical. It essentially becomes an SRM4 or 6 with very long range and no ammo cost.

[Mindwyrm]

I'm happy for everyone that can still use the gauss rifle. It is a very good weapon. I still do not think that the charge up system is the right fix. I think it's entirely to klunky. For all the people out there that defend it, it still does not change the fact that it has caused a dramatic decrease in gauss usage. I used to see at least one gauss every drop. Now months later as people get used to it, I see it approximately one in ten matches. Which is way up from never.

I've heard all the reasons why to keep it. It makes it more of a role weapon, it feels more like shooting a rifle, ect. I just don't agree with them.

[Skyfaller]

Mindwyrm, on 19 January 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

I'm happy for everyone that can still use the gauss rifle. It is a very good weapon. I still do not think that the charge up system is the right fix. I think it's entirely to klunky. For all the people out there that defend it, it still does not change the fact that it has caused a dramatic decrease in gauss usage. I used to see at least one gauss every drop. Now months later as people get used to it, I see it approximately one in ten matches. Which is way up from never.

I've heard all the reasons why to keep it. It makes it more of a role weapon, it feels more like shooting a rifle, ect. I just don't agree with them.

If it had escaped your notice, the Gauss is listed as 'Gauss RIFLE' . That is what it is. A long range, high precision, high velocity, high damage weapon.

There was a dramatic decrease because people can no longer use it as a zero heat instant-fire weapon to brawl in someone's face with nor can they link it to fire at the same time as the PPC for poptarting and other goodness.

Ive been playing and switching between the 'meta-boat' builds:

2 AC20 Jager
2 Gauss Jager
3 AC2 (macro fired), 3MG, 2 ML Jager
Quad PPC stalker

Dual AC20 is insanely lethal. An enemy stumbles upon you 50m away and its snap-shot aim and shoot. Even with ghost heat, firing both at once can still be followed up by chain fired dual AC20. This weapon can no longer be used to snipe (lowered bullet speed was a good change) but in-your-face brawling it still is the I-Win OP weapon of choice.

Dual Gauss is much harder to use in a brawl due to the charge timer however once you get used to it, it is an OK weapon. The charge delay and reload time plus the explosive nature of the gauss rifle makes it iffy as a brawling weapon.

The AC2 macro fired is absolutely brutal at very long range and at short range. It is a bad weapon for brawling because you are facing people that pump 10 to 20 damage into you in one hit and into one location (PPC/AC20/AC10/Gauss) and at long range (900-1200m) you still face the problem of the instant-fire-damage ER PPCs that can peek/poptart fire and hide. The AC2 on macro fire has to hold its aim for 0.6 seconds for the 3 bullet burst to fire off (each gun fires 0.2s after the previous one per burst of 3 rounds).

Quad PPC is still the same absurd thing, even with ghost it is very viable. 2 ERs 2 PPCs and heat control and being aware of distances to fire each or all 4 together is very easy. The results even better.

If the PPC and AC5s onward fired in burst mode like the macro'd AC2s we wouldnt have the meta of boating the biggest autocannon for snap-shot brawling. Their damage would spread around more due to aim/mech movement. If PPCs were given the same charge delay as the Gauss they'd be balanced as long range weapons...theyre not heavy they have unlimited ammo and still do 10 damage.

In short, it'd be a lot closer to TT than DOOM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

The AC2 macro fired is absolutely brutal at very long range and at short range. It is a bad weapon for brawling because you are facing people that pump 10 to 20 damage into you in one hit and into one location (PPC/AC20/AC10/Gauss) and at long range (900-1200m) you still face the problem of the instant-fire-damage ER PPCs that can peek/poptart fire and hide. The AC2 on macro fire has to hold its aim for 0.6 seconds for the 3 bullet burst to fire off (each gun fires 0.2s after the previous one per burst of 3 rounds).

Have you tried this one lately? Doesn't work anymore with the ghost heat system beyond around 3 seconds before overheating. It was brutal in it's day purely from a screen shake/smoke/fire in your opponent's face kind of way, but not any different from a DPS standpoint compared to just firing all AC2s in a group alpha.

For those arguing to give PPCs the same charge-up as the Gauss rifle...don't you see that it will make poptarting with the PPC/Gauss combo easier than it is right now? Villz may not need his PPCs and Gauss on the same timer as he can make it work either way, but giving PPCs the same charge-up will make it easier for everyone to land a 35 pinpoint alpha rather than the current 30 point alpha with 2PPCs and 2AC5s. So, what is really the goal here, to make it easier for average players to compete with the top players, which means propagating more poptarting and pinpoint alphas, or make it harder for average players to compete, because top players will always find a work-around to the mechanics introduced?

[Gorgo7]

Villz, on 17 January 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

wrong

Wow...quite a demonstration! Thank you!

[Corvus Antaka]

I have no problems with 2 ERPPC & 1 gauss. it's still very powerful and the 0 heat of the gauss is very useful. Just need to practice it is all.

its better fire them seperately to hit the same location unless your shooting stationary objects though.

[Skyfaller]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 20 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Have you tried this one lately? Doesn't work anymore with the ghost heat system beyond around 3 seconds before overheating. It was brutal in it's day purely from a screen shake/smoke/fire in your opponent's face kind of way, but not any different from a DPS standpoint compared to just firing all AC2s in a group alpha.

Yes I have. 3 AC2s with a 0.57s delay. It works just fine. Scoring 1000+ damage maps where you can sit and pump lead into far away enemies. However under 200m you get plastered by the dual ac20's / quad ac5s / quad ppcs because they can shoot their wad and turn around to spread their incoming damage.. AC2 user has to keep nose on target while firing.

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 20 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

For those arguing to give PPCs the same charge-up as the Gauss rifle...don't you see that it will make poptarting with the PPC/Gauss combo easier than it is right now? Villz may not need his PPCs and Gauss on the same timer as he can make it work either way, but giving PPCs the same charge-up will make it easier for everyone to land a 35 pinpoint alpha rather than the current 30 point alpha with 2PPCs and 2AC5s. So, what is really the goal here, to make it easier for average players to compete with the top players, which means propagating more poptarting and pinpoint alphas, or make it harder for average players to compete, because top players will always find a work-around to the mechanics introduced?

Not if the PPC charge up is different timer than the Gauss. Gauss charge is 0.5 seconds before its charged up and then u have 1 second to fire it. The PPC could be the opposite: 1 second charge up time, 1 second to fire it.

That alone would make the different projectile speeds difficulty to poptart at a moving target and harder to pull while brawling.

[Mindwyrm]

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

If it had escaped your notice, the Gauss is listed as 'Gauss RIFLE' . That is what it is. A long range, high precision, high velocity, high damage weapon.

There was a dramatic decrease because people can no longer use it as a zero heat instant-fire weapon to brawl in someone's face with nor can they link it to fire at the same time as the PPC for poptarting and other goodness.

Dual Gauss is much harder to use in a brawl due to the charge timer however once you get used to it, it is an OK weapon. The charge delay and reload time plus the explosive nature of the gauss rifle makes it iffy as a brawling weapon.

Yes. I realize it's called the Gauss RIFLE. And yes it's Long range, High velocity, high damage weapon. Everything is a precision weapon in this game though. NONE of that explains the charge-up bull-$4I7.

I'm sure the competitive players and the meta-builders stopped using the Gauss rifle because of it's harder to poptart and doesn't work well with the PPC. Unfortunately there isn't enough of either to account for the dramatic drop of the gauss rifle. And it's left to the very top tier, like Villz, JagerXII and that level of player to still do it.

Quite frankly it's {Scrap}. And many of the people I see defending the charge up, don't use the gauss very often. Don't read that as I'm saying You don't use it, or that nobody defending it uses it. I'm just referring to the people I know and play with.

[Krujiente]

I am ONLY for a PPC charge time for when they put in PPC capacitors which in the core rules you had to charge it (and could hold it at the cost of 5 heat per cycle) until firing it for an additional 5 heat. PPCs don't need that, there's no reason to do that.

[Krujiente]

Nryrony, on 17 January 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I disagre, not about the charge mechanic but about the heat. All energy weapons lack dps, even if you would be 100% cooling efficent, they are already in a huge disadvantage.

And PPCs , they are the hottest weapons ingame, especially the er ppcs. Due to the inefficency of Heatsinks, most mechs can only use 2 regular ppcs efficiently.

This is mostly a problem for Assault mechs, because even with thier tonnage capability they are simply heat capped. Even if they have sufficient tonnage they simply can not equip eough heatsinks to cool these weapons. And this is a big problem.

to be fair the PPC has the same weight/damage ratio as the AC20, 2 PPCs = AC20 damage, and AC20 weight. Just at an enormous heat penalty. PPCs are pretty good, its just that yeah, energy boats especially Assaults that need to use PPCs can't use them to keep up with the mixed loadouts and gunboats.